Jump to content




Help Support AmtrakTrains.com by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.

Photo

Comparing Amtrak Schedules, Past vs. Present


  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#61 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,760 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 11 August 2016 - 05:39 PM

 

Looking specifically at LD trains, only two states (IL and VA) clearly have more service than PA, and most of the other 47 have substantially less.

Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones.

 
Auto Train would be the exception to that statement.  The number of stops in VA, though, offsets the slight advantage PA has in the number of LD trains.

 

Yeah I did think about that for a moment but decided it is just a special case which does not really give any special advantage to VA since a more than significant part of its riders drive to it from north of VA anyway.. But point taken.

 

He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.

 
Yeah, I'd like to see the Broadway come back, too, but there does seem to be quite an obsession.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see it come back too. And at least I have put in a little bit of effort where it matters, about the through cars from the Pennsy to the Cap than sitting and moaning obsessively and endlessly about it here. :)



#62 Seaboard92

Seaboard92

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:-Amtrak
    -New York Central
    -Seaboard Airline
    -Scriptwriting

Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:37 PM

Honestly I don't like the argument that would you rather have more trains that are crappy and serve more routes. We are lucky things have stabilized and things have gotten better. Had Amtrak not come when it did I would be willing to bet ridership would be lower today then where it is. And I'm willing to bet that if the service level the Penn Central, Southern Pacific, and several other fallen flags had continued we might not even have long distance trains at all. If your service is crappy and one step above squatter you won't have return business. No return business your ridership would completely collapse. You might get a new passenger once in awhile but they wouldn't return. So we would lose all around.

View my pictures at http://trainboy1.rrpicturearchives.net

Amtrak Routes I've riden: Silver Star(NYP-ORL), Silver Meteor(KIS-NYP),Carolinian(CLT-NWK), Palmetto (FLO-NYP), Acela(WAS-NYP), NE Regional(WBG-RVR), Pacific Surfliner(SAN-OSD), Piedmont(CLT-SAL), Crescent(NYP-CLT), Cardinal (WAS-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Cascade (PDX-SEA)

Steam Engines I've worked behind

Norfolk & Western No. 611

Nickel Plate Road No. 765

Southern Pacific No. 4449

 


#63 MARC Rider

MARC Rider

    Conductor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 800 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 August 2016 - 05:14 AM

If you study the Penn Central you will actually find out today's trains are better then what we had back then. Back then hvac worked fifty percent of the time as well as the lights. Along with other issues. Including water between the double panes of glass creating a defacto aquarium. So in ways we've come far and lost a lot


I rode the NYP -WAS NEC quite a bit during the Penn Central years, and they must have saved all the working cars for the NEC, as I don't remember the kinds of defective cars described here. Every once in awhile you'd get a non AC car from the 1920s (not much older in relative terms to today's Amfleets), and periodically trains would grind to a halt somewhere in Maryland with no explanation from the crew. Of course, trains back then did not have PA systems.

#64 Philly Amtrak Fan

Philly Amtrak Fan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia Area

Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:29 PM

Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones. PA and NY are the only states that are served by all of the single level LD trains that are operated by Amtrak. There is no other state that has this distinction. PA in addition has one Superliner LD train which NY does not.

 

He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.

 

The LSL serves Erie. Good if you live in Erie, not good if you live in Philly (OK you can take an NEC to NYP) or Pittsburgh. By contrast, I doubt people in Pittsburgh or Erie consider the Silver trains their trains just because they pass through Philly. And the state capitol or Lancaster (the Amish are huge LD train customers, I saw quite a few on the CZ) can't go anywhere long distance without a transfer and the Pennsylvanian-CL connection sucks. This isn't even counting Wilkes Barre-Scranton or Allentown-Bethlehem who have no trains at all.

 

In reality, three of the four corners are served. Philly has the Florida trains and the Crescent (and that other one doesn't count, less than 10,000/yr take that train out of Philly), Pittsburgh has the Capitol (eastbound times suck), and Erie has the LSL. Pennsylvania might have all of the trains but no one city/region has "all of them". You can argue Philly has more LD available but to anyone heading west, Chicago is more valuable than Florida. New Orleans is a decent destination but the train is worthless as a transfer point west (unless you want to stay overnight). If there was a same day connection between the Crescent and Sunset, NOL would be more valuable. With the CL, Pittsburgh is in decent shape because you can transfer in Washington using the CL (or Philly using the Pennsylvanian) to the SM/Crescent.

 

Amtrak proposed in the 2011 PRIIA through cars between the Capitol Limited and the Silver Star (https://www.amtrak.c...26-11_final.pdf). That would mean the Star would originate in WAS and not NYP but you'd still have the SM to Florida. I would trade the SS for a BL (in the proposal, the Palmetto would be expanded to Florida to replace the Star so you'd still have two NEC-Florida trains) and then both PHL and PGH would have "good" direct trains to both Chicago and Florida (and Harrisburg/Lancaster would at least have a train to Chicago). Since you can then use Superliners on the WAS-Florida portion of the SS (4 sets CHI-Florida, only one more than the current CL) you can take three of the SS Viewliner sets and use them on a new BL, the other to extend the Palmetto, and best yet, you can keep the Cardinal! 

 

Another PA-friendly idea: CHI-PHL via CLE/PGH/HAR, then south from PHL to Florida. That would reroute the SS (or Fla extended Palmetto) from PHLto CHI instead of PHL to NYP. So HAR has a train to CHI and to Florida. This also gives Wilmington and BAL a faster train to CHI.


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 28 March 2017 - 02:49 PM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#65 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,212 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

I'm trying to remember the configuration of 30th Street Station...aren't trains coming in from Harrisburg already pointed towards Washington due to how the tracks come in?  If so (and I think this is the case) then you've probably got a case to split the Star at Philadelphia (cutting NYP from it comes off as problematic; New York, Newark, and Trenton combine for about 75k riders/year and NYP-RVR is the #3 ridership/#1 revenue pair for the train and that pair will get clobbered by cutting through service).  I'm not sure how something like this would impact runtime, but per the timetables it seems to add 1:30 or so.

 

Ok, let's say we want to run a CHI-PGH-PHL-WAS-MIA train.  I do think an NYP section is needed "both ways"...but there's already a 30-minute pad in the schedule of the Pennsylvanian at 30th Street Station either way.  My thinking is that eastbound/southbound you'd need to have the train come into PHL, pull off the NYP-bound cars and add cars from NYP, and then carry on.  The cars inbound from NYP really shouldn't end up late much.  I'm not sure what the effective time requirement would be to cut one set of cars and add in a replacement set.  Worth considering: I forget what the inspection rules are, but IIRC the LD trains have been constrained to 110 MPH due to Heritage equipment...so you could avoid having to swap locomotives on the "main" train (which would give you some time savings at WAS).  Northbound/westbound you'd remove the NYP-bound cars and add NYP-originating cars as well.  The NYP cars are going to presumably be "no local traffic" cars north of PHL, but I suspect you'd be able to allow to/from traffic elsewhere on the Corridor (presumably with a "warning note" that the train in question is a long-distance train and may not have the spectacular timekeeping of a regular Regional).  I'm thinking that the NYP sections would probably be three coaches, a sleeper, and maybe a bag-dorm and/or a cafe/BC.  Another other option would be to do one move (CHI-NYP) at PHL and the other move (MIA-NYP) at WAS.

FWIW, even with the "long way around" routing this train would arguably be about the same total travel time as a Silver-Cap connection in DC owing to required connection times (and the clunkiness of the connection).  One thing I will say is that this train would require a dining car: Pure runtime CHI-PHL is probably 17:00 (I'm basing this on the Cap-Pennsylvanian times sans the hold-over at PGH) and PHL-ORL is 20:00-21:30 (Meteor vs Star) while PHL-MIA is 25:40-29:30.  Doing a one-night trip with no diner is one thing; doing a two-nighter is probably stretching it a bit (though the adjusted Palmetto would probably end up being the "B-train" on the Florida route).

The main "trick" seems to be fiddling with the schedule so that you still have decent times in RGH and NYP and don't end up in Philly at rush hour.

One thought that came to mind with this: Rather than mucking about with the Star, what if the Palmetto were used instead?  Ignoring the fact that, at present, the Palmetto is basically a "Regional that happens to go to Savannah instead of Hampton Roads" in terms of ridership profile, this does seem like a workable solution (and indeed there's already some equipment shuffling in DC).  I'll work up a timetable on this...
 


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#66 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,212 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:08 PM

    | N--W | S--E |
MIA | 1730 | 1200 |
ORL | 2245 | 0645 |
ORL | 2300 | 0630 |
JAX | 0420 | 0100 |
JAX | 0430 | 0045 |
SAV | 0745 | 2130 |
SAV | 0800 | 2120 |
RVR | 1650 | 1230 |
RVR | 1700 | 1220 |
WAS | 1910 | 1010 |
WAS | 1930 | 0950 |
PHL | 2120 | 0800 |
PHL | 2130 | 0740 |
HAR | 2330 | 0550 |
HAR | 2340 | 0540 |
PGH | 0520 | 0010 |
PGH | 0530 | 0000 |
CHI | 1500 | 1430 |
-------------------
North/West Connection
PHL | 2140 | 2120 |
NYP | 2310 | 1950 |
-------------------
South/East Connection
NYP | 0820 | 0610 |
PHL | 0950 | 0740 |

CHI time is listed as Eastern for my sanity; subtract one hour for local time.

So, the times for Pittsburgh suck...but I can't really make Pittsburgh good and keep Chicago early enough to reliably make the latter batch of regional trains there.  If the train were to be routed via Cleveland/Toledo, you'd also get those cities a daytime train in the process.  I've also got trouble not putting PGH in the middle of the night without either throwing a large pad in somewhere OR putting ORL in the middle of the night, and frankly The Mouse is enough of a traffic generator to overrule PGH.  The solution there is, painful though it might be, to push the EB Cap a bit later (so PGH would have an overnight-ish train in each direction and a daylight-ish train in each direction).  I'd actually consider accepting worse times for PGH for improvements elsewhere.

The equipment turns here are lousy, but given the length of the run I don't think I'd want to risk much less than a twelve-hour turn...and doing that isn't compatible with sane times in Orlando since you've got just over five hours MIA-ORL.

The NYP-PHL times aren't great...but slightly worse times are hiving off 125k/yr out of NYP on the present Palmetto so I think that's acceptable.  I'm still torn on where to do the equipment shuffling in such a plan, too.

I'm trying to guess at what overall ridership would be for this "complex"...I'm thinking probably around 500k: 300k for your "Palmetto-equivalent" and another 200k or so for your "Broadway-equivalent".  You'd "lose" some riders due to the one-seat ride removing a bit of double-counting but you'd gain a batch of them back because of the presence of that single-seat ride.  Also, this shouldn't hurt the Cap too much: CLE and TOL are limited in their impact because of lousy times, and this won't siphon off pax connecting to the West.

One other possibility: Detroit?  You won't lose an equipment set in Chicago (it's got close to a 24-hour layover) but I'm not sure how much you'd add at Detroit versus losing folks at Cleveland/Toledo due to the longer routing.  To be fair, even if that connection is via a bus at least it's not a middle-of-the-night bus.


Edited by Anderson, 29 March 2017 - 02:27 PM.

Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#67 Philly Amtrak Fan

Philly Amtrak Fan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia Area

Posted 29 March 2017 - 04:06 PM

 

One thought that came to mind with this: Rather than mucking about with the Star, what if the Palmetto were used instead?  Ignoring the fact that, at present, the Palmetto is basically a "Regional that happens to go to Savannah instead of Hampton Roads" in terms of ridership profile, this does seem like a workable solution (and indeed there's already some equipment shuffling in DC).  I'll work up a timetable on this...
 

 

Assuming the Palmetto would be extended to Florida, not a problem. As long as there are two NYP-Florida trains and one CHI-Florida train. 

 

If this plan goes through there will be two Chicago-Pittsburgh trains. Assuming the current CL schedule and Anderson's proposed schedule, one western train would be near midnight and one would be 5:30am while eastbound one would be near midnight and one around 5:30am. For leaving PGH, midnight is definitely better than 5:30am. For arriving, you either have to leave the station after midnight or before 6am so pick your poison. But at least you have choices. Ideally you'd push the eastbound CL earlier and westbound CL later to improve those PGH times (with a Chicago-Florida train there is less of a need to worry about the connection at WAS). Also the Chicago-Florida train would definitely serve Ohio outside the graveyard shift so that's a definite plus.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#68 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,760 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 29 March 2017 - 04:31 PM

Currently the most likely routing of a Chicago Florida train is via NOL.

#69 Seaboard92

Seaboard92

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:-Amtrak
    -New York Central
    -Seaboard Airline
    -Scriptwriting

Posted 29 March 2017 - 08:24 PM

And the best possible routing is really via Nashville and Atlanta.

The best thing we can hope for is to hold the current network as it is. The Palmetto is one of three profitable trains last I checked I really wouldn't want to mess with it. And the Silver Star is my home train so I'm prepared to fight to keep that one safe.

The north south routes are generally very strong routes. Granted there is a study out there to reroute the Crescent and the Silver Star. With the crescent getting rerouted from ALX to GRO via RGH and the Silver Star getting rerouted ALX to CLB via CLT, CVS. Personally I'm against that as Camden, Hamlet, and Southern Pines would all lose service with that reroute.

The best solution to help all trains is to order new equipment preferably not from CAF as I'll be dead before those arrive and I'm young.

With enough equipment you could get the precious Broadway Limited back. Not what I would do first with new equipment as the unique market is HAR, PHL to CHI. And most people in the effected cities have a three hour one connection ride to a Chicago train. The best way to study if the ridership would even be there to support said train would be to get the thru cars on the Capitol Limited and see if they would justify an individual train.

The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.

The actual private passenger trains all ran south out of CHI in the morning time slot running daytime to the south giving Nashville daylight service both ways. And nighttime from Atlanta or Birmingham to JAX and then running in the silver Meteor Florida time slot.

That's where I would invest maybe the Dixie Flyer route south of Nashville I'm open to other routes north of Nashville.

View my pictures at http://trainboy1.rrpicturearchives.net

Amtrak Routes I've riden: Silver Star(NYP-ORL), Silver Meteor(KIS-NYP),Carolinian(CLT-NWK), Palmetto (FLO-NYP), Acela(WAS-NYP), NE Regional(WBG-RVR), Pacific Surfliner(SAN-OSD), Piedmont(CLT-SAL), Crescent(NYP-CLT), Cardinal (WAS-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Cascade (PDX-SEA)

Steam Engines I've worked behind

Norfolk & Western No. 611

Nickel Plate Road No. 765

Southern Pacific No. 4449

 


#70 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,212 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 30 March 2017 - 01:58 AM

I had heard of the idea to reroute the Star via RGH-CLT-CLB but not one to reroute it via CVS.  This isn't to say that doing so doesn't make sense from some perspective, but I hadn't heard of that.  To be fair, I would probably be inclined to suggest that looking at two sections which either merge or operate in some concert would be a serious option to consider (probably for the Crescent).


Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#71 railiner

railiner

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,079 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, NY
  • Interests:All public transportation....land, sea, and air

Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:34 AM



The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.


Tennessee?
Train 58&59...overnite, every night. Between Memphis and Chicago. :D
metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#72 Seaboard92

Seaboard92

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:-Amtrak
    -New York Central
    -Seaboard Airline
    -Scriptwriting

Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:38 AM

The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.

Tennessee?
Train 58&59...overnite, every night. Between Memphis and Chicago. :D
I'm going with the eastern and central Tennessee. The two areas Nashville and Memphis could all be considered two different states just in how they are culturally.
Nashville currently has a good commuter train system so they already have some experience with trains. Plus they are running an article every so often about the lack of Amtrak. That's a city that gets a right to gripe about no service.

View my pictures at http://trainboy1.rrpicturearchives.net

Amtrak Routes I've riden: Silver Star(NYP-ORL), Silver Meteor(KIS-NYP),Carolinian(CLT-NWK), Palmetto (FLO-NYP), Acela(WAS-NYP), NE Regional(WBG-RVR), Pacific Surfliner(SAN-OSD), Piedmont(CLT-SAL), Crescent(NYP-CLT), Cardinal (WAS-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Cascade (PDX-SEA)

Steam Engines I've worked behind

Norfolk & Western No. 611

Nickel Plate Road No. 765

Southern Pacific No. 4449

 


#73 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,212 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 30 March 2017 - 12:35 PM

Nashville's main problem is geographic isolation.  Also, while I know that NOL is the most likely choice for a through train...well, what can I say?  Yesterday was a frustrating day and I needed the distraction of drawing up a timetable:

       |  30  |  42  |  89  |  91  |  97  |      |
Dp CHI | 1940 | ---- | 1430 | ---- |      |      |
Ar TOL | 2339 | ---- | 1830 | ---- |      |      |
Dp TOL | 2349 | ---- | 1840 | ---- |      |      |
Ar CLE | 0145 | ---- | 2030 | ---- |      |      |
Dp CLE | 0154 | ---- | 2040 | ---- |      |      |
Ar PGH | 0505 | ---- | 0000 | ---- |      |      |
Dp PGH | 0520 | 0730 | 0010 | ---- |      |      |
Ar HAR | 42-> | 1255 | 0540 | ---- |      |      |
Dp HAR | ---- | 1305 | 0550 | ---- |      |      |
Dp NYP | ---- | ---- | 0610*| 1102 | 0315 |      |
Ar PHL | ---- | 1455 | 0740 | 1230 | 1700 |      |
Dp PHL | ---- | 1525 | 0800 | 1235 | 1705 |      |
Ar NYP | ---- | 1650 | 0950*| ---- | ---- |      |
Ar WAS | 1305 | ---- | 0950 | 1435 | 1900 |      |
Dp WAS | ---- | ---- | 1010 | 1505 | 1925 |      |
Ar RVR | ---- | ---- | 1220 | 1707 | 2134 |      |
Dp RVR | ---- | ---- | 1230 | 1717 | 2144 |      |
Ar SAV | ---- | ---- | 2120 | 0413 | 0634 |      |
Dp SAV | ---- | ---- | 2130 | 0418 | 0640 |      |
Ar JAX | ---- | ---- | 0045 | 0639 | 0909 |      |
Dp JAX | ---- | ---- | 0100 | 0659 | 0934 |      |
Ar ORL | ---- | ---- | 0630 | 1006 | 1249 |      |
Dp ORL | ---- | ---- | 0645 | 1020 | 1304 |      |
Ar MIA | ---- | ---- | 1200 | 1758 | 1839 |      |
*Connecting Section/Through Cars

Northeast Corridor Connections to 89
       |  67  | *89  |  64  |      |      |
       | WAS  | PHL  | ->67 |      |      |
Dp ALB | ---- | ---- | 1915 |      |      |
Dp BOS | 2130 | ---- | ---- |      |      |
Ar NYP | 0230 | ---- | 2150 |      |      |
Dp NYP | 0325 | 0610 | ---- |      |      |
Ar PHL | 0452 | 0740 | ---- |      |      |
Dp PHL | 0500 | ---- | ---- |      |      |
Ar WAS | 0700 | ---- | ---- |      |      |

Notheast Corridor Connections from 89
       | *89  | 172  | 233  | 283  |      |
Dp PHL | 0820 | 0920 | ---- | ---- |      |
Ar NYP | 0950 | 1044 | ---- | ---- |      |
Dp NYP | ---> | 1100 | 1120 | 1320 |      |
Ar BOS | ---- | 1515 | ---- | ---- |      |
Ar ALB | ---- | ---- | 1350 | 1545 |      |

Note that if there's no *, there's not a through car service.  The two *89 services are the only ones with explicit through-car service, though 66/67 would be a candidate for such as well (and indeed could arguably take the place of SB *89 above, and NB *90 if I come up with that timetable).

Based on the above, I think I could see a decent case to push the EB Capitol Limited forward by an hour.  More than that would jeopardize a useful 30-42 connection (which is necessary since this version of 89 wouldn't connect with the Western LD trains in Chicago).

There might be some extra time in there...when I checked with a 1994 timetable, the JAX/ORL times for 89 were basically ripped from there but WAS/RVR were earlier in mine (though I think I lined it up with the current timetable).  Could someone check my math?


Edited by Anderson, 30 March 2017 - 12:38 PM.

Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#74 dogbert617

dogbert617

    Lead Service Attendant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, IL

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:23 AM

Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?

 

As I said before, the first Amtrak didn't serve Cleveland or Dallas so I wouldn't want that.

 

The obvious answer would be before the 1979 cuts while the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were still running. Also, the Broadway Limited had the through cars to WAS. Sure, the CL is better for CHI-WAS but the BL was better for BAL. Also, the Cardinal actually served CIN at good hours instead of the current graveyard shift time.

 

However, there was no train service to Las Vegas (Desert Wind, which also connected DEN/SLC with LAX), no train service from Detroit-Toledo, and no train service on the SL east of NOL (that begun in 1993). I'm impartial to the Texas Eagle split to serve Houston via College Station (Southern Pacific?) which wasn't served by the Lone Star (

 

I'm torn between these two eras (before 1979 but after the LSL started and from the beginning of the coast to coast SL to the BL getting axed). So I would say 1978 or 1994. What do you think?

Seems a sweet spot for a good level of Amtrak LD routes throughout the country, was in the mid-90s. The big exceptions I can think of where service is better today vs. the mid-90s(and I might be forgetting 1 or 2 additions where service is better today), were that there was no Maine(Downeaster) or Oklahoma(Heartland Flyer) corridor service. It stinks that there no longer is a Dallas-Houston spur off of what's today the Texas Eagle, though I know there is a throughway bus service from Longview to Houston(and Galveston, upon request based on what I've read about that bus), Sunset Limited east of New Orleans, and the Pioneer(southern Wyoming-Salt Lake City-Boise/southern Idaho-northeast and northern Oregon) and Desert Wind(Salt Lake City-Las Vegas-LA) no longer operating are other losses from the mid-90s, that I wish still existed today. Granted to a limited extent for those in rural northern Oregon(between Hood River to Hinkle-Hermiston, though I bet this isn't utilized much for ex-Pioneer passengers from La Grande, OR to east of there), certain passengers can do a short drive across the Columbia River to southern Washington across the river and take the Portland-Spokane Empire Builder branch for long distance train service. I am aware there's been occasional talk about possibly extending the City of New Orleans, east from NO on the former New Orleans to Jacksonville Sunset Limited route. Not sure if the talk about such a new service would only go to Jacksonville, or also service cities further south of JAX as a 3rd train on top of the 2 Silver trains?

 

And it's funny you mentioned Detroit-Toledo, since Michigan Department of Transportation(which funds all the regional Amtrak Michigan trains) has expressed interest in wanting some sort of Amtrak service to go from MI to/from New York City(and state) once again. One idea to achieve this goal, would be to reroute the Lake Shore Limited on the current Wolverine route, then have it turn off the Chicago-Pontiac Amtrak Wolverine route I believe between Dearborn and Detroit. And the Dearborn station was entirely renovated, only a few years ago.

 

A few additional things I was interested in wondering. When was the Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile Amtrak train eliminated? And was that service in AL a regional train(i.e. Heartland Flyer), or a spur where cars were added/removed at a certain point(i.e. Sunset Limited adding/removing through cars from/to the Texas Eagle at San Antonio, Empire Builder adding/removing through cars at Spokane, and how Amtrak used to add/remove CA Zephyr through cars to/from the Desert Wind in Salt Lake City before that was eliminated). Also I noticed on this 1994 eastern Amtrak system map that Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood used to have Amtrak train service, and today I know there's only throughway bus service that took over for former Amtrak service. Was Amtrak service to Ocala and etc. only eliminated because of track deteriorating condition, or for another reason like Amtrak cost cutting? It'd be sad if the Ocala, FL Amtrak route did share the fate of say like the Pioneer or Desert Wind, but I guess back in the 90s there was a lot of pressure on Amtrak to eliminate routes with low ridership.

 

Also, I'm impressed by this Steamliner train line map I just found, thanks to looking at a different page(I browsed on my own) of a url link someone posted in this thread. Yep a lot of places might've been served by dingy trains(as one other poster called it, lol), but it's sad to think that a lot of those places no longer served by trains(i.e. Boise, ID, Billings, MT, Knoxville, TN) are limited to intercity bus service, and limited airline flight service that mainly goes to cities that are considered hub airports(i.e. Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Dallas, etc). Anyway prepare to be very impressed looking at this national Steamliner map, especially if you're younger(like me) and this was before your time. And I had one minor question in regards to the Steamliner map I posted below, what led Amtrak to route the Coast Starlight through Klamath Falls, OR instead of Medford, OR? Which on this linked map, the Cascade Steamliner train served. Anyway:

http://www.streamlin...oss_america.pdf


Edited by dogbert617, 16 June 2017 - 05:33 AM.


#75 railiner

railiner

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,079 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, NY
  • Interests:All public transportation....land, sea, and air

Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:38 AM

There were several more streamlined routes before Amtrak that were not depicted on that map. If you really want to see something, try to buy an old Official Railway Guide from the mid- fifties, perhaps on eBay...

And for a complete guide of all Amtrak trains in the past, there is a link to the Museum of timetables on this site...
metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#76 Philly Amtrak Fan

Philly Amtrak Fan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia Area

Posted 08 July 2017 - 06:30 AM

Much has been said (well by me) about the Three Rivers getting canceled and how much it sucked/sucks for PHL and the rest of PA east of PGH and NJ. But not as obvious if the fact that NYP lost one of its two daily trains to CHI. Is it surprising at all the LSL sells out so fast and fares are so high?

 

In addition, consider the "past vs. present" here:

 

April 2004:

TR: http://www.timetable...40426&item=0071

LSL/CL (same page): http://www.timetable...40426&item=0069

 

NYP to CHI: 41 - 12:15pm to 7:45am, 49 - 2:50pm-8:55am, WAS to CHI: 29 - 5:20pm-10:19am

CHI to NYP: 48 - 7:20pm to 3:25pm, 40 - 10:30pm-8:10pm, CHI to WAS: 30 - 5:35pm-12:24pm

 

Westbound there really wasn't as much difference as there is now but eastbound you could leave CHI earlier and get back to NYP before the evening rush hour which you can't do today (you also get back to most upstate NY destinations and BOS 2-3 hrs earlier).

 

It's interesting to me that the CL and LSL basically swapped arrival times into CHI and that the eastbound CL left CHI at 5:35pm which would be worse for CHI-WAS passengers coming from the west (I'm guessing you'd have to either take the LSL and transfer in NYP to WAS or the TR and transfer in PHL to WAS) but better for passengers connecting in WAS for the SS/SM. That meant the CL times in PGH were even worse than they are now but the TR was still running to CHI so only those going to WAS had to deal with them.

 

PGH to CHI: 41 - 10:30pm-7:45am, 29 - 1:22am-10:19am

CHI to PGH: 30 - 5:35pm-4:21am, 40 - 10:30pm-9:30am

 

On the other hand, the eastbound CL got back to TOL/CLE an hour earlier (10:39pm into TOL, 12:59am into CLE). Then again, the late departure of the LSL today allows the train to get to CLE closer to daylight than back then. What's better for arriving into CLE, 12:59am or the current LSL time (5:35am)?

 

So for NYP's purpose, the TR allowed you to arrive into CHI two hours earlier than today, leave CHI two hours earlier than today, and gave you one extra hour leeway coming back from the west in case you are delayed (you'd take the TR instead of the LSL). I'm not sure that is much of a loss westbound but I think getting back to NYP earlier (and having the backup TR if you missed the LSL) was a benefit for New York passengers coming from Chicago. As for upstate NY/BOS, you arrived back home from CHI earlier than you did now but you were more likely to miss your connection from the west so I don't know whether that's good or bad.

 

Also back in 2004 they had a 3-C Thruway connecting in CLE to both the LSL and CL. http://www.timetable...40426&item=0070 which doesn't exist today (although going from Columbus-CLE-CHI or Columbus-CLE-WAS seems backwards, Columbus-CLE-NYP or Columbus-CLE-BOS would be useful).

 

In 2004-05, NYP not only lost a daily to CHI but also a daily to Florida. I'll discuss Florida in a separate post.


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 08 July 2017 - 06:39 AM.

Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#77 Philly Amtrak Fan

Philly Amtrak Fan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia Area

Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

I believe the strongest end point to end point LD markets are between the NEC and CHI and the NEC and Florida. In addition to the NEC losing a daily to CHI back in 2004 they also lost a daily to Florida when the Palmetto was truncated in SAV. Losing the TR took away some schedule flexibility in travel between NYP and CHI but a lot more schedule flexibility between NYP and Florida.

 

From April 2004:

http://www.timetable...40426&item=0073

http://www.timetable...40426&item=0074

 

Southbound:

89: NYP 7:15am, PHL 9:40am, WAS 12:20pm, JAX 1:50am, TPA 6:50am, MIA 12:20pm

91: NYP 11:30am, PHL 1:35pm, WAS 4:35pm, JAX 8:15am, ORL 11:32am, MIA 5:20pm

97: NYP 7:10pm, PHL 8:41pm, WAS 10:59pm, JAX 12:30pm, ORL 3:29pm, MIA 9:35pm

 

Northbound:

98: MIA 7:00am, ORL 12:22pm, JAX 3:46pm, WAS 5:45am, PHL 8:25am, NYP 10:12am

92: MIA 10:35am, ORL 3:56pm, JAX 7:13pm, WAS 11:04am, PHL 1:20pm. NYP 3:28pm

90: MIA 3:00pm, TPA 8:45pm, JAX 12:38am, WAS 2:45pm, PHL 5:10pm, NYP 7:31pm

 

To answer one of dogbert617's questions, the Palmetto served Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood in 2004 before they truncated it to SAV (http://www.timetable...40426&item=0076)

 

Back then there was no TPA-ORL service (the Palmetto was the TPA-MIA train) and the Palmetto didn't serve ORL so ORL still has the same two trains it does now (MIA/South Florida and JAX went from three to two).

 

I believe people at AU have said they would have liked a train from the NEC to south Florida to catch cruises. Back in 2004, that was the Palmetto, arriving in MIA slightly after noon and leaving MIA at 3pm as opposed to the later arrivals to and earlier departures from MIA in 2017. Also, you could have left NYP after the evening rush today which you can't today. The arrivals into MIA had a great variety where in 2017 the two trains arrive in MIA less than an hour apart. They also said the SM used to require 3 sets back then with the departure from NYP later.

 

It makes absolutely no sense for me to truncate the Palmetto in SAV. That's like truncating the LSL in ALB. I say you run it to Florida or get rid of it altogether. Back then the SM, SS, and Palmetto combined required 11 sets. Today, they require 10. So you've saved a grand one set and you now have to have turning facilities in Savannah which you didn't need before (and you could have gotten down to 10 sets by having the Palmetto go from TPA to ORL and terminate there (approx. 9am arrival into ORL and 6:30pm departure from ORL) so no extra sets and no new service facilities in Savannah would be required (you could still have rerouted the SS to serve TPA-MIA). You'd lose a trip to South Florida (the ideal cruise schedule train) but you'd add a train to ORL and if you rerouted the SS then two trains would serve TPA instead of one). On the other hand, you could keep the late departure out of the NEC to Florida which would help people from NYP/PHL/WAS. If they had to keep only two NYP-Florida trains, they could have just had the SS use the Palmetto schedule up to JAX and then travel its current route ORL-TPA-MIA so at least it still arrived into/left from south Florida in time for the cruises and you wouldn't have the SS and SM within an hour of each other northbound. I think most of us agree the early arrival into Florida and the later departure from the NEC were beneficial as opposed to two trains within an hour of each other.

 

So just like NEC-Chicago, losing a train not only takes a train away it also inconveniences the schedules of the trains that do remain. The two service cuts in 2004-2005 don't seem important to people outside of PHL/HAR/Lancaster but they hurt others more than you think.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#78 railiner

railiner

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,079 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, NY
  • Interests:All public transportation....land, sea, and air

Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:50 AM

Like I've said earlier....you were just born too late... ;)

 

Back in the pre-Amtrak era, you had trains between New York and Chicago, and most everywhere else that gave you almost round-the-clock choices, and on several different railroads.  

That also meant that they did not have to hold trains for very late connections, but leave right on time...late train passenger's were easily accommodated on later trains, and there was an ample pool of extra coaches and sleeper's that could be added to those trains if necessary to accommodate them...


metroblue?

okay on the blue!

#79 Bob Dylan

Bob Dylan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,009 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:Passenger Trains/Travel/Sports(except Soccer)/Government-Politics/Reading/Old Buildings
    Movies/Music/Unicorns and Ancient Aliens!

Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:28 AM

Now if we could just get rid of the Cardinal Amtrak would be Great Again!🤔😄
"There's Something About a Train! It's Magic!"-- 1970s Amtrak Ad
 
".. I ride on a Mail Train Baby, can't buy a thrill.."--I said that!
 
"..My heart is warm with the friends I make,and better friends I'll not be knowing,
Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take,No matter where its going!.." -Edna St. Vincent Millay

#80 Philly Amtrak Fan

Philly Amtrak Fan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,584 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia Area

Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:55 AM

I believe Amtrak has never had a train connecting ATL and Florida (the Floridian went through Alabama). The last train I am aware of between the cities was the Dixie Flagler. If I had to start from scratch and build a single rail line between the NEC and Florida I would run it via RGH, CLT, and ATL. It would be longer than going along the Atlantic Coast but you'd have a much larger potential audience. Was there ever a train from the NEC to Florida via ATL (maybe Seaboard Coast Line)? How about a train between CLT and Florida?


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users