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Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio


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#21 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 09:49 AM

Response to Anderson:

 

With my Cardinal shift, CVS-NYP is still preserved. You would leave NYP much later and arrive in NYP much earlier. If I were visiting New York from VA, I'd probably rather leave around the lunch hour than before 7am and I'd probably like to arrive before rush hour than just before 10pm but others can disagree.

 

Response to MaxBusKirk:

 

Honestly, I had not heard of the New River Gorge before you said it and I barely know the Cardinal stops in West Virginia.

 

Your proposal to preserve the scenic route and have the train leave CIN before midnight and arrive after 7am certainly helps CIN but unless you have a separate CHI-IND train you've then put IND in the dark. Also, you've taken away NYP/PHL from CIN and IND (if it arrives in WAS at 10:19pm then I doubt they will want to travel further than that and arrive in NYP after midnight). You also take away the CVS-NYP leg Anderson referred to. I'd be open to pushing the westbound Cardinal back and the eastbound Cardinal forward as you proposed but that could hurt if the STL leg starts. If the westbound 51 doesn't get into IND until 2:30pm can you go from IND to STL in time to catch the TE (8:00pm)? You also have less time between STL and IND eastbound.

 

I'm sure there are people who take the train for the scenic aspect but in reality train travel is #1 a source of transportation. The Cardinal times for CIN are especially horrible with IND not much better and to me fixing them should be a higher priority over scheduling a train for the benefit of river gorge watchers.


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 30 January 2016 - 09:49 AM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#22 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

Back in my December proposals, I had proposed both a one train and a two train scenario. 

 

So I was thinking about expanding my last proposals to include a second new train similar to the service I had proposed but I am now thinking something slightly different.

 

One of the premises of mine (and AAO's) proposals is 3-C service that connects as through cars to a longer train running from CHI-NEC. I had proposed attaching those to a new Liberty Limited (NYP-CHI via Keystone Route) and to a shifted Capitol Limited. Back in December, I had proposed attaching them to a second NYP-CHI via Empire Route, Lake Cities). This new train would be in addition to a proposed Liberty Limited.

 

So my new idea is instead of a 3-C leg/through cars and having a second NYP-CHI train along the Empire Route, I am proposing a single train CIN-NYP along the Empire Route. I will call this the Ohio State Limited based upon the old NY Central railroad Seaboard92 had previously discussed.

 

My vision is to have sort of an X formation. Imagine one train from CIN-NYP and another from CHI-PGH-either PHL/NYP or WAS with the two trains crossing at CLE. Passengers from Ohio than can transfer in CLE to PGH and either PHL or WAS (the OSL would go direct to NYP). Likewise, passengers from either PHL or WAS can then transfer in CLE to the rest of Ohio. Essentially I have given Ohio access to two routes to the NEC, the Empire route directly and either the Liberty Limited (PHL) or Capitol Limited (WAS) via transfer in CLE. That was not in my previous proposals.

 

I ran the new Ohio State Limited with both scenarios above:

 

A: CL same, LL new with Ohio friendly schedule

B: LL new with transfer friendly schedule, CL with Ohio friendly schedule

 

Assume in both cases the through car option CIN-CLE shown in my previous schedules to these trains is removed and a transfer is required.

 

In scenario A, you would essentially have both new CLE-NYP legs (LL and OSL) running at virtually the same time. I have them literally on top of each other for now but that would obviously have to be changed. Both trains probably have to be kept out of arriving in NYP during the morning rush hour so I can see some issues.

 

In scenario B, you would have one new CLE-NYP leg (OSL) to arrive in NYP before the morning rush hour and the other new CLE-NYP leg (LL) arriving before the evening rush hour (it would essentially replace the existing Pennsylvanian). The CLE-WAS leg of the CL would arrive in WAS at 7:05am. 

 

The OSL seems to mesh better with the shifted CL than the proposed LL running Ohio friendly times although WAS doesn't want to hear that. It doesn't make sense to me to have two new CLE-NYP (OSL and LL) to be running around the same time frame.

 

For now, I am going to ignore the possibility of passengers from the OSL transferring in CLE to CHI (passengers east of CLE can still take the LSL). To allow that would have some longer layovers in CLE for one or both of the trains in the X.

 

Feel free to discuss schedule adjustments to either of the OSL scenarios.

Attached Files


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 30 January 2016 - 10:33 AM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#23 neroden

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 11:52 AM

So basically, you're all saying that the new river gorge doesn't matter for the Cardinal. ...
But IMO, for long-distance passengers going through from west to east (or vice versa),....


There aren't many. Cardinal ridership patterns are middle-of-route to CHI and middle-of-route to WAS/NYP. This is why the schedule should not be designed for the extreme minority of end-to-end passengers.
--Nathanael--

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#24 maxbuskirk

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 11:27 PM

One other thing, Bob Dylan, running the Cardinal 10:19-1:56am eastbound and 4:00am-8:15am westbound would basically be a 66/67 duplicate. So though the schedules don't work out, if people ride 66/67 from WAS-NYP, then the late-night WAS-NYP Cardinal shouldn't cause too much problems.

 

Or, for better times for everybody, extend the "Hoosier State" to Cincinnati, make it a day train (anti-Wolverine State? :P), and then truncate the Cardinal to CIN-WAS/NYP? You would still have a another "Hoosier state" train, perhaps with a better schedule than the current one . . .

 

850                                     51

CHI 9:45A                           NYP (4:00A)

IND 3:50/3:59P                   WAS 8:15A

CIN 7:17P                           CVS 10:58A/11:07A

                                           HIN 3:21P

50                                       HUN 6:59P/7:06P

CIN 7:27A                          CIN 10:46P

HUN 11:09A/11:16A

HIN 2:34P                          851

CVS 7:10/7:19P                 CIN 10:56A

WAS 10:19P                      IND 2:30P/3:15P

NYP (1:56A)                      CHI 7:20P

 

That works, removing the need for sleepers, but then diners will probably disappear from the trains and the Cardinal would eventually go away due to unpopularity.

 

EDIT: I just saw your recent post, Philly Amtrak Fan. The River Gorge is the problem. It's in the wrong spot to provide daylight views of it, yet preserve daylight (or at least waking-hours) schedules for IND and CIN. I suppose the old C&O George Washington and the old Cardinal did the Gorge overnight. The path through the gorge also has large portions where a layer of trees block the view to the river, so though I love it (despite not living there), it's not so important realistically.

 

Maybe actually a new "anti-Wolverine State" from IND to CIN (maybe from CHI) would work, avoiding waking up at 2am to catch the train, but they'd have to stay the night in CIN if the Cardinal comes in the morning.

 

Oh yeah, and this is probably not going to happen, but hey, it's great fun planning all of this!

 

SECOND EDIT: neroden! Thank you! Suspected that, but you never know. There aren't good-sized towns in WV apart from Huntington and Charleston, so the overnight gorge schedule would work a lot. Huntington to Chicago is a day trip, while HUN-WAS/NYP would be overnight. 

 

I still like the gorge, so there could be day train from, say WAS-HUN, and then back, that would work. Need a place to store the train in Huntington though.


Edited by maxbuskirk, 30 January 2016 - 11:53 PM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#25 maxbuskirk

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 12:57 AM

OK about extending Cardinal to Louisville KY and St. Louis MO. With the old schedules in hand, I will explore the possibilities.

 

As of July 21 1963, it took C&O about 6 hrs to complete Louisville KY - Ashland KY. A night gorge Cardinal would work best here. Seeing that the tracks are in worse conditions (if not abandoned), I will allow 8 hours LVL-HUN.

LEX=Lexington, KY

 

LVL 2:00P

[LEX] 5:00P/5:15P

AKY 9:30P

HUN 10:00P

Connect to Cardinal

 

Connect from Cardinal

HUN 8:00A

AKY 8:30A

[LEX] 12:45P/1:00P

LVL 4:00P

 

You would need 2 train sets for this, even if the Cardinal arrived in Huntington earlier in the morning.

 

As of July 1963, It took L&N 3-3.5 hours to complete CIN-LVL. I will allow 4 hours 15 minutes.

 

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

LVL 3:45P

 

LVL 2:15P

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal

 

Again, 2 train sets required, but if 3-3.5 hrs is still possible, then it's possible with only 1 trainset. Of course, if Philly's schedule is used, then only 1 trainset is needed. 

 

As of April 28, 1963, it took B&O 7-8 hours to complete STL-CIN. I will allow 10 hours here. It would be best with Philly Amtrak Fan's schedule, and the old George Washington schedule.

 

With Philly's:

 

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 8:15A

STL 6:15P

Connect to Texas Eagle

 

Connect from Texas Eagle

STL 9:15A

CIN 7:15P

Connect to Cardinal

 

With mine:

 

Connect from Cardinal

CIN 11:30A

STL 9:30P

 

Don't trust the Eagle being on time

STL 8:30A

CIN 6:30P

Connect to Cardinal.

 

AM&PM could always be flipped if the Cardinal would run with the gorge in daylight.

Kentucky Cardinal isn't related with Cardinal that much with an ideal schedule, so I didn't include it.

Thanks for reading, and yay 50 posts!


Edited by maxbuskirk, 31 January 2016 - 01:06 AM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#26 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:07 AM

The PRIIA for the Cardinal suggested both CIN-STL and IND-STL. I think IND was the first one suggested. I had to look further to see the CIN option.

 

https://www.amtrak.c...ardinal-PIP.pdf

 

They did not list any routes or intermediate stops although they said it would require use of tracks Amtrak does not currently use.

 

The National Limited used Effingham, IL and Terre Haute, IN between IND and STL. Effingham is a stop on the Illini/Saluki/CONO. I believe Terre Haute has no trains at this time.

 

1977: http://www.timetable...70622&item=0042

 

They had

West: IND 11:40am, STL 5:00pm. Assuming my schedule (arriving in IND 11:20am), you can shift those 1 hr for a 6pm arrival into STL and 2 hr leeway for the TE (8:00pm departure). If it takes an extra hour today as compared to 1977, it would be tight.

 

East: STL 1:05pm, IND 6:10pm. Assuming my schedule (leaving IND 5:59pm), a 3 hr shift would give almost 3 hr. leeway from the TE (7:19am arrival) and almost 3 hr. leeway to the Cardinal. 

 

I would imagine a CIN-STL might involve Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia, IL (bypassing IND)? If so, that would really break into the Louisville market. I might prefer that over IND-STL if Louisville were involved.

 

As for Kentucky Cardinal (2001): http://www.timetable...1028n&item=0029

 

It took about 5 hrs. each way.

 

I would probably tie any IND-Louisville with the Hoosier State rather than the Cardinal to avoid a split situation like the old setup on days the Cardinal went east of IND.But that would require a second set just like CHI-CIN would. I don't know if Iowa Pacific has any dreams of expanding beyond CHI-IND but I would imagine they would want a daily train first before considering expansion. If you use the current Hoosier State times, CIN or Louisville would have graveyard shift times although Louisville's would be slightly better than Cincinnati's since it takes longer (I would guess 5-6am arrival and 12-1am departure).

 

If extended into Nashville (approx 5-6 hrs more), you'd probably have an arrival around lunchtime and a departure around dinner time. 

 

Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#27 maxbuskirk

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 04:24 PM

Hello everyone. I see that Huntington - Louisville C&O tracks are abandoned, so that's not an option.

B&O tracks to St. Louis don't go through any major cities, only brushing by Centralia IL. Tracks through Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL are a possibility.

 

Northern tracks are Indianapolis - St. Louis thru Terre Haute IN and Effingham IL.

Middle tracks are B&O tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, no major cities served.

Southern tracks are tracks Cincinnati - St. Louis, passing thru Covington KY, Louisville KY, Owensboro KY, Evansville IN, Mt Vernon IL and Centralia IL.

Yellow-Orange tracks are the current Cardinal tracks.

 

Note that track paths are approximate, and they don't exactly follow the tracks.

 

Full Map

Attached File  Cardinal Map.png   1.56MB   9 downloads

 

Zoomed in on east side

Attached File  CardinalMap1.png   1.53MB   9 downloads

 

Zoomed in on west side

Attached File  CardinalMap2.png   1.59MB   9 downloads

 

I made sure that all the tracks along the route were in place, no gaps, etc.

Thanks for reading!


Edited by maxbuskirk, 31 January 2016 - 04:30 PM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#28 maxbuskirk

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 04:47 PM

The Kentucky Cardinal in its final days took 4.5 hrs from CHI-IND, and 8 hrs from IND-Louisville. From April 28 2003 national timetable:

http://www.timetable...0428n&item=0029

 

The section from Indianapolis to Louisville was particularly slow, and only made it a few years on its mail contract.

 

Story on the last Kentucky Cardinal run (both ways). It has a sad ending :( :

http://www.trainweb....h.txGp48R4.dpbs


Edited by maxbuskirk, 31 January 2016 - 04:58 PM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#29 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 05:28 PM

My vote would be for the CIN-STL southern route, stopping in Louisville, Evansville, and Centralia if it can make it between CIN-STL on time and the new schedule is chosen (otherwise you'd be splitting and merging in the middle of the night). You'd add Louisville (and Evansville) to the Amtrak system and they would have access to STL west and CIN and the NEC heading east.

 

If the train can reach Centralia by 5:08pm CT passengers from Louisville and Evansville can catch the northbound Illini to Chicago. The southbound Saluki gets to Centralia at 12:16pm CT. Can you leave Centralia around 1pm CT and get to CIN by 7:30pm ET? If so, then you now have Louisville-Centralia-Chicago both ways. Otherwise, you'd have to go all the way to STL and take a Lincoln service train. Maybe you can move the Saluki earlier.

 

Who owns the CIN-STL southern route through Louisville? The IND-STL northern route?


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 31 January 2016 - 05:29 PM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#30 maxbuskirk

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:02 PM

As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.

 

Connect from Cardinal 7:46A

CIN 8:00A

LVL 11:00A/11:15A

[Time Change Eastern to Central]

CEN 6:15P

The Illini already departed an hour ago

STL 8:15P

Texas Eagle already departed at 8:00P. Even if we eliminate the 15-minute wait at LVL, it still wouldn't work because the train would get in right when the TXE is leaving.

 

Texas Eagle hasn't arrived yet

STL 6:45A

CEN 8:45A (A Carbondale-Centralia-Louisville train isn't that useful . . .)

[Time Change Central to Eastern]

LVL 5:45P/6:00P

CIN 9:00P

Connect to Cardinal 9:17P

 

Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.

 

The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.

 

The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.

 

The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).

The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).


I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#31 railbuck

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 12:16 AM

Hopefully the Hoosier State is doing well and Iowa Pacific might start thinking bigger.

 

It's INDOT that needs to start thinking bigger.  If they do, it seems likely that IP would work with them to implement whatever route they are willing to fund.



#32 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 07:44 AM

As of April 27, 1958, It took L&N 3 hrs to complete CIN-LVL, and 10 hrs to complete LVL-STL, for a total of 13 hrs CIN-STL. It took L&N 2.5 hours to complete Mt.Vernon - St. Louis, and Amtrak 2 hours to complete CEN-STL (when the River Cities was running), and no rural Illinois track would be a bunch faster after 23 years after passenger train cancellation, so I have put those into the timetable as is. Even if Amtrak could do 13 hours today, it wouldn't work with a connection to the Texas Eagle nor the Illini/Saluki.

 

Even with your 7:40am arrival in Cincinnati and 9:17pm departure, this isn't gonna work, the route is way too slow. And I don't think today's trains would be a lot more faster. The Super Chief went a few hours faster than today's Southwest Chief, so L&N had the capability to fast trains on here. The route and tracks is just too slow.

 

The Northern IND-STL route was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad for the whole route.

 

The Central CIN-STL route was owned by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) for the whole route.

 

The Southern CIN-LVL-STL route was owned by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N) from Louisville KY to Mt. Vernon IL. Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO was owned by the Southern Railway (SOU).

The tracks from Mt. Vernon IL to St. Louis MO on the L&N were abandoned and didn't go through Centralia IL, so I chose the Southern Railway path instead (which is more north than the L&N path).

 

Then I would do the northern IND-STL route so two stops, Terre Haute and Effingham. I wouldn't be as concerned about the Illini/Saluki connection north which would only be used by one city (Terre Haute). If you used the old National Limited schedules, there should be enough time to make it between the Cardinal departure/arrival into IND and the Texas Eagle departure/arrival into STL.

 

Now with the CIN-Louisville pairing taking around 3-4 hrs, you could extend my Ohio State Limited south to Louisville. Depending on which schedule you use, you are looking at a morning departure from Louisville and an evening arrival into Louisville. But they would need turning/storage facilities (then again so would Cincinnati if you had a full overnight NYP-CIN with sleepers rather than the through cars that were suggested by AAO). Extending then to Nashville (around 6 hrs) would put the arrival/departure times in the graveyard shift then. 

 

This is getting too ambitious now but the OSL can then go to Louisville and then to St. Louis the next day traveling overnight during those 10 hrs Louisville-St. Louis. The train would then depart STL the previous night and arrive in Louisville the next morning. So NYP-STL would require two overnights (leave NYP Sunday night and arrive STL Tuesday morning) so I'm guessing no one will travel the full route.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#33 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 08:09 AM

A long time ago (1979), there were two trains that ran from CHI to Texas, the Inter-American that traveled through STL (pretty much the current TE route) and the Lone Star that traveled through KCY and OKC. 

 

http://discuss.amtra...etric/?p=638634

 

They used the metric passenger miles per train mile (PM/TM). It found that the Lone Star had almost twice the PM/TM of the Inter-American. The 1979 study recommended saving both of them but the Lone Star was the one cut while the Inter American became the Texas Eagle route today.

 

My plans if I were in charge in 1979 (I was just a kid back then though) would have been to merge the Inter-American and National Limited (a train traveling from STL to NYP at the time via IND and Columbus) to create a train from the NEC to Texas via STL (the Inter-American would then not serve CHI while the Lone Star would). You've essentially saved both lines with the exception of the CHI-STL portion of the Inter-American (which was already served).

 

In a really, really dream world, you can extend one of these trains from the NEC to STL to Texas along the current TE route through Little Rock and then reroute the current TE to serve KCY and OKC (you can even split/merge the SWC and TE at KCY). So Texas would have a train to CHI via KCY and a train to the NEC via STL. So maybe that STL leg off the Cardinal becomes a Texas leg. OK, that's too ambitious.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#34 neroden

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:49 AM

The main problem preventing the Lone Star restoration is train-hostile state governments in Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas.

(On another topic... when Texas "goes blue" as it is demographically expected to do soon, the southern border is going to be a large part of that majority in the legislature. Maybe it's worth thinking seriously about routes to Brownsville and Laredo.)
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#35 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 06:46 AM

Reconsidering Louisville/Nashville service:

 

The last Kentucky Cardinal took about 5 hrs between IND and Louisville.

 

The Floridian (1978: http://www.timetable...0430&item=0041) took about 4 hrs between Louisville and Nashville

 

Assuming the Hoosier State ran daily in the current Hoosier State/Cardinal times (6:00am departure from IND to CHI, 11:50pm arrival to IND from CHI), you could have

 

                                 850                          851

Chicago (CT)           5:45pm                    10:05am

Indianapolis (ET)     11:50pm/12:30am   5:00am/6:00am

Louisville (ET)          5:30am/6:00am       11:30pm/12:00am

Bowling Green (CT) 7:15am                    8:15pm

Nashville (CT)          9:00am                    6:30pm

 

The Louisville times aren't great but not deal breakers IMO. Louisville probably would take anything right now. You would have overnight between CHI and Nashville. 

 

Another possibility is a Nashville to Cincinnati with connections to the shifted Cardinal

 

Cincinnati (to/from  NEC)   (51) 7:36am           (50) 9:27pm        

 

                                           451                          450                  

Cincinnati (ET)                    9:00am                   8:30pm

Louisville (ET)                     1:00pm                   4:30pm

Bowling Green (CT)            2:45pm                   12:45pm

Nashville (CT)                     4:00pm                   11:30am

 

I'm not sure if there is any precedence for two through cars on the same train. If possible, the Cardinal can have trains CIN-Nashville and IND-STL. But even if it requires a transfer at CIN, the times aren't horrible like the current ones are. Who would want to arrive in CIN in the middle of the night and spend 2-3 hrs in CIN's station? The northbound train can be pushed up if it can't get to CIN by 8:30pm on a regular basis.

 

The IND to Nashville would be overnight and require a sleeper but the CIN to Nashville would be roughly a day train.

 

If Louisville, Bowling Green, and Nashville had both these trains, they can use CHI to connect westward and CIN to connect eastward (and with the earlier Cardinal arrival into WAS, maybe even south to Florida on the SM and Atlanta on the Crescent). Also, Louisville and Nashville would have two trains between the cities a day.

 

So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 02 February 2016 - 07:48 AM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#36 Eric S

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 08:41 AM

So then the question is how do Kentucky and/or Tennessee feel about funding trains? Did Kentucky contribute to the Kentucky Cardinal when it ran?

 

My guess is that it's unlikely KY and TN would fund intercity passenger trains at this time. And, no, KY did not subsidize the Kentucky Cardinal's operations. (I think either the city or state may have funded some infrastructure to extend the train over the Ohio River into Louisville itself, but I could be wrong about that. Initially the train's terminus was Jeffersonville IN [suburban Louisville].)



#37 neroden

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 11:23 PM

In Tennessee, the locality pushing hardest for train service is currently Chattanooga. Memphis seems to be interested in the possibility of an additional frequency to Chicago. Nashville keeps trying ineffectually to expand its commuter rail.

In Kentucky, the last train advocacy I can remember was for Louisville-Lexington service and it's gone completely dormant. There doesn't seem to be any active group advocating for anything else. If any city wants service it's Louisville, but the advocacy level is pretty low even by American standards; it seems more dormant than the advocacy for Scranton, PA service. Perhaps the best that can be done for Kentucky in the medium term is to make the Cardinal daily.
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#38 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:38 AM

Maybe the CIN-Nashville and/or IND-STL routes can be considered part of the Cardinal. There's no precedence for two through car branches off the same train, maybe this can be the guinea pig. Technically they could make the IND-STL route a part of the Texas Eagle but then technically they would have two through car branches (if you consider the Sunset Limited a through car branch of the TE). Could they run either or both and require a cross platform transfer and still consider them part of the Cardinal (according to the PRIIA, the SL will essentially become a NOL-SAS branch of the TE)?

 

Which set of tracks are in better shape, the IND-STL route or the CIN-Nashville route? The STL connection would be important for a connection from the Cardinal to the Texas Eagle in STL (especially if the Cardinal connections in CHI are broken) but the ability to add two new major cities to the Amtrak system is also appealing as well.

 

Right now my base plan would be:

 

Daily Hoosier State CHI-IND using the current Hoosier State/Cardinal schedule.

Daily Cardinal CHI-NYP with eastbound leaving 6 hrs earlier and westbound leaving 6 hrs later so the trains can serve CIN at better hours.

 

Any additional service (STL branch, CIN-Nashville, extension of Hoosier State to either Louisville/Nashville or Cincinnati) would be gravy.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#39 maxbuskirk

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 07:16 PM

What do you mean by gravy?

 

I basically agree with your idea. The New River Gorge and Huntington WV has to go (it's for the best), or otherwise served by a (NYP)-WAS-HUN-WAS-(NYP) day train (kinda like the Palmetto).

I'm also thinking that the Hoosier State schedule could be . . . changed somehow? But then, there's nothing better. 

And sorry for saying that the Kentucky Cardinal took 8 hours IND-LVL. That was just padding I assume (4 hours though? :blink:), and indeed it took only 4 hrs 10 mins LVL-IND. Probably would take 5-6 hrs today, like you said.

 

Time for Kentucky to get more trains! 


I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).


#40 maxbuskirk

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 08:39 PM

In a dream world, this would happen.

Yellow is existing service, Red is discussed possible service, magenta is possible, but not absolutely needed, and pink is wishful thinking.

 

Attached File  Dream1.png   1.36MB   7 downloads


Edited by maxbuskirk, 07 February 2016 - 08:55 PM.

I have ridden Cascades #516 (SEA-STW), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-SLO), Southwest Chief #4 (LAX-CHI), Cardinal #50 (CHI-NYP), Northeast Regional #85 (NYP-WAS), Capitol Limited #30 (HFY-WAS), Coast Starlight #14 (LAX-PDX), and many Pacific Surfliners with Amtrak. I have seen, including the previous, California Zephyr #5 at SAC (with luck), what I guess to be Crescent #19 (at WAS) and Silver Meteor #97 (at WAS), and Empire Builder #28 at PDX. I have also ridden the Hokutosei in Japan, Ueno - Sapporo (now discontinued).





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