Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

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Of all the states that have Amtrak service, I would think Ohio collectively is among the states that have the worst departure/arrival times along the Amtrak system. Most of the scheduled times are either near or during the graveyard shift (times that most adults would not want to be awake, especially in Am-shacks). From experience, I can say Utah is pretty bad too. There are probably others and a few states with no service at all but Ohio is notable because it is a state with a large population. Two of the largest cities in Ohio, Cleveland and Cincinnati, have late night/overnight times.

Certainly the lack of Amtrak service in Ohio can be blamed on John Kasich and other governors that have neglected rail service. But other states do not have state supported trains and are served by LD trains at better times. Based on the schedules, it looks like Amtrak sees Ohio as a pass through state between CHI and the NEC. Could schedules be changed or trains added to better serve Ohio?

There are currently two routes that pass through Ohio, the TOL-CLE branch which is served by the CL and LSL and the CIN branch which is served by the Cardinal. For Ohio, they have essentially two choices: arrive/leave during the graveyard shift and allow transfers to the West Coast in CHI or arrive/leave at better times and lose the ability to transfer to the west.

Ideally, you could reschedule either the CL or LSL to serve TOL and CLE at better times. The problem is both trains have a lot of eastern passengers who would lose the ability to transfer in CHI if the schedule shifted.

I had previously proposed new trains from CHI to the NEC via Michigan. Another option would be to extend the Pennsylvanian to CHI and shift the CL schedule to arrive in PGH before midnight and leave PGH early in the morning so they would serve Ohio at better times:

29 (7 hr shift) 30 (6 hr shift)

WAS 11:05pm 7:05am
PGH 6:48am/6:55am 11:05pm/11:20pm
CLE 9:53am/9:59am 7:45pm/7:54pm
TOL 12:08pm/12:22pm 5:39pm/5:49pm
CHI 3:45pm 12:40pm

With an early morning arrival into WAS and late night departure from WAS, you create many more transfer opportunities (even the Carolinian and Palmetto can transfer to the CL). Anyone in Ohio who wishes to transfer to the west in CHI could still take the LSL and anyone in PGH could take the extended Pennsylvanian.

The problem would be any passenger transferring from west of CHI traveling to WAS would have to then take the Pennsylvanian to PHL and transfer to WAS. Also anyone who wants to double transfer between west of CHI to south of WAS would be in trouble. Using AAO's Pennsylvanian extension (http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf), the Pennsylvanian would get into PHL at 3:48pm so a transfer to the Cresent isn't possible (7 minute leeway) and you would have an hour and 10 minutes to get to the SM. To arrive into PHL earlier, you could not run the Pennsylvanian through Michigan. The Pennsylvanian can leave CHI at 8:40pm, arrive in PGH at 7:05am, leave in PGH at 7:30am (the current time) and arrive in PHL at 2:55pm. You could shift these times a half hour or an hour earlier to arrive in PHL earlier. If you want to add Michigan service, you can add to the CL schedule. That would require a later westbound arrival time into CHI and an earlier eastbound departure from CHI.

If you shift the Cardinal, you lose fewer potential transfers than shifting the LSL and CL
The "ideal" schedule from Cincinnati's perspective (ignoring transfer possibilities) is for the train to arrive eastbound into CIN before midnight and westbound into CIN early in the morning.

51 (6 hr shift) 50 (6 hr shift)
NYP 12:45pm 3:58pm
PHL 2:15pm 2:26pm
WAS 5:05pm 12:19pm
CVS 7:48pm/7:57pm 9:10am/9:19am
CIN 7:36am/7:46am 9:17pm/9:27pm
IND 11:20am/12:00pm 5:50pm/5:59pm
CHI 4:05pm 11:45am

The arrival/departure times in CIN would be way better than what they are now. The train also gets into NYP a lot earlier and leaves a lot later. You would lose the ability to transfer in CHI for western trains but you would have more time to transfer to/from the SM and Crescent. In NYP, you could then catch a night train to BOS/New England.

The Cardinal schedule back in the late 70's/early 80's also had "good" CIN times and didn't allow for western transfers so these schedules wouldn't be unprecedented.

1980 Cardinal schedule: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19800427&item=0037

Now these schedules wouldn't work under the current Cardinal/Hoosier State arrangement. The CHI-IND legs would then overlap and Iowa Pacific would be forced to use two trains rather than the same train for both the northbound and southbound routes.

On the other hand, I think these schedules would work for a daily Cardinal train. Amtrak's PRIIA plans would be to combine the Cardinal and the Hoosier State into a daily Cardinal. But if you do that, you lose the partnership with Iowa Pacific and some of you sound pleased with the dome cars.

What if we had a daily Cardinal using these times and then had a separate daily Hoosier State train using the current times? So Indianapolis would have two daily trains to CHI. Passengers who want to transfer in CHI to/from the west can take the existing times (Hoosier State) while passengers who just want to go to CHI can take the new, better Cardinal times. These times also are way better for travel from IND to the East Coast. To extend the Hoosier State to CIN, you would need a second set and you'd have a train originating from CIN and arriving in CIN in the middle of the night. Would a sleeper car be required? The eastbound train CHI to CIN couldn't practically leave CHI any earlier than 5:45pm. You might be able to leave CIN two hours later and arrive in CHI at 12:05pm (delays would be less of a problem as the train is only CIN-CHI).

I think the Cardinal shift is more practical than the Capitol Limited shift. You would only require the Cardinal to go daily which Amtrak (and many AU members) would like anyway. CIN passengers would lose the ability to transfer west of CHI but would have better departure/arrival times all along the Cardinal route (and some additional transfer opportunities in WAS). It would be easier than adding a new CHI-NEC train (although I certainly would like to see one for other reasons: CHI-Keystone, better times for CLE and TOL, and the possibility of NEC to Michigan service).
 
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It seems logistically the easiest solution is to reroute Empire Service train 281 from Niagara Falls to Cleveland for day service form New York (9:30 PM arrival westbound). You would have to carve out a new midday slot eastbound between the LSL and the Maple Leaf; either that or use the current 284 schedule and accept a 4:00 Cleveland departure and call the LSL's time good enough. I'm not really sure what the ridership across New York would do if you swapped the mid morning train into a midday train, and if there was a loss whether the traffic from Cleveland would make up for it. I rather think that it would, but I'm not sure.

Then the obvious route west would simply be a new train, using freed-up Horizon equipment after the bi-levels arrive. Unfortunately, the time change is not in ones favor, particularly if you're trying to run a round trip with one set of equipment. A westbound departure would have to leave Cleveland at 6:30 probably, putting you in Chicago at 12:30, perhaps enough time to make Western connections. Turn the set quickly for a 4:00 eastbound departure for a Cleveland arrival at midnight. On paper it would work, but it would fall apart with any delay heading west. Although, it occurs to me that the Hiawathas aren't getting new bilevels, are they? So perhaps there would still be the flexibility to have a common pool, and the inbound arrival from Cleveland could turn as a late day Hiawatha round trip, then a morning round trip the next day before running back east. So a two day cycle.

Obviously they would need funding. Would New York State be willing to pay for a train west to Cleveland? Presumably there would be more traffic with Cleveland as the endpoint, so if the operating cost didn't change substantially one would think the state might come out ahead. A Chicago train would be harder. The only way I can really think of it working would if a train was funded by local communities, which is not entirely implausible; it happens on the Hoosier State, but seems improbable.

In my dreams, I would supplement this with a train running NYP-ALB-BUF-CLE-TOL-DET-CHI. Westbound an NYP departure at 9:00, Albany at 11:45, Buffalo at 4:45, Cleveland at 8:15, Toledo at 10:45, Detroit/Dearborn at 12:00 and Chicago at 4:00. Eastbound, leave Chicago at 11:00, Detroit/Dearborn at 5:00, Toledo at 6:30, Cleveland at 9:00, Buffalo at 12:30, Albany at 6:30 (extended stop at Albany for a more reasonable detraining time and avoiding rush hour into Penn Station) and New York at 9:15. That covers both Northeast-Michigan and overnight service to Ohio.
 
Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?
Probably the baby step which I'm sure Toledo is already thinking about is extending a Wolverine train to TOL for connections to the CL/LSL and eliminating the Thruway Bus connection. They could turn the 354 at DET to go south to TOL and originate the 353 at TOL.
 
I actually really like your proposed Cardinal schedule. It would be an excellent schedule for a daily Cardinal. Having it separate from the Hoosier State is fine by me because there should be two trains a day from Chicago to Indianapolis.

The reason this schedule was a non-starter for decades was Senator Byrd (D ) of West Virginia, the main champion of the Cardinal, who managed the train solely for the benefit of West Virginia. He is now gone. Joe Manchin is a good guy who supports Amtrak but he doesn't have the massive seniority and power which Byrd did. WV's other senator is now Shelley Capito ( R) who is hostile to Amtrak, replacing Jay Rockefeller (D ) who was an Amtrak supporter.

By all accounts (such as my acquaintance DP Lubic) the state government of West Virginia is being utterly unhelpful when it comes to rail service. And West Virginia's population is crashing. It makes sense for WV to be the state which gets the nighttime travel, while the states with more population and more political support get the daytime travel this isn't supposed to be a tourist train.
 
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Could I use some of your proposals to talk to some people in the Toledo Area who are in charge of the transportation there?
If you're going to talk to people in charge of transportation in Toledo, the thing to push for is the extension of one Chicago-Dearborn Wolverine to Toledo, instead of to Pontiac. This provides a day-train service from Toledo to much of Michigan (and vice versa!) -- and it provides a more reliable service to Chicago, at better hours, than the LSL and CL do.

This would also allow for connections from Michigan to the LSL & CL (this is easy, since the westbound LSL and CL arrive Toledo in early morning and the eastbound LSL and CL depart Toledo in late evening). Done right -- with a shuttle bus or something -- people laying over between trains could have time to run aruond downtown Toledo.

It would be of great benefit to Toledo and of great benefit to Michigan. Toledo transportation folks should really be talking to Michigan DOT about this.

Michigan DOT is also considering a Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Dearborn-(Detroit?) train. Toledo officials *need* to start talking to them to convince them to make that train connect to Toledo -- even if it requires some money from Toledo (again, connecting to the LSL and CL to the east coast). This would be a very valuable train connection for Toledo, though even more valuable for people going to and Michigan.

I guess what I'm saying is that Toledo transportation officials should be actively talking to Michigan DOT to incorporate Toledo into the Michigan rail plans. For Toledo, this would be the best thing they could do for their intercity rail service.
 
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If Amtrak eventually got to adding the STL through cars as they floated the idea in the PRIIA then if a train could leave IND around noon ET and arrive in STL by around 6pm CT (7 hrs counting the time change), Cardinal passengers east of IND could then transfer in STL to the TE (8pm departure). The return window would be around 8am CT to around 4pm ET (also 7 hr). So CIN would be able leave 6 hr later and arrive in Texas at the same time they would with the current Cardinal/TE changing in CHI. A WAS-Texas passenger could leave one hour later to arrive in Texas at the same time.
 
I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.
 
I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.
The only way I would switch the CL is if there was a CHI-Keystone train in its place so passengers in WAS (and BAL) could take a train to PHL to get to CHI in the morning or to transfer to the west. I doubt that would change your opinion about the CL but I would hope that make it less objectionable. In the old BL days they did use to have through cars to WAS. Maybe Amtrak could do that so that would be your direct train leaving WAS in the afternoon (although quite a bit earlier) and arriving in CHI in the morning.
 
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I would be against those times for the Capitol Limited or Cardinal. It would ruin transfer opportunities in Chicago between western trains and the Capitol Limited or Cardinal and require an overnight each way. To me, the Capitol Limited is a quick overnight train from DC to access the plentiful routes from Chicago. The Cardinal is definitely more of a scenic route since it takes 24 hours from DC, so I wouldn't be as opposed to changing that one since I'd rather take the Capitol Limited anyway.
The only way I would switch the CL is if there was a CHI-Keystone train in its place so passengers in WAS (and BAL) could take a train to PHL to get to CHI in the morning or to transfer to the west. I doubt that would change your opinion about the CL but I would hope that make it less objectionable. In the old BL days they did use to have through cars to WAS. Maybe Amtrak could do that so that would be your direct train leaving WAS in the afternoon (although quite a bit earlier) and arriving in CHI in the morning.
But currently the train between PHL and PGH doesn't have sleepers and as far I I know there aren't any extra sleepers to go around, right? Is this only feasible if there are more sleepers? Also it adds about 4 hours to the trip from WAS to CHI to connect through PHL which is bad and also does not allow checked luggage very easily to Chicago since that can't be taken on the Northeast Regionals or Acelas except for that one overnight Regional along the corridor. Unless we are adding additional trains, changing the schedules for current trains is just going to involve people fighting each other to see who deserves the more convenient train schedule.
 
Any of these proposals would require new sleepers.

To help CLE/TOL and give a direct CHI-PHL train, it kind of comes down roughly to two of AAO's proposals, their Three Rivers or their extended Pennsylvanian.

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/

The TR schedule allows better times in Ohio while the Pennsylvanian would allow for transfers.

One reason I would rather use the Pennsylvanian and shift the CL as opposed to just doing the TR is that the only new train miles would be the second PGH-CHI. If you did the TR, you would need an all new train NYP-CHI. I certainly would be happy with the TR and keep the CL as is but shifting the CL and extending the Pennsylvanian would require fewer new train miles. If PA then funds a second Pennsylvanian (which they are talking about) or if Amtrak takes over funding for the extended Pennsylvanian, then the second PGH-NYP would have better times than the overnight hours of the TR.

I certainly understand your concern and would want to keep CHI-WAS as desirable as it is now. If Amtrak could do the through cars to the Pennsylvanian (Broadway Limited), baggage would not be an issue (it would just be a few hours longer). Another idea would be to allow passengers to travel from WAS to PHL on one of the trains with baggage capabilities. Remember the CL would still run and it would allow WAS-CLE and WAS-TOL and not arrive in those cities in the middle of the night.
 
I strongly vote for truncating the Cardinal to Washington DC.

Train 50

Depart Chicago 10:30 pm.

Indianapolis 4:35/4:44 am (overnight stop)

Cincinnati 8:02/8:12 am

Charlottesville 7:55/8:04 pm (new river gorge is in daylight)

Arrive Washington 11:04 pm. (Maybe depart Chicago earlier, but that would put Cincinnati with service at 7 am or earlier, which isn't the best).

Don't have to worry about getting to new york at 2am.

Hoosier State would run on a more realistic schedule, and daily instead in tandem with the Cardinal, to provide Indianapolis with daily service.

I hope people like it, I'm a HUGE fan of the Cardinal. Thanks for reading!
 
That's a very good Schedule for the Card maxbuskirk but Amtrak doesn't want to lose the NYP-WAS passengers from this train.

Others have suggested that the Card should run STL-NYP with a better calling time for Cinci as you propose but slots into/out of NYP are a problem.
 
These are my updated plans.

Both add

Direct CHI-Keystone train (Liberty Limited) with through cars PHL-WAS

Michigan-NEC service

3C extension

Daily Cardinal with shifted schedules to better serve IND/CIN

Daily Hoosier State in current Cardinal/Hoosier State slot

2nd NYP-PGH frequency

Plan A:

Liberty Limited is a brand new train traveling through Michigan

3C extension connects to Liberty Limited at CLE

Capitol Limited stays same

Plan B:

Liberty Limited is extension of current Pennsylvanian. Train travels to CHI via South Bend.

Capitol Limited is shifted and travels through Michigan

3C extension connects to Capitol Limited in CLE

New Pennsylvanian

I am not hinting either plan is better overall but merely showing the possibilities of each. In Plan A, WAS gets the "transfer train" while PHL/Eastern PA gets the "Ohio train" while in Plan B PHL/WAS gets the "transfer train" while WAS gets the "Ohio train" (although they would have direct access on the "transfer train" via PHL). In Plan A, I might still wish to pursue the through cars NYP-PGH to the CL.

New Liberty Limited Daily Rescheduled Cardinal January 2016.pdf

New Liberty Limited Daily Rescheduled Cardinal Rescheduled Capitol Limited Pennsylvanian January 2016.pdf
 

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I strongly vote for truncating the Cardinal to Washington DC.

Train 50

Depart Chicago 10:30 pm.

Indianapolis 4:35/4:44 am (overnight stop)

Cincinnati 8:02/8:12 am

Charlottesville 7:55/8:04 pm (new river gorge is in daylight)

Arrive Washington 11:04 pm. (Maybe depart Chicago earlier, but that would put Cincinnati with service at 7 am or earlier, which isn't the best).

Don't have to worry about getting to new york at 2am.

Hoosier State would run on a more realistic schedule, and daily instead in tandem with the Cardinal, to provide Indianapolis with daily service.

I hope people like it, I'm a HUGE fan of the Cardinal. Thanks for reading!
If it frees up Viewliners for some new CHI-Keystone route or the Pennsylvanian-CL through cars (since this train could then use Superliners), I'd be in favor of it.

Other possibilities to truncate in WAS/use Superliners to free up a Viewliner set would be the Silver Star (anyone north of WAS can use the SM) or Palmetto IF it is extended to Florida (so it can run WAS-Florida instead of NYP-Savannah).
 
A big "IF". If all present Superliner western trains continue then until congress appropriates more money earmarked for Superliners you cannot expect any changes for Superliner trains. Now when some replacement V-2 coaches are built then some of these trips might happen.

A big but. For the foreseeable future most any additional money will go for NEC critical projects unless specifically earmarked.
 
A big "IF". If all present Superliner western trains continue then until congress appropriates more money earmarked for Superliners you cannot expect any changes for Superliner trains. Now when some replacement V-2 coaches are built then some of these trips might happen.

A big but. For the foreseeable future most any additional money will go for NEC critical projects unless specifically earmarked.
So we don't have spare Superliners? My bad. I guess we have to wait for the V-2's then.
 
So basically, you're all saying that the new river gorge doesn't matter for the Cardinal. OK. With the following schedules (both of them), a daily Hoosier State is basically required to have any sort of useful corridor train between Chicago and Indianapolis. HIN = Hinton, WV, and I put it here to show the boundaries of the New River Gorge (I know the gorge everyone likes is from Montgomery, WV to Hinton, but Huntington is close enough for the other end)

My schedule for 50/51 without NYC, New River Gorge in daylight, connection with west-coast trains totally work, but schedules to NYC don't at all (so I didn't put it in):

50 51

CHI 9:45P WAS 8:15A

IND 3:50A/3:59A CVS 10:58A/11:07A

CIN 7:17A/7:27A HIN 3:21P

HUN 11:09A/11:16A HUN 6:59P/7:06P

HIN 2:34P CIN 10:46P/10:56P (a little late, but better than 1:30 am)

CVS 7:10P/7:19P IND 2:30A/3:15A

WAS 10:19P CHI 7:20A

New Schedule with New York, and New River Gorge during the night (just flip AM & PM and add New York) West-coast connections are ruined, but I'm not going to worry about that here:

50 51

CHI 9:45A NYP 4:00P

IND 3:50P/3:59P WAS 8:15P

CIN 7:17P/7:27P CVS 10:58P/11:07P

HUN 11:09P/11:16P HIN 3:21A

HIN 2:34A HUN 6:59A/7:06A

CVS 7:10A/7:19A CIN 10:46A/10:56A

WAS 10:19A IND 2:30P/3:15P

NYP 1:56P CHI 7:20P

New York gets the Cardinal, Cincinnati gets optimal departure times, and Indianapolis gets daylight LD service, but Huntington and Charlottesville suffer a little from this, and the New River Gorge is during the night. If we somehow don't care about Huntington, then the schedule posted above by Philly Amtrak Fan would definitely work better.

But IMO, for long-distance passengers going through from west to east (or vice versa), they would take the Cardinal probably for the New River Gorge only, or they actually live along the Cardinal route. Though the River Gorge is in the night, I suppose the Ohio River is in daylight, but it's less isolated, you don't get consistent views of the river, and when you're right close to the river bank, the trees are in the way a lot of the time. But if there's something magically charming about the Cardinal that isn't the New River Gorge that I missed, then I suppose this schedule is pretty good. Thanks for reading!
 
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One thing about the Cardinal at present is that it gets a non-trivial share of ridership CVS-NYP (and the like) since it's a "reverse flow" train. It's not unlike the Shoreliner for Richmond/Hampton Roads in this respect. I hate to be the one to say it, but Virginia is by far more hospitable to passenger rail than Ohio or Indiana.

With that being said, I don't think that IN, Iowa Pacific, or really anybody would object too horridly if the Hoosier State went daily and the Cardinal operated on a separate schedule. The wacky service situation there just isn't terribly sustainable.
 
Response to Anderson:

With my Cardinal shift, CVS-NYP is still preserved. You would leave NYP much later and arrive in NYP much earlier. If I were visiting New York from VA, I'd probably rather leave around the lunch hour than before 7am and I'd probably like to arrive before rush hour than just before 10pm but others can disagree.

Response to MaxBusKirk:

Honestly, I had not heard of the New River Gorge before you said it and I barely know the Cardinal stops in West Virginia.

Your proposal to preserve the scenic route and have the train leave CIN before midnight and arrive after 7am certainly helps CIN but unless you have a separate CHI-IND train you've then put IND in the dark. Also, you've taken away NYP/PHL from CIN and IND (if it arrives in WAS at 10:19pm then I doubt they will want to travel further than that and arrive in NYP after midnight). You also take away the CVS-NYP leg Anderson referred to. I'd be open to pushing the westbound Cardinal back and the eastbound Cardinal forward as you proposed but that could hurt if the STL leg starts. If the westbound 51 doesn't get into IND until 2:30pm can you go from IND to STL in time to catch the TE (8:00pm)? You also have less time between STL and IND eastbound.

I'm sure there are people who take the train for the scenic aspect but in reality train travel is #1 a source of transportation. The Cardinal times for CIN are especially horrible with IND not much better and to me fixing them should be a higher priority over scheduling a train for the benefit of river gorge watchers.
 
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Back in my December proposals, I had proposed both a one train and a two train scenario.

So I was thinking about expanding my last proposals to include a second new train similar to the service I had proposed but I am now thinking something slightly different.

One of the premises of mine (and AAO's) proposals is 3-C service that connects as through cars to a longer train running from CHI-NEC. I had proposed attaching those to a new Liberty Limited (NYP-CHI via Keystone Route) and to a shifted Capitol Limited. Back in December, I had proposed attaching them to a second NYP-CHI via Empire Route, Lake Cities). This new train would be in addition to a proposed Liberty Limited.

So my new idea is instead of a 3-C leg/through cars and having a second NYP-CHI train along the Empire Route, I am proposing a single train CIN-NYP along the Empire Route. I will call this the Ohio State Limited based upon the old NY Central railroad Seaboard92 had previously discussed.

My vision is to have sort of an X formation. Imagine one train from CIN-NYP and another from CHI-PGH-either PHL/NYP or WAS with the two trains crossing at CLE. Passengers from Ohio than can transfer in CLE to PGH and either PHL or WAS (the OSL would go direct to NYP). Likewise, passengers from either PHL or WAS can then transfer in CLE to the rest of Ohio. Essentially I have given Ohio access to two routes to the NEC, the Empire route directly and either the Liberty Limited (PHL) or Capitol Limited (WAS) via transfer in CLE. That was not in my previous proposals.

I ran the new Ohio State Limited with both scenarios above:

A: CL same, LL new with Ohio friendly schedule

B: LL new with transfer friendly schedule, CL with Ohio friendly schedule

Assume in both cases the through car option CIN-CLE shown in my previous schedules to these trains is removed and a transfer is required.

In scenario A, you would essentially have both new CLE-NYP legs (LL and OSL) running at virtually the same time. I have them literally on top of each other for now but that would obviously have to be changed. Both trains probably have to be kept out of arriving in NYP during the morning rush hour so I can see some issues.

In scenario B, you would have one new CLE-NYP leg (OSL) to arrive in NYP before the morning rush hour and the other new CLE-NYP leg (LL) arriving before the evening rush hour (it would essentially replace the existing Pennsylvanian). The CLE-WAS leg of the CL would arrive in WAS at 7:05am.

The OSL seems to mesh better with the shifted CL than the proposed LL running Ohio friendly times although WAS doesn't want to hear that. It doesn't make sense to me to have two new CLE-NYP (OSL and LL) to be running around the same time frame.

For now, I am going to ignore the possibility of passengers from the OSL transferring in CLE to CHI (passengers east of CLE can still take the LSL). To allow that would have some longer layovers in CLE for one or both of the trains in the X.

Feel free to discuss schedule adjustments to either of the OSL scenarios.

Ohio State Limited January 2016.pdf
 

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So basically, you're all saying that the new river gorge doesn't matter for the Cardinal. ...

But IMO, for long-distance passengers going through from west to east (or vice versa),....
There aren't many. Cardinal ridership patterns are middle-of-route to CHI and middle-of-route to WAS/NYP. This is why the schedule should not be designed for the extreme minority of end-to-end passengers.
 
One other thing, Bob Dylan, running the Cardinal 10:19-1:56am eastbound and 4:00am-8:15am westbound would basically be a 66/67 duplicate. So though the schedules don't work out, if people ride 66/67 from WAS-NYP, then the late-night WAS-NYP Cardinal shouldn't cause too much problems.

Or, for better times for everybody, extend the "Hoosier State" to Cincinnati, make it a day train (anti-Wolverine State? :p ), and then truncate the Cardinal to CIN-WAS/NYP? You would still have a another "Hoosier state" train, perhaps with a better schedule than the current one . . .

850 51

CHI 9:45A NYP (4:00A)

IND 3:50/3:59P WAS 8:15A

CIN 7:17P CVS 10:58A/11:07A

HIN 3:21P

50 HUN 6:59P/7:06P

CIN 7:27A CIN 10:46P

HUN 11:09A/11:16A

HIN 2:34P 851

CVS 7:10/7:19P CIN 10:56A

WAS 10:19P IND 2:30P/3:15P

NYP (1:56A) CHI 7:20P

That works, removing the need for sleepers, but then diners will probably disappear from the trains and the Cardinal would eventually go away due to unpopularity.

EDIT: I just saw your recent post, Philly Amtrak Fan. The River Gorge is the problem. It's in the wrong spot to provide daylight views of it, yet preserve daylight (or at least waking-hours) schedules for IND and CIN. I suppose the old C&O George Washington and the old Cardinal did the Gorge overnight. The path through the gorge also has large portions where a layer of trees block the view to the river, so though I love it (despite not living there), it's not so important realistically.

Maybe actually a new "anti-Wolverine State" from IND to CIN (maybe from CHI) would work, avoiding waking up at 2am to catch the train, but they'd have to stay the night in CIN if the Cardinal comes in the morning.

Oh yeah, and this is probably not going to happen, but hey, it's great fun planning all of this!

SECOND EDIT: neroden! Thank you! Suspected that, but you never know. There aren't good-sized towns in WV apart from Huntington and Charleston, so the overnight gorge schedule would work a lot. Huntington to Chicago is a day trip, while HUN-WAS/NYP would be overnight.

I still like the gorge, so there could be day train from, say WAS-HUN, and then back, that would work. Need a place to store the train in Huntington though.
 
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OK about extending Cardinal to Louisville KY and St. Louis MO. With the old schedules in hand, I will explore the possibilities.

As of July 21 1963, it took C&O about 6 hrs to complete Louisville KY - Ashland KY. A night gorge Cardinal would work best here. Seeing that the tracks are in worse conditions (if not abandoned), I will allow 8 hours LVL-HUN.

LEX=Lexington, KY

LVL 2:00P

[LEX] 5:00P/5:15P

AKY 9:30P

HUN 10:00P

Connect to Cardinal

Connect from Cardinal

HUN 8:00A

AKY 8:30A

[LEX] 12:45P/1:00P

LVL 4:00P

You would need 2 train sets for this, even if the Cardinal arrived in Huntington earlier in the morning.

As of July 1963, It took L&N 3-3.5 hours to complete CIN-LVL. I will allow 4 hours 15 minutes.

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

LVL 3:45P

LVL 2:15P

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal

Again, 2 train sets required, but if 3-3.5 hrs is still possible, then it's possible with only 1 trainset. Of course, if Philly's schedule is used, then only 1 trainset is needed.

As of April 28, 1963, it took B&O 7-8 hours to complete STL-CIN. I will allow 10 hours here. It would be best with Philly Amtrak Fan's schedule, and the old George Washington schedule.

With Philly's:

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 8:15A

STL 6:15P

Connect to Texas Eagle

Connect from Texas Eagle

STL 9:15A

CIN 7:15P

Connect to Cardinal

With mine:

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

STL 9:30P

Don't trust the Eagle being on time

STL 8:30A

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal.

AM&PM could always be flipped if the Cardinal would run with the gorge in daylight.

Kentucky Cardinal isn't related with Cardinal that much with an ideal schedule, so I didn't include it.

Thanks for reading, and yay 50 posts!
 
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