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Feasibility of Florida-Chicago Train via Atlanta, Nashville, Louisvill


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#41 Woodcut60

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 10:49 AM

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

 

Chicago         8:50 AM      5:00 PM

Indianapolis   6:15 AM      9:30 PM

Louisville       4:10 AM     11:40 PM

Nashville      12:20 AM      3:30 AM

Atlanta           6:50 PM      9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM      3:10 PM

Miami             6:00 AM      9:50 PM

 

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami.  It also only uses three train sets.  Realistic?  Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

 

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma

I too would ride this train any time.


Amtrak Routes Traveled: Lake Shore Limited, California Zephyr, San Joaquin, Pacific Surfliner, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Cardinal, Crescent, Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief, Hiawatha, City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, Heartland Flyer, Missouri River Runner, Lincoln, Wolverine, Northeast Regional, Acela Express, Downeaster, Vermonter, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Capitol Limited, Pennsylvanian.

Other Routes in North America: Denali Star (Alaska Railroad).

Approx. 25,000 miles and 47 states.


#42 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 11:52 AM

 

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

 

Chicago         8:50 AM      5:00 PM

Indianapolis   6:15 AM      9:30 PM

Louisville       4:10 AM     11:40 PM

Nashville      12:20 AM      3:30 AM

Atlanta           6:50 PM      9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM      3:10 PM

Miami             6:00 AM      9:50 PM

 

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami.  It also only uses three train sets.  Realistic?  Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

I think the question is whether this train is scheduled more for end to end traffic or the intermediate markets. If you want to bring back service to areas which haven't had service since the late 70's (Louisville and Nashville) then having it scheduled during the graveyard shift is going to be a hard sell to these areas (or you can use the theory they will be happy just to have a train). 

 

Looking at the gaps between cities not counting JAX-MIA (ORL is in the middle), the largest gap is between ATL-JAX. Ideally the graveyard shift would be between there but a 6am arrival into JAX puts it pretty close to the Silver Star (although if it skips TPA it would arrive MIA significantly earlier than the SS). There is a 5.5 hr gap southbound (not counting the time difference) between ATL and Nashville but that would put it either after midnight on one end and/or before 6am on the other.

 

The ideal southbound schedule in Florida to give passengers a choice in times would either be the proposed schedule arriving in ORL/MIA at night (but leaving Louisville and Nashville in the dark) or to arrive in ORL early and MIA around lunchtime (it would help train to cruise traffic which I have heard some are looking for). That would put JAX in the graveyard shift but that might not be as bad since they have two trains already (but any possibility of ATL-JAX traffic goes away). If you flipped the southbound schedule 12 hrs that leaves CHI at 5am. Push it so it leaves CHI at 7am you get Louisville 11:30AM,  1:40PM, Nashville 5:30PM, ATL 11:00PM, JAX 5:10AM (not too bad), MIA 11:50AM (assumedly ORL around 7:30-8am). Then CHI-ATL becomes an all day affair with no chance to sleep it off so that would hurt business between the two cities.

 

Northbound if you flip it 12 hours you get an evening departure from MIA (current Silvers are both morning) with only JAX during the graveyard shift (and 12:45am isn't that bad). Again, ATL-CHI is an all day affair.

 

Other than Louisville & Nashville, the other potential I see is ATL-JAX-MIA service. The schedule suggested between ATL and MIA would fit very well with the Crescent, perhaps as through cars (southbound can always be pushed back but northbound could be a problem unless you put MIA before 6am). Of course considering how things are in ATL now good luck with that.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
 


#43 WICT106

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:23 PM

Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.
As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.
BHM - Columbus, Ga - Tifton has also been seriously downgraded in Ga and Cof Ga in Alabama not in great shape..
BHM - LaGrange, Ga - Manchester - Old ACL line to JAX. Now that is a possibility however the CSX Lineville sub is very busy with BOW line reroutes both from BHM and Mobile for Haz Mat.

I would route the train BHM - Montgomery - Bainbridge - Tallahassee - JAX, of only to claim that the train reached Florida earlier. 


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#44 maxbuskirk

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:18 PM

Just stop the train at Pensacola :P

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#45 brianpmcdonnell17

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:52 AM

I think the best schedule and routing is NS from ATL-JAX and that being the overnight section. JAX is a servicing stop so early arriving trains sometimes spend 45 minutes there already. There are two platform tracks available so I think the best solution is to schedule the train from Chicago and the SS to arrive at the same time in both directions and hold there for 1-2 hours to allow for connections. The Chicago train could then be sent down the FEC and people from both the NEC and Chicago could access any station on the Florida peninsula either directly or via a cross platform transfer at JAX. Service would also be restored to the FEC without any lost service. On the sections of the route with Brightline trains, the stops can be discharge only southbound and receive only northbound to help gain cooperation from FEC. However, for this to work the schedule needs to be at least 1 1/2 hours faster CHI-ATL than the original post in this thread.

Edited by brianpmcdonnell17, 05 January 2017 - 09:56 AM.

Trains travelled: Capitol Limited WAS-CHI, Carolinian CLT-RGH, Coast Starlight SJC-LAX, Crescent BAL-ATL, Empire Builder MSP-CHI, Empire Service NYP-NFL, Lake Shore Limited BOS-ALB, Maple Leaf ALB-NYP, Northeast Regional FBG-RVR+WAS-BOS, Pacific Surfliner LAX-ANA, Piedmont RGH-DNC, Silver Meteor ORL-NYP, Silver Star FTL-WAS, 2016 Autumn Express NYP-HAR-NYP

Upcoming New Routes: Pennsylvanian NYP-PGH (July), Cardinal CHI-WAS (July), Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI (December), California Zephyr CHI-RIC (December), Coast Starlight SJC-SEA (December), Empire Builder SEA-MSP (January).

Non Amtrak: Atlanta Streetcar, Caltrain, CTA, DC Streetcar, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, LIRR, MARC, MARTA, MBTA Subway, Metra, Metrolink, METRO Transit Light Rail, Miami Metrorail, Muni Metro, NJT Commuter Rail, North Star, NYC Subway, PATH, River Line (NJT), SEPTA Regional Rail, SEPTA Subway, South Shore Line, Sunrail, TECO Streetcar, Tri-Rail, Washington Metro

#46 west point

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 01:00 PM

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:
 
Chicago         8:50 AM      5:00 PM
Indianapolis   6:15 AM      9:30 PM
Louisville       4:10 AM     11:40 PM
Nashville      12:20 AM      3:30 AM
Atlanta           6:50 PM      9:00 AM
Jacksonville 12:45 PM      3:10 PM
Miami             6:00 AM      9:50 PM
 
By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami.  It also only uses three train sets.  Realistic?  Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.
 
Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma


If you think your schedule would work look at this schedule of the 1951 Royal Palm. TODAY it could all combine / split at Cincinnati. It was A SOU RR express CIN <> JAX. Just servicing and crew change locations. with that long of a train this poster wonders how it navigated the CHA terminal station back in ? The poor track CHI <> CIN today would need improving but it also covers the 3C corridor. If all connections are called the Royal Palm or another name might work just like Builder split at Spokane being over 750 miles? Once again many more cars needed. At least 5 train sets ?
Note 5 sleepers from Detroit. Detroit would not support that many now ? Also coaches, diner & lounge to MIA. Be sure to read carefully as some other RR's cars to CIN connected to other SOU trains including some to Tampa. Maybe a STL - Nashville <> CHA connecting Royal Palm train ?
EDIT:: NS's rat hole division should be faster today than this schedule ?. Also CIN cithy owns CIN- CHA that might work much like the NC DOT's work ? Also the relationship to a Cardinal might be considered ?

http://www.streamlin...palm195103.html

Edited by west point, 05 January 2017 - 01:58 PM.


#47 west point

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 02:27 PM

Maybe a daily Cardinal could carry Royal Palm cars to CIN ? + eastbound Cardinal could carry passengers to / from the south ?
Would give Hialeah a quicker connection to the BEE shop ?

Edited by west point, 05 January 2017 - 02:29 PM.


#48 neroden

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:06 AM

OK, these are the cities to pitch it to:
(1) Cincinnati, the owner of the route
(2) Chatanooga, which for touristy reasons would like a train back
(3) Lexington
But I think it's dependent on better service from Cincy north.
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#49 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 11:30 AM

Perhaps this is a sign of progress? https://csanders429....lorida-service/


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
 


#50 west point

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 12:39 PM

Believe that for minimum costs ( still many bucks ) attach cars to a daily Cardinal to Cincinnati then use NS route to CHA - ATL - JAX ( Old Royal Palm ) and then regular route to MIA. ~ 840 miles of a new route. Then later add Nashville - Chattanooga connecting cars.

#51 Palmetto

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:00 PM

This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general.  And splitting trains.  Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously.  New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.  



#52 west point

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:46 PM

Do not forget the Spokane shuffle.

Cincinnati station is ? was laid out for making easy connections s, splitting , combining trains,

Although have not been there for years this is how it was set up at one time. From east to west. Cannot say for sure just how many passenger tracks are left.
1. Track,
2 station platform
3, track with connecting switches to #5
5. storage track with switches on both ends connecting to tracks listed on #3 & #5
6. track with connecting switches to #5
7. platform
8. Repeat the layout however any more platforms have now been removed.

This arrangement will make it the easiest station to interchange / rebuild trains of any layout. Albany certainly is not laid out that well. Also station concourse over tracks had stairs both to north and south speeding up passenger transits.

#53 dlagrua

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:51 PM

If the Floridian service would ever be resurrected it would have to use the original route. That's where the stations are located as in Louisville and Nashville but there is a big stumbling block. Much of that route has old downgraded L & N RR class I freight track good for 10 mph?  A major track upgrade would be needed and who is going to pay for it?  Slow freights probably serve the railroad well for now.



#54 west point

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:56 PM

For those who do not understand the Atlanta Howell tower problem suggest you check the link posted here. You will have to zoom in 9 - 11 times centering on Atlanta then the area north of 5 points. Check hhow close the yards are to Howell using the scale.
The tracks to Howell from the south are two - 2MTs, 2 NS to west and 2 to east CSX. The track that is NS from NE is 2 MT. 1 NS MT from NW + 2 yard tracks from Inman NS then 2MT CSX that includes yard leads from Tilford yard then the single track from north of CSX (SAL) at Howells transfer. Just a great bowl of spaghetti.
A close examination of times for Crescent ATL <> Anniston run from 25 minutes early to 15 - 30 minutes late. This poster would guess that any time between those 2 stations that is 25 minutes early or less to 30 minutes late 90% of delays are at Howell.


http://fragis.fra.do...v/GISFRASafety/

Edited by west point, 18 March 2017 - 07:09 PM.


#55 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 05:31 AM

This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general.  And splitting trains.  Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously.  New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.  

 

Case in point: The through cars between the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian. The PRIIA had suggested it back in 2010, it would add no equipment, fuel, or track rental. Yet Amtrak still hasn't done it.

 

 

 


If you think your schedule would work look at this schedule of the 1951 Royal Palm. TODAY it could all combine / split at Cincinnati. It was A SOU RR express CIN <> JAX. Just servicing and crew change locations. with that long of a train this poster wonders how it navigated the CHA terminal station back in ? The poor track CHI <> CIN today would need improving but it also covers the 3C corridor. If all connections are called the Royal Palm or another name might work just like Builder split at Spokane being over 750 miles? Once again many more cars needed. At least 5 train sets ?
Note 5 sleepers from Detroit. Detroit would not support that many now ? Also coaches, diner & lounge to MIA. Be sure to read carefully as some other RR's cars to CIN connected to other SOU trains including some to Tampa. Maybe a STL - Nashville <> CHA connecting Royal Palm train ?
EDIT:: NS's rat hole division should be faster today than this schedule ?. Also CIN cithy owns CIN- CHA that might work much like the NC DOT's work ? Also the relationship to a Cardinal might be considered ?

http://www.streamlin...palm195103.html

 

 

Probably the only reason I would hesitate in canceling the Cardinal is that Cincinnati would lose its service. If this train ever came to plan it would be a better use of the Chicago-Cincinnati leg and I would have no reason to want to keep it. Hopefully a new Royal Palm CHI-Florida CIN would get better times and/or daily service. 


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
 


#56 A Voice

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 06:39 AM

 

This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general.  And splitting trains.  Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously.  New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.  

 

Case in point: The through cars between the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian. The PRIIA had suggested it back in 2010, it would add no equipment, fuel, or track rental. Yet Amtrak still hasn't done it.

 

How would it not require additional equipment?  You'd have to send at least a coach (several more cars) from the current Pennsylvanian on west to Chicago, but more importantly, unless it were a coach-only through train you would also need three (minimum) Viewliner sleepers which Amtrak simply doesn't have (but will shortly).  

 

As for Chicago to Florida service, a split at Cincinnati would only serve to further increase the utility of the Cardinal; There is no call for your continuing to attack such a hypothetical service.  


Edited by A Voice, 11 April 2017 - 06:41 AM.


#57 Anderson

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 01:40 AM

 

 

This is good, but someone has pointed out that Amtrak has an aversion for adding and dropping cars, in general.  And splitting trains.  Don't know if that is actually true or not, but given the Albany shuffle for the Lake Shore Limited, it's pretty evident that perhaps they just don't know how to do this maneuver expeditiously.  New Haven used to change out an engine in 7 minutes, and we were on our way.  

 

Case in point: The through cars between the Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian. The PRIIA had suggested it back in 2010, it would add no equipment, fuel, or track rental. Yet Amtrak still hasn't done it.

 

How would it not require additional equipment?  You'd have to send at least a coach (several more cars) from the current Pennsylvanian on west to Chicago, but more importantly, unless it were a coach-only through train you would also need three (minimum) Viewliner sleepers which Amtrak simply doesn't have (but will shortly).  

 

As for Chicago to Florida service, a split at Cincinnati would only serve to further increase the utility of the Cardinal; There is no call for your continuing to attack such a hypothetical service.  

 

I've got the PIP up right now.  It says that it would need 3 Viewliner sleepers, 2 Amfleet II coaches, and an Amfleet food service car.  That would run two Amfleet coaches and the cafe off the current train through to CHI, and add a sleeper to the Pennsylvanian.  The expectation was that this could be done within the context of the Viewliner II order...*cries*...due in FY13.


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#58 railiner

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 12:34 AM

Why would they run the cafe to Chicago?  Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe?  You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...


metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#59 jis

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 10:14 AM

Why would they run the cafe to Chicago?  Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe?  You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...

To provide food service to the single level portion without the need to climb stairs. Since it needs just one additional cafe, of which there is quite an abundance, it is a non-issue really. If enough Club-Cafes can be found, it also opens up the possibility of BC service.



#60 A Voice

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 12:36 PM

 

Why would they run the cafe to Chicago?  Doesn't the Capitol already have a cafe?  You wouldn't need two between Pittsburgh and Chicago...

To provide food service to the single level portion without the need to climb stairs. Since it needs just one additional cafe, of which there is quite an abundance, it is a non-issue really. If enough Club-Cafes can be found, it also opens up the possibility of BC service.

 

 

How often have you seen Amtrak place two cafe or lounge cars within the same consist?  More likely, the intention would be to run the Capitol Limited with only a dining car - no Sightseer Lounge - and the single-level cafe/lounge sufficing for lounge space.  Other trains which split en route generally operate with the diner in one section and the lounge to the alternate destination (Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited).  Climbing stairs isn't really an issue (aside from mobility impairments, for which provision is made) and Amtrak has operated split-level trains before (Heritage sleepers and Superliner coaches).  






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