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Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)


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#41 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 04:28 PM


... how to introduce/re-introduce Amtrak to the largest metro areas that do not have service.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ice#cite_note-4


Nashville:

You could probably go in several directions:

a) to IND/CHI via Louisville (which would take care of Louisville as well),

b) to ATL,

c) ...

Maybe you can have a CHI-ATL train through Nashville. But I'm not aware of any practical routes. 

 

Louisville:

You could go to IND/CHI or to CIN. Perhaps you can combine with Nashville. ...

...

 

That's how it would go: Nashville-Bowling Green-Louisville-Indianapolis-Chicago.

 

Indianapolis is so badly served by Amtrak that it deserves a mention here. The segment Indianapolis-Chicago is the bastard child of passenger rail city pairs. Nearby, with large populations, strong business links, connections at Chicago to the national system. The route was part of the Midwest HSR plans. But, it happens.

 

Now the poor Cardinal runs only 3 times a week, a schedule designed to fail. Then the state of Indiana more or less pays for the Hoosier State for the other 4 days of the week. The route is convoluted and congested and most of all slow. A study for the Dept of Highways was lacking stuff, but concluded that half an hour could easily be cut from the trip time by upgrading the tracks within Indiana alone (not including any future upgrades in Illinois).

 

So about $250 million for two long sidings and rehab of the existing tracks to get trains from Indy into Chicago half an hour earlier. Adding another departure or two on the corridor could get riders home from the business trip by bedtime.

 

Indiana is not gonna invest $250 million. It would need a large federal match before any such thing could happen. But get a daily Cardinal, two more corridor trains Indy-CHI (as per the Dept of Highways study), a train Nashville-Louisville-Indy-CHI and another ATL-Knoxville-Louisville-Indy-CHI, and perhaps one or two Cincy-Indy-CHI, and this corridor would really hum.


Edited by WoodyinNYC, 28 December 2015 - 04:32 PM.


#42 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 04:43 PM

 

 

I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.

"Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"

So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?

How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...

"Largest Metros That Want New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"

 
How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.

 


So what actual proof do you have to back up your guarantee?

My own city modified our charter to prevent any rail based passenger service from using public funds or public land unless majority approved by a citywide vote ahead of time. Non-rail passenger services are exempted from this uniquely punitive restriction. Numerous other cities and states have elected staunchly anti-rail politicians to represent their interests. Even if the people who voted for such officials secretly want more passenger rail it's not worth fighting their silly bipolar battles for them. Better to spend that time and money matching funds and effort from staunchly pro-rail areas instead.

 

 

Forgot to say "can't" guarantee.


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
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#43 west point

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 08:38 PM

If those 2 sidings could be built arrivals in CHI could be guaranteed if the CHI mess can be mitigated.  During this past few days around Christmas 51 & 851 have arrived CUS over 30 minutes early



#44 neroden

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:01 AM

Speaking of whether cities want Amtrak service, I've seen very strong indications that the border cities on the Rio Grande (Brownsville and McAllen) would love to have Amtrak service. I also see every indication that the state government will do whatever it can to make sure they don't get it. Or any other public services.

It can be interesting to analyze the politics of these locations. It's obvious that more populous metro areas have more potential for train service (more passengers), so it's interesting to try to figure out the dynamics which are preventing train service in some of these places.

Edited by neroden, 29 December 2015 - 05:01 AM.

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#45 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 31 December 2015 - 03:01 PM

Amtrak-less markets with 500,000 or more people:

 

Phoenix:

Is a return to the old route practical? How about a separate train from LAX to Phoenix?

This is the biggest, but probably the hardest to fix.

 

First get daily service on the Sunset Ltd or Texas Eagle or whatever it will be called when it's done. That move will double ridership, and that fact alone will make a compelling case for further investment. The PRIIA study suggested that the Phoenix market would be helped the most by daily service. With the current 3-days-a-week plan, no shuttle bus or limo service connecting Mariposa to the cluster of cities that comprise the market can make money. (What are they supposed to do with the vehicles and drivers the other 4 days a week?) So it doesn't happen. With 7-days-a-week operations, they could make money just like they do serving the airport.

 

One big step toward the daily service got a big boost in the past round of TIGER grants. The present station at Maricopa has short platforms, so the Sunset has to stop twice to unload and load passengers. Meanwhile, it blocks one of the town's main streets during the morning rush hour. That level crossing will be replaced by a grade-separated crossing. The station will be moved down the way a bit, to get its own track. This move will allow the UP's freights to pass while the Sunset is in the station. Everyone will win.

 

The sad history of service to Phoenix you can research on Wikipedia. Basically, an Amtrak train was sabotaged and crashed into an arroyo, in what may have been domestic terrorism, or perhaps an act disgruntled crazy employee. The authorities claim not to know, or not to have a provable case, so the public does not know who or why. Not too long after the derailment, the UP decided to move its main line out of the heart of Phoenix, to the bypass thru exurban Maricopa.

 

To return service to downtown Phoenix -- a city with a growing population and a growing light rail system -- would require rebuilding the tracks on the old right of way. Not easy, and not cheap. Maybe one day a commuter line could be put on part of the route to share the costs of rehab and operation. But not cheap and not soon.

 

There's been a lot of talk about a state-supported corridor between the largest cities: Tucson-Phoenix. But the other day I stumbled onto a link from the FRA page to a recent study of that route, with a rough estimate of $4.7 Billion to build it. Let me repeat that: An estimated $4.7 Billion for about 120 miles.

 

Meanwhile the proposed South of the Lake upgrades, from CHI to the already upgraded Michigan corridors, has a rough estimate of $2.5 Billion. The St Louis-CHI route has used $1 Billion for the first stage, another Billion or Two is needed for the second stage. Nobody in the Midwest is talking $4.7 Billion.

 

Well, O.K., the SEHSR route D.C.-Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh night get close to that figure, with the new Long Bridge over the Potomac, urban congestion, and a lot of rebuilt track. But how does Arizona claim $4.7 Billion for 120 miles when most of it is open desert? Anyway, putting out a number like that kills enthusiasm for Tucson-Phoenix, much less Tucson-L.A. (about 500 miles).

 

++++++++++++++++++++

 

btw Maricopa is the textbook example of the importance of close-in stations, or not. Ridership at the smaller city of Tucson, with a city center station, was 28,700 last year. Meanwhile exurban Maricopa, standing in for Phoenix, gathered only 12,100 passengers.


Edited by WoodyinNYC, 31 December 2015 - 03:46 PM.


#46 neroden

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Posted 01 January 2016 - 08:50 AM

Arizona routinely sandbags studies of train service by pretending that they'll cost far more than they actually will. If one of them gets approved anyway, expect it to come in under budget (as the Phoenix Light Rail did).
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#47 Chicoan

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the Wikipedia link, Philly Amtrak Fan!

 

I was thinking about this just the other day. Amtrak can't serve every town in America, but in a perfect world they could hit the "sweet spot" cities: those metro areas with at least 100-200k people and poor commercial flight options. It is quite frustrating when an existing route could serve a nearby metro (and boost ridership), but doesn't due to host RR issues or other obstacles. 

 

My desire would include the following modifications to western routes:

 

Southwest Chief reroute to Pueblo

Sunset Limited service to both Phoenix and Las Cruces

California Zephyr service to Des Moines instead of southern IA

Coast Starlight serving Medford and Roseburg instead of Klamath Falls

Regarding Medford/Ashland  -- There are still tracks over the very significant pass between Northern California and Southern Oregon (Ashland). In fact as per this article in the local paper, freight service was recently restored, though the line gets limited use. Another hopeful idea might be to extend Cascades incrementally south from Eugene. http://www.dailytidi.../NEWS/150519795



#48 neroden

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:31 AM

If Oregon ever wanted to put in real money (sigh) a reroute over the Medford route would be very successful.  Klamath Falls is no loss.  The Medford route needs a lot of money to bring it up to decent speeds, though, and I just don't see Oregon putting in the money in the next decade or two.


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#49 John Bredin

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:09 AM

 

I honestly don't understand the goal of a thread like this.

"Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)"

So are we going to waste time and money bringing new transportation services to people who never wanted them and probably won't use them anyway?

How about we consider changing the topic to something more like this...

"Largest Metros That Want New/More/Better Amtrak Services (How to Serve Them?)"

 

How do you know markets that either have never had Amtrak or had it and lost it don't want or wouldn't use Amtrak? Do you have proof? Can you show any market who has never had Amtrak specifically say "we don't want it, we won't use it"? I can't guarantee Nashville if they had Amtrak would want/ride it but you can't guarantee they won't.

Beyond (as Philly Amtrak Fan says) confusing the different ideas of political will and ridership demand, which ignores all the vagaries that come with the former,* arguing that "they don't want it" ignores that trains run in both directions  :giggle: and maybe, just maybe, people in cities with Amtrak service want to be able to go to Las Vegas, Nashville, Madison, etc. by train.

 

 

*For example, Madison as a city & metro area quite wanted Amtrak service, the extension of the successful and relatively frequent Hiawatha service at mostly Federal expense. Scott Walker overruled them.  :angry2:



#50 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 08:56 AM

I (and others) had previous ideas about a 3-C train to serve Columbus and Dayton. Then if the train gets extended between Cincinnati to Louisville and Nashville you would serve four new markets with one train. To make it eligible for federal funding you'd have to extend it to 750 miles. You can go from Cleveland to New York via the LSL route and make it the "Music City Limited". But you'd have nowhere to service an LD train in Nashville. One idea would be to also extend it south to New Orleans along the old Louisville & Nashville Humming Bird Train: http://www.american-...mming-bird.html. That would give Amtrak a 2nd NYP-NOL train but serving Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee instead of the Crescent route and if you use the Humming Bird you also pick up Montgomery and Mobile.

 

Does Amtrak need a 2nd NYP-NOL route? If not, this could become a new NYP-Texas train. You could extend this train to HOS-SAS (now we're looking at a near 2000 mile train?). Or instead of going to NOL go from Birmingham to Meridian and across the Meridian Speedway to Dallas.

 

Using the proposed Cincinnati section of the LSL (http://freepdfhostin.../cf26514bc8.pdf), that would be about 19 hrs between NYP-CIN. CIN-Birmingham (old Humming Bird schedule) would be another 13 hrs. If you did Birmingham-NOL (Crescent) you get 7.5 hrs and NOL-SAS (SL) is 15 hrs. So that adds up to 54.5 hrs (assuming you can run on the HB schedule)! If you did Birmingham-Meridian alone it would be 3 hours and if you use the Thruway Bus schedule it would be 10-11 hrs. That would be about 46 hours NYP-DAL. I'd have to play around with the schedule but my initial though would be overnight through upper New York State with the second overnight south of Nashville. 


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#51 A Voice

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:59 AM

One idea would be to also extend it south to New Orleans along the old Louisville & Nashville Humming Bird Train: http://www.american-...mming-bird.html. That would give Amtrak a 2nd NYP-NOL train but serving Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee instead of the Crescent route and if you use the Humming Bird you also pick up Montgomery and Mobile.

 

Does Amtrak need a 2nd NYP-NOL route?

 

Just for the sake of argument, we need to avoid the trap of an endpoint mentality anyway, because relatively few passengers travel the entire distance.  Two trains on mostly or completely different routes, even between the same origin and destination, serve two different markets and complement rather than compete with each other (for instance, Cardinal and Lake Shore Limited, New York to Chicago).  



#52 LookingGlassTie

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 12:46 PM

I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there.   From what I can tell, there are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally):  Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


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#53 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 12:57 PM

I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there.   From what I can tell, there are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally):  Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.

 

The Carolinian is out since it's a state funded train and why would North Carolina pay to extend a train to Georgia (and if they did, Atlanta would be the more popular destination although it's a mess down there).

 

How would you reroute one of the Silvers or the Palmetto to serve Augusta?


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#54 jis

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 02:42 PM

Palmetto and Silver Meteor are completely out of the question. Theoretically Silver Star is a possibility, but it would probably require adding another several hours to its already excrutiatingly long itinerary, if possible at all on the routing Columbia - Augusta - Savannah


Edited by jis, 20 December 2016 - 08:13 AM.


#55 LookingGlassTie

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:45 PM

That all makes sense.   Being a newbie still, I know very little about the logistics of train routings and all the implications of such.

 

Which is one reason why I joined this forum, to learn more about the inner workings of rail travel...............:)


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#56 jphjaxfl

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 06:41 AM

I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there.   From what I can tell, therre are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally):  Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.

 

Augusta had a beautiful Union Station that has been torn down that was well served by trains into the mid 1960s.  Atlantic Coast Line later Seaboard Coast Line ran trains to Augusta with through car from New York.  Georgia Railroad ran trains from Augusta to Atlanta and included through cars from ACL from New York.  Southern ran the Augusta Special to Augusta with the through Sleeping cars from New York.  The Georgia Railroad did not join Amtrak and continued to operate their mixed train from Augusta to Atlanta, though the train departed from the freight yards in both cities.  Today there is very little evidence existing in Augusta to show passenger trains ever served the city.  So Georgia would need to provide some funding for the service and the City of Augusta would need to provide some infrastructure for what was demolished.  That is very likely not going to happen.



#57 AmtrakBlue

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:07 AM

 

I have family in Augusta, so it would be great to have Amtrak stop there.   From what I can tell, therre are (4) possible train routes that could service the CSRA (that's what the Augusta metro area is known by locally):  Palmetto, Carolinian, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.

 

Augusta had a beautiful Union Station that has been torn down that was well served by trains into the mid 1960s.  Atlantic Coast Line later Seaboard Coast Line ran trains to Augusta with through car from New York.  Georgia Railroad ran trains from Augusta to Atlanta and included through cars from ACL from New York.  Southern ran the Augusta Special to Augusta with the through Sleeping cars from New York.  The Georgia Railroad did not join Amtrak and continued to operate their mixed train from Augusta to Atlanta, though the train departed from the freight yards in both cities.  Today there is very little evidence existing in Augusta to show passenger trains ever served the city.  So Georgia would need to provide some funding for the service and the City of Augusta would need to provide some infrastructure for what was demolished.  That is very likely not going to happen.

 

My family moved for Augusta to Delaware in '67 and my mom, 2 sisters, 1 dog & 1 cat took the train.  Wish I could remember the station, but being 11 at the time, I only have vague memories of the trip.  But I'm sure it planted the seed to want to travel by train again (and again and again....)



#58 Seaboard92

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 11:48 AM

Could service a train in Nashville fairly easy. All you would need is to lease space in the Tennessee Central Railway Museums coach yard. It has HEP ground plugs and a decent platform. I'm sure they would welcome the income.
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#59 WICT106

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 11:59 AM

We also have to keep in mind that, for large areas of the United States. the citizens have virtually no experience riding trains on a regular basis.  With that in mind, it is no surprise when the average citizen sees no value, and no point, in spending money for something that passes through his or her town at the small hours of the night, and only once per day each way ( if they even have service at all ), and is not able to come up with a readily acceptable & available reason that people will ride a train.  As we attempt to grow and expand the network, we, as advocates and passengers, have to be able to explain why folks will use a train to those who are accustomed to driving everywhere. 


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#60 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:12 PM

We also have to keep in mind that, for large areas of the United States. the citizens have virtually no experience riding trains on a regular basis.  With that in mind, it is no surprise when the average citizen sees no value, and no point, in spending money for something that passes through his or her town at the small hours of the night, and only once per day each way ( if they even have service at all ), and is not able to come up with a readily acceptable & available reason that people will ride a train.  As we attempt to grow and expand the network, we, as advocates and passengers, have to be able to explain why folks will use a train to those who are accustomed to driving everywhere. 

 

For that reason, I would recommend any new stations/areas should be scheduled outside the graveyard shift to give them a better chance of success. Schedule the graveyard shift for areas that already have other trains available.


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/





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