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#21 jis

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:09 AM

Eurostar offers a typical load of 2tph (occasionally upto 4tph) in each direction between Cocquelle (French end of the tunnel) and Fretin Triangle (where the Brussels service goes north and the Paris service goes south).DB might add another tph in each direction to the mix. From thence the load offered by Eurostar on the LGV Nord Line is typically 1tph in each direction with very occasional 2tph. DB might add one more tph to the north from Fretin Triangle when its Frankfurt service materializes. We are a long long way from needing another pair of tracks. LGVs can typically handle 12 to 15tph in each direction. The French have also become considerably more stingy with funding new LGV since the more recent additions are not even recovering their operating cost fully, let alone pay down their capital. But in any case, it is not Eurostar traffic that will cause the Lille to Paris direct link to be built, but it will be growth of Thalys traffic and traffic to Lille and other destinations in northern France. Eurostar load is noise in the mix.


Edited by jis, 06 February 2016 - 12:21 PM.


#22 PerRock

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:39 AM

I am trying to find information, but I have not been able to locate it:
 
Does anyone know how many trains per hour the busy LGV Nord section sees, and why the Eurostar shares these tracks, rather than have it's own alignment that runs parallel to the LGV Nord in France?


I don't have numbers to back this up but...

I do not think the LGV Nord is as busy as you think it is.

For a couple reasons:
1) While yes SNCF has TGV trains, they are the more expensive rail-travel option. The vast majority of travelers along the LGV Nord route are going to be taking the regular Regional and EuroCity trains, not the TGVs.
2) The LGVs are already a dedicated ROW from the standard-rail line. The only trains that travel on the LGVs are TGVs & Eurostars (I'm not even certain if the ICE trains get to travel on them) All the slower regional, EuroCity, RER, etc trains run on separate lines. It's not like the NEC where everything is bunched together on 4 tracks.

So if you really wanted to know how many trains traveled on the LGV Nord line, pick a station on the line and count the number of TGVs passing thru it; add the Eurostars and you have a good approximation.

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#23 Jean

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 01:48 AM

Just to depart from the technical, we (my husband and I) hope to travel on Eurostar from London to Avignon, then return from Paris to London several weeks later.  This would probably be in May.  Is it worth paying for business class?  Any tips in general?  This will probably be our one and only trip on it.

Thanks,

 

Jean



#24 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 03:38 AM

Just to depart from the technical, we (my husband and I) hope to travel on Eurostar from London to Avignon, then return from Paris to London several weeks later.  This would probably be in May.  Is it worth paying for business class?


That's an ambiguous question. Is what worth paying for business class?

Edited by Devil's Advocate, 08 February 2016 - 03:38 AM.

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#25 cirdan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:13 AM

So it sounds like the Channel Tunnel is a bit constrained by its mixing of traffic on only two tracks. Has there ever been talk of either two more bores (four tracks total) or an additional two-track tunnel? Glancing at Wiki, I don't see anything myself.

 

Yes, there has.

 

The original Channel Tunnel concession gave Eurotunnel (as inEurotunnel plc, the publically traded company) the right (that is, the monopoly) to build a channel tunnel. The condition was that by a certain date, they must either present a proposal for a second tunnel, and if they fail to do that, anybody else can present said project, and hence that monopoly ends.

 

That date expired some years back. I think Eurotunnel did hand in a pro-forma proposal for an additiona bore to protect its monopoly but the governemnts of France and the UK declined to reply to it, knowing full well it was a pro forma piece of paperwork not intended to be acted on. It is unlikely to be acted on as the present Eurotunbnel company is pretty much lumbered with debt and couldn't possibly raise the capital for a second tunnel, and there isn't really the traffic to justify it. Fortunately for them, much the same reason is preventing anybody else from building one so they're safe for now.


Edited by cirdan, 08 February 2016 - 05:30 AM.


#26 cirdan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:19 AM

The Siemens sets are additions. The entire original fleet is being refurbished. In addition apparently DB intends to use modified ICE sets to make them compatible with the Eurotunnel emergency protocols, for service between Frankfurt and London within the next several years using the EU free access rules.

 

 

 

From waht I've heard, not the entire original fleet is being refurbished, but only those presently in traffic. Several surplus sets are leased to SNCF and it would appear SNCF doesn't want to keep them long term and Eurotunnel doesn't want them back so they are likely to be disposed of within the next 5 year horizon. SNCF is also disposing of its Réseau sets, with the first two sets already being out of traffic, but none scrapped so far. The Eurostar sets are more less the same technology.



#27 cirdan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:26 AM

HSR-1 from London to Dollands Moor has plenty of additional capacity yet to be used. Most of the traffic in the channel tunnel is road traffic ferries. At present there is at most 4tph each way of Eurostar traffic through the tunnel. It is nowhere near a congestion point so there is no need to worry about spending another 40 billion or so Euros.

There is still plenty of spare capacity on HS1 but not everything that goes down HS1 also goes into the tunnel. There are the javelin suburban services for example. 

 

In the past freight didn't run on HS1 but used the legacy network, for which the dual mode class 92 locomotives were required. This was not a good idea as those lines are already pretty congested with suburban trains and furthermore getting trains from the South of London to the North of London required some pretty convoluted routing. Increasingly these freights are using HS1. 



#28 cirdan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:27 AM

Surprisingly enough the Eurotunnel's conventional freight services have thus far represented the primary threat to life and limb for Eurostar passengers. The passenger trains themselves are modern, fast, safe, and reliable. Unfortunately the freight services have been far less so. Personally I would prefer that the tunnel regulators focus on preventing unnecessary disasters by clamping down on sloppy shippers and lazy lorry operators/maintainers rather than focusing on restricting passenger rail operations in an effort to survive avoidable disasters.

 

I disagree.

 

The truck carrying trains have been the cause of most incidents. I'm not aware of a conventional freight causing any serious trouble.



#29 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 08:42 AM

Surprisingly enough the Eurotunnel's conventional freight services have thus far represented the primary threat to life and limb for Eurostar passengers. The passenger trains themselves are modern, fast, safe, and reliable. Unfortunately the freight services have been far less so. Personally I would prefer that the tunnel regulators focus on preventing unnecessary disasters by clamping down on sloppy shippers and lazy lorry operators/maintainers rather than focusing on restricting passenger rail operations in an effort to survive avoidable disasters.

 
I disagree. The truck carrying trains have been the cause of most incidents. I'm not aware of a conventional freight causing any serious trouble.


I don't think we disagree so much as I simply consider conventional tractor trailers on conventional freight trains to be "conventional freight." Also, in the future please consider using the [MultiQuote] button rather than quadruple-posting a series of discrete replies.

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#30 jis

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:21 AM

 

Several surplus sets are leased to SNCF and it would appear SNCF doesn't want to keep them long term and Eurotunnel doesn't want them back so they are likely to be disposed of within the next 5 year horizon.

Eurotunnel? Did you mean the outfit that runs Eurostars, which I understand is quite distinct from Eurotunnel, specially after the British government divested itself of the ownership? Why would Eurotunnel want to acquire a bunch of passenger equipment?


Edited by jis, 08 February 2016 - 09:22 AM.


#31 cirdan

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:25 AM

 

Several surplus sets are leased to SNCF and it would appear SNCF doesn't want to keep them long term and Eurotunnel doesn't want them back so they are likely to be disposed of within the next 5 year horizon.

Eurotunnel? Did you mean the outfit that runs Eurostars, which I understand is quite distinct from Eurotunnel, specially after the British government divested itself of the ownership? Why would Eurotunnel want to acquire a bunch of passenger equipment?

 

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry abut the typo



#32 Andrew

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 07:38 AM

It would be cool if the LGV Picardie gets built.



#33 ScouseAndy

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 02:18 AM

 


1) While yes SNCF has TGV trains, they are the more expensive rail-travel option. The vast majority of travelers along the LGV Nord route are going to be taking the regular Regional and EuroCity trains, not the TGVs.

 

 

TGV is not always the more expensive. If booked in advance and travel off peak TGV can be cheaper than traditional trains. This is because in France intercitie trains have fixed pricing but TGV have dynamic pricing.






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