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Feasibility of Florida-Chicago Train via Atlanta, Nashville, Louisvill


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#21 jis

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 03:49 PM

Martin County actually did want the Amtrak service, surprisingly.

#22 railiner

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 02:10 AM

 

 

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.

Unless they could get it re-routed over the FEC.... :)

 

Nah, the folks in Martin County wouldn't allow that.

 

 

 

 

Why do you say that?  What reason(s) could they possibly have to object to it?

 

I can't think of any reason for a location to not want train service, unless they had to pay for the privilege of its availability......


Edited by railiner, 02 April 2016 - 02:13 AM.

metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#23 jis

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 05:43 AM

He is partly joking about the famous NIMBYs of Martin County who are mightily opposing AAF.

#24 Palmetto

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 09:07 AM

Well, Martin County does, in fact, have train service.  It's in Indiantown, not that there's a load rich, powerful NIMBYs there. 



#25 ainamkartma

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:19 AM

 

 

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

 

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

 

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a

 

Do you know what is the method they intend to use to so dramatically speed up the schedule relative to 2002?

 

Thanks,

Ainam "Not that I'm objecting" Kartma

 

I don't know. It is a report that Amtrak put together and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

 

For methodology details read the report (PDF) at http://static1.squar...Report 2015.pdf

 

 

Thanks for the link.  It makes interesting reading.  Unfortunately, unless I missed it, it does not include any description of how the "conceptual" schedules were developed.  I guess they are assuming the timekeeping problems with the Sunset Limited would be resolved somehow in some new deal with the host railroad. For what it is worth, their conceptual schedule has an average speed of about 44 mph between Jacksonville and New Orleans, while the 2002 SL schedule had an average speed of 37 mph over the same track.

 

Ainam "Fastest Tour de France stage speed ever: 34.5 mph" Kartma



#26 jis

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:25 AM

Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.


Edited by jis, 04 April 2016 - 10:26 AM.


#27 Anthony V

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 04:00 PM

Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying. However, there are many obstacles to this, many of them major ones. First, the L&I tracks (IND-LVL) would need to be upgraded from 30 mph to 79 mph and signalized. Second, south of LVL, CSX owns the tracks and they are some of the most heavily used in their system, especially NVL-CHT-ATL-JAX, so CSX would, without a doubt, ask for $$$$$$$$$ in capacity increases. Third, the Atlanta Brookwood station (on the NS line) is too small and gets crowded even at existing usage levels, and, even worse, is in the wrong place to be used for such a service without a long backup move (NS will not want that). The Atlanta MMPT would have to be built someday to solve the station problems, but the odds of finding funding for this massive project are about nil, especially in Georgia's current political climate, though the project still has never been canceled. All of this put together means that it is a longshot for a Chicago-Florida service along this route to happen anytime soon if ever.

 

However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above are scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/...bileFormat=true
 

Second, you might not realize it, but the study for the Gulf Coast rail service restoration project recommended extending the CONO to ORL, essentially creating a Chicago-Florida train. Further, efforts for this service are moving along pretty quickly and the goal is to have the train up and running in 3-4 years. So we may actually have a Chicago-Florida train fairly soon, albeit not on the route discussed in this thread, but it may soon be possible to travel from Chicago to Florida by a one-seat train ride for the first time since 1979.



#28 west point

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 05:01 PM

ATL ?  Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.



#29 Anderson

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:05 PM

Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.

I think there may also have been some atrocious padding in the schedule which was a side-effect of running through to LAX.


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Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#30 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:21 PM

Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying. 

Another CHI-Florida route could be CHI-IND-LVL-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL-Savannah-Florida. That Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL corridor has potential for two or more daily trains each way.



#31 Anderson

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 10:56 PM

 

Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying. 

Another CHI-Florida route could be CHI-IND-LVL-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL-Savannah-Florida. That Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL corridor has potential for two or more daily trains each way.

 

I'd need to check, but IIRC back in the 50s there were three routes which went Chicago-Miami.  The times were basically identical between the trains in Florida and at CHI (and at one or two intermediate points)...basically three railroads each ran a train every third day so as not to cannibalize the market, but coordinated so customers had a basically stable schedule at key cities where possible.

 

Edit: Ok, you had the Dixie Flagler, the City of Miami, and the South Wind.  Identical timecards in CHI and between JAX-MIA but different intermediate routings.  That's part of the punch-up here: There's not enough definable business for three routes (and heck, I don't even know what tracks might be missing) but there are different route options which serve intermediate markets and all of those routings have a clear case for being chosen.

 

Edit 2: Some more thoughts:
-Martin County wanted the Amtrak service but not the FEC service, probably because the Amtrak service had stops around Martin County (IIRC Jupiter was one stop on both proposed trains) while the FEC service doesn't have any to start with.

-If I'm AAF/FEC, I'd want some compensation but I'd want the Amtrak trains in the following order:
--(1) Palmetto/Silver Palm.  Can operate at night and be dispatched as if it were a fast freight instead of a high-speed passenger train.  Arguably almost totally non-competitive with FEC services.

--(2) Silver Meteor.  Only has two host RRs total (north of JAX, that is) and one of those is Amtrak.  CSX treats the train pretty well and uses it to hook their cars onto.  I'd force an agreement on equipment (must be high-floor compatible, etc.) as well so the train would be able to be dispatched the same as the planned FEC trains...and honestly, I might well demand to have the operating crew drawn from "my" people as well as a say in any tickets being sold "internally" (e.g. within the JAX-MIA stretch).

--(3) Silver Star.  At present I would NOT want this train.  Ignoring the Tampa backup, that little ten-mile stretch of NS would give me a fit in FEC's shoes since that sets up buck-passing and dispatch problems.  I frankly would demand either a hell of a pad at JAX to make up for possible issues or a re-route onto the planned S-line south of Richmond if that came to pass so as to avoid those issues.

 

Given the issues with Amtrak equipment at times, I might well just say "Guess what?  If you're sending a passenger train down our tracks, it gets a Brightline locomotive, a Brightline operating crew, and we get some cut of the revenue to/from Brightline stations.  We're not going to have you send a train down our line with a 'different' locomotive which proceeds to break down and foul our main line."


Edited by Anderson, 04 May 2016 - 11:21 PM.

Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#32 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 08:01 AM

ATL ?  Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.

 

I don't know if skipping ATL is a deal breaker for a Chicago-Florida train but the old Floridian bypassed ATL so could that be a possibility just to bring Amtrak back to Louisville and Nashville?


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#33 neroden

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 02:15 PM

However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above are scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/...bileFormat=true

This opens up possibilities I hadn't thought of.

Shortlines tend to be *way* more friendly to passenger rail than, well, CSX.

CSX is not very interested in the Indianapolis-Chicago line of the Cardinal.

With the track upgraded from Indianapolis to Louisville, if the states of Indiana and Kentucky, or the cities, could somehow get interested enough to put real money into the route, a Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville train becomes quite plausible. The stations at Jeffersonville and Louisville remain intact. The biggest upgrades needed would still be from Chicago to Indianapolis.

Edited by neroden, 02 January 2017 - 02:15 PM.

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#34 jphjaxfl

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 04:59 PM

As I have stated before, a Chicago to Florida train through the mid south whether it be via Atlanta or Birmingham will only be successful if it is competitive with driving times and is dependable.  Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late.  That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.  I heard many, many Amtrak passegers state "Never Again!" after arriving from Florida on a train that did not function properly.  There's no point in making projections when there is no longer a market for that travel.



#35 A Voice

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 05:51 PM

Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late.  That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared. 

 

The Floridian was discontinued in 1979 as part of system-wide cuts initiated by the Carter Administration.  

 

There remains a market for every other train which survived the bloody 1979 and mid-90's cutbacks, and there further remain markets for restoration of such services as New Orleans to Florida.  What makes you think there would not be a market for Chicago (Mid-West) to Florida (southeast) travel?  



#36 jphjaxfl

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:42 PM

Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late.  That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.

I traveled on the Florida and pre- Amtrak Southwind numerous times from the early 1960s until 1979. I know lots of people in the Chicago area as well as along potential routes. I have had lots of discussion about such a train. I know what people think.



 
The Floridian was discontinued in 1979 as part of system-wide cuts initiated by the Carter Administration.  
 
There remains a market for every other train which survived the bloody 1979 and mid-90's cutbacks, and there further remain markets for restoration of such services as New Orleans to Florida.  What makes you think there would not be a market for Chicago (Mid-West) to Florida (southeast) travel?


#37 west point

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:22 PM

Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.
As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.
BHM - Columbus, Ga - Tifton has also been seriously downgraded in Ga and Cof Ga in Alabama not in great shape..
BHM - LaGrange, Ga - Manchester - Old ACL line to JAX. Now that is a possibility however the CSX Lineville sub is very busy with BOW line reroutes both from BHM and Mobile for Haz Mat.

#38 Seaboard92

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 05:05 PM

The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.
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#39 Seaboard92

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 05:05 PM

The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.
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#40 west point

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 06:15 PM

Would like to compare possible route times CHI - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga -ATL with CHI - Cincinnati - Chattanooga times.




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