Corridors for the future

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Seaboard92

Engineer
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
4,698
Location
South Carolina
I've been thinking from a lot of these threads. They all tie into something at one point or another and that's what I feel the system is going to morph into.

Initially I thought this was a bad idea but then I saw it's merits.

Pros

-increased service along key parts of the route. For instance Omaha-Iowa-Chicago or The three C route in Ohio.

-higher intermediate ridership on the LD trains especially in these corridors if the LDs are timed right so a gap in the corridor services. Which saves the state money from an additional service while benefiting service.

-reserve fleets of engines at both ends of the corridors to rescue broken down trains as needed.

-new markets get added to the national network.

-Faster run times

-inter corridor service

Cons

-service over duplicate routes would be cut such as TOL-CHI via SOB or Omaha to Chicago via Galesburg.

-timing runs to have connections to other corridors.

-increased amount if equipment.

-state support needed.

I see the LDs becoming inter corridor trains so let's say my Ohio State Limited it uses the Empire Corridor. Then the Buckeye Corridor(three C) or Philly's Broadway Limited which uses the NEC, Keystone-then the FT Wayne HSR line. So their purpose is still there.

I also see some inter corridor service being between two regional corridors. Like in an example I've been thinking about today running the Palmetto Corridor (SC GRV-CHS) and having two Piedmont slots fill gaps in the Palmetto corridor to help both states ridership. More on that tomorrow.

I would be interested in what other members have to think about this vision. I can see some good discussion about it.
 
Not meaning to sound off topic, but I wonder how much ROW there is that is under utilized or dormant that could be resurrected for this purpose? One example that comes to mind is the S line of CSX from Raleigh to Savannah, as well as north of Raleigh to Richmond, the subject of the SEHSR initiative. I would feel that CSX would not mind it one bit to see passenger traffic rerouted from its A line between Richmond and Rocky Mount. The Silver Meteor, Palmetto and Auto Train would remain, but any others could use the other route.
 
To answer that Question as it's my home line. The line is intact from Norlina, NC(VA border) to Savannah, GA. The only segment that is out is from Norlina to Collier, VA. So roughly 78 miles. But I don't see the Carolinian moving over as 79/80 has good local traffic RMT-CLT. But I do see it improving 91/92 and maybe some other trains.
 
So are you looking for a list of corridors that are perhaps currently planned or that we'd like to see? And then how likely or plausible our proposals are and how they might affect existing LD trains?

Just looking for some more guidance as to what you're looking for here.
 
The Coast Starlight is kind of what you describe. The schedule is blended into 3 corridor services to blend into the timetable rather than conflict with it. Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and Cascades have an hour or so apart slot that the CS fills in.
 
The Coast Starlight is kind of what you describe. The schedule is blended into 3 corridor services to blend into the timetable rather than conflict with it. Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and Cascades have an hour or so apart slot that the CS fills in.
I don't think the CS blends in that much with Capitol Corridor. It doesn't really hit most of the stops. I've actually seen a slightly late CS at the same station as a Capitol Corridor train.
 
Kind of which corridors you see in the works. But I'm looming more broadly too. Thinking almost Amtrak's future is more short haul with some long haul inter corridor trains. And you're right the CS is the best example of it in the system.
 
Kind of which corridors you see in the works. But I'm looming more broadly too. Thinking almost Amtrak's future is more short haul with some long haul inter corridor trains. And you're right the CS is the best example of it in the system.
I have taken the CS from Emeryville to San Jose. Low bucket it was actually much cheaper ($14) than Capitol Corridor at the time ($20). However, it looks like they reevaluated it and now it's typically the same as the Capitol Corridor price.
 
Not meaning to sound off topic, but I wonder how much ROW there is that is under utilized or dormant that could be resurrected for this purpose? One example that comes to mind is the S line of CSX from Raleigh to Savannah, as well as north of Raleigh to Richmond, the subject of the SEHSR initiative. I would feel that CSX would not mind it one bit to see passenger traffic rerouted from its A line between Richmond and Rocky Mount. The Silver Meteor, Palmetto and Auto Train would remain, but any others could use the other route.
I think there's plenty of underutilized or dormant ROW all over the place. When I'm bored I sometimes follow such lines on Google Maps /Google Earth and I'm always amazed by how far I can get.

But I guess the bigger problem is most of it doesn't go to many places where many people want to go. So I guess most of these lines are in the long term more likely to be made into hiking trails than into rail corridors.
 
So are you looking for a list of corridors that are perhaps currently planned or that we'd like to see? And then how likely or plausible our proposals are and how they might affect existing LD trains?

Just looking for some more guidance as to what you're looking for here.
I think to be at least somewhat grounded in reality, a discussion on potential corridor services and expansion should be mostly constrained to proposed and improved corridors that are in planning documents, have been or are being studied, or at least proposed by a government or actual railroad company. That is still a lot of potential corridors because there have been numerous feasibility or first level studies of this or that corridor or route, most of which are gathering dust on a shelf.

For corridors and local networks that would have a significant impact on regional travel options and LD trains, the place to start is the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative (MN DOT website) and handy overview PDF map. The plans for Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio are stalled or in limbo, but the Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri corridors will see new equipment and improvements. Although the Illinois Chicago -> Quad Cities corridor is possibly stalled. But if all of the 79, 90, 110 mph corridors in the Midwest Regional Rail plan were built with even half the proposed service frequencies, the benefits to the national LD system would be substantial.

Other proposed corridor expansions of note that have support and plans include the Southeast HSR and All Aboard Florida in the east. An extension of AAF to Jacksonville would open up options for a Silver service train to Southern Florida. In California. the proposed Coachella Valley corridor service is in the drawn out study and EIS phase, but I give it along with a LA to San Francisco Coast Daylight good odds of starting in the next 5-8 years. In Texas, Dallas to Houston real HSR service could indeed get built with unknown odds for a conventional Dallas to Shreveport LA corridor service.

In New England, expanded service over the Inland Route, extending the Vermonter to Montreal, a Boston to Montreal train, a Portland ME to NYP train are all real possibilities in the next 10 years.
 
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So are you looking for a list of corridors that are perhaps currently planned or that we'd like to see? And then how likely or plausible our proposals are and how they might affect existing LD trains?

Just looking for some more guidance as to what you're looking for here.
I think to be at least somewhat grounded in reality, a discussion on potential corridor services and expansion should be mostly constrained to proposed and improved corridors that are in planning documents, have been or are being studied, or at least proposed by a government or actual railroad company. That is still a lot of potential corridors because there have been numerous feasibility or first level studies of this or that corridor or route, most of which are gathering dust on a shell.

For corridors and local networks that would have a significant impact on regional travel options and LD trains, the place to start is the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative (MN DOT website) and handy overview PDF map. The plans for Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio are stalled or in limbo, but the Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri corridors will see new equipment and improvements. Although the Illinois Chicago -> Quad Cities corridor is possibly stalled. But if all of the 79, 90, 110 mph corridors in the Midwest Regional Rail plan were built with even half the proposed service frequencies, the benefits to the national LD system would be substantial.

Other proposed corridor expansions of note that have support and plans include the Southeast HSR and All Aboard Florida in the east. An extension of AAF to Jacksonville would open up options for a Silver service train to Southern Florida. In California. the proposed Coachella Valley corridor service is in the drawn out study and EIS phase, but I give it along with a LA to San Francisco Coast Daylight good odds of starting in the next 5-8 years. In Texas, Dallas to Houston real HSR service could indeed get built with unknown odds for a conventional Dallas to Shreveport LA corridor service.

In New England, expanded service over the Inland Route, extending the Vermonter to Montreal, a Boston to Montreal train, a Portland ME to NYP train are all real possibilities in the next 10 years.
When all the new locomotives and railcars come online, I can see a very good chance of the Coachella Valley corridor coming online. All the Surfliner and EMD F59's have to go somewhere. There is a report floating around saying once the Chargers come online, all the F59's will be sent to California. Considering Caltrans ordered a bunch of Chargers to replace the Surfliner's current EMD fleet, that leaves a lot of equip sitting around. Also, Caltrans funding this has a much higher chance than any of the other corridors in question.
 
Here in the Northeast, talked-about corridor-length routes include:

-- MBTA to the major cities in New Hampshire

-- Vermonter to Montreal

-- Ethan Allen Express to Burlington (definitely happening by 2018)

-- Ethan Allen Express onward to St. Albans and Montreal

-- Upgrades to the Empire Corridor (some done, others proposed)

-- Scranton-Hoboken (the Lackawanna Cutoff), with more speculative discussion of Scranton-Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse

-- Allentown PA service from both Philadelphia and New York directions

-- additional trains and upgrades on the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia route

The Midwest proposals have already been linked to in another comment.

If you add this all up, it makes for a huge difference in the "long-distance" potential for the Lake Shore Limited, Capitol Limited, revived Broadway Limited, Lake Cities, daily Cardinal, etc. etc.

There are also a number of Canadian upgrades proposed, on Toronto-Ottawa, Ottawa-Montreal, Toronto-Montreal, Toronto-Niagara Falls, Toronto-Stratford-London, Tornoto-Aldershot-London, Toronto-Aldershot-Niagara Falls, and London-Windsor. (No love for Sarnia.)

The Virginia and North Carolina proposals can also be found online.

----

It's worth noting that nearly all of Amtrak's so-called long-distance trains have a corridor at one end; most on both ends, and some in the middle as well.

All the trains from Chicago to the East share "South of the Lake" with the Michigan trains while exiting Chicago; the LSL enters the Empire Corridor, the CL enters MARC territory, and the Cardinal enters VRE territory and then the NEC.

The Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Palmetto, and Crescent share the NEC and VRE territory along with parts of the Piedmont corridor. Auto Train shares VRE territory.

The California Zephyr and Southwest Chief start out on Metra and the Quincy corridor; the SWC passes through RailRunner before entering Metrolink territory, while the Zephyr runs parallel to Denver RTD and FrontRunner without sharing tracks (!!) before entering the Capitol Corridor.

The Coast Starlight, of course, runs on the Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and Cascades routes.

The CONO is practically an extension of the Carbondale corridor.

The Texas Eagle is practically an extension of the St Louis-Chicago corridor. It is also on the route proposed for San Antonio-Austin commuter rail, and runs parallel to TRE in Dallas-Fort Worth (and dammit, it's supposed to be running ON TRE).

The Empire Builder starts on the Hiawatha corridor and ends on bits of the Cascades corridor.

The Sunset Limited... well, it shares a little bit of Metrolink, I guess...
 
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I see corridor expansion being the next big thing. And I see it happening probably in the next ten years. Cocella Valley(I can't spell), south of the lake, Roanoke extension, and maybe another Norfolk Train. As well as an additional Piedmont round trip. But what I was really thinking is the road to new LD service is via corridors. And if the Empire corridor speeds up and the Ohio-Chicago corridors start up. I could see the LSL majorly feeling benefits.
 
For corridors and local networks that would have a significant impact on regional travel options and LD trains, the place to start is the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative (MN DOT website) and handy overview PDF map. The plans for Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio are stalled or in limbo, but the Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri corridors will see new equipment and improvements. Although the Illinois Chicago -> Quad Cities corridor is possibly stalled. But if all of the 79, 90, 110 mph corridors in the Midwest Regional Rail plan were built with even half the proposed service frequencies, the benefits to the national LD system would be substantial.
The first page of the long running long running "next few years" thread listed the Quad Cities and Rockford service as due to begin this by this month. Alas.
 
I see corridor expansion being the next big thing. And I see it happening probably in the next ten years. Cocella Valley(I can't spell), south of the lake, Roanoke extension, and maybe another Norfolk Train. As well as an additional Piedmont round trip. But what I was really thinking is the road to new LD service is via corridors. And if the Empire corridor speeds up and the Ohio-Chicago corridors start up. I could see the LSL majorly feeling benefits.
I am personally optimistic about all of those except South of the Lake, which I am deeply cynical about the chances of happening based on geography. I think it will be like herding cats trying to round up funding. Indiana has little incentive to contribute unless they can get corridor service east to say Fort Wayne out of it, but I don't really foresee a political turnaround happening to push for that. Michigan would stand to benefit most, but I suspect that the idea of spending state money outside of the state will be unpopular. Same for Ohio if they ever even come around to trying to get more Chicago service. Really I would love to see Amtrak have a significant source of funding for national network capital improvement projects, as this would a an ideal application, having substantial benefits for trains serving a very wide area.
 
I'll list the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative corridors (and the related Ohio Hub corridors) for those who didn't follow the planning for that or look at the linked page above:

Chicago-Milwaukee-Green Bay (ongoing study of CHI-MKE improvements necessary to run 10 trains/day rather than current 7 trains/day)

Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-St. Paul (MN has been studying adding 1 train/day CHI-MKE-MSP not via Madison)

Chicago-Moline-Des Moines-Omaha (CHI-Moline *may* still be happening, unsure with IL budget issues)

Chicago-Quincy

Chicago-St. Louis-Kansas City (CHI-STL improvements ongoing)

Chicago-Champaign-Carbondale

Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati

Chicago-Fort Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh

Chicago-Fort Wayne-Toledo-Cleveland-Pittsburgh

Chicago-Kalamazoo-Detroit-Pontiac (improvements ongoing in MI)

Chicago-Kalamazoo-Port Huron

Chicago-Kalamazoo-Grand Rapids-Holland

Detroit-Toledo-Columbus

Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland-Buffalo-Toronto

And then you can add to this the following routes that have been proposed by states (and had some level funding allocated in the case of Rockford):

Chicago-Rockford-Dubuque

Minneapolis/St. Paul-Duluth

Minneapolis/St. Paul-Rochester

Detroit-Lansing-Grand Rapids

Even assuming equally supportive state governments (obviously not the case, but one election can sway things in a big way), some of these routes are much more likely to see service (or service improvements if they already exist) than others.

Some of the routes would greatly improve LD service by upgrading a long stretch of tracks used by LD trains (the seemingly never ending CHI-STL upgrades for example), others would upgrade shorter stretches of LD service, and others would provide new and improved connections and feeder service at both CHI and other locations throughout the Midwest.

EDIT: Added a few comments on which corridors are seeing upgrades or studies of upgrades now
 
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When all the new locomotives and railcars come online, I can see a very good chance of the Coachella Valley corridor coming online. All the Surfliner and EMD F59's have to go somewhere. There is a report floating around saying once the Chargers come online, all the F59's will be sent to California. Considering Caltrans ordered a bunch of Chargers to replace the Surfliner's current EMD fleet, that leaves a lot of equip sitting around. Also, Caltrans funding this has a much higher chance than any of the other corridors in question.
Locomotives will not be an issue for adding the Coachella Valley service as CA will have spares. The proposal is for 2 daily trains which will likely only need 2 trainsets. Additional bi-level coach cars will be needed as the 42 bi-levels and the 11 additional bi-levels that CA plans to order are slated for the current 3 corridor services. However the Nippon-Sharyo contract has options for up to several hundred cars, so it will be simple for Caltrans to order an additional batch of bi-levels coach and cafe cars for the Coachella Valley and Coast Daylight to be delivered sometime after late 2018 or whenever they are needed to start the service. Thanks in large part to Gov. Brown, CA will have the funds to buy the equipment and pay for track upgrades for the 2 corridors, so I think the odds are good that both will happen in the next 5+ years.
 
To answer that Question as it's my home line. The line is intact from Norlina, NC(VA border) to Savannah, GA. The only segment that is out is from Norlina to Collier, VA. So roughly 78 miles. But I don't see the Carolinian moving over as 79/80 has good local traffic RMT-CLT. But I do see it improving 91/92 and maybe some other trains.
The official VA/NC "vision thing" documents seem to leave the Carolinian as-is while running 4x daily trains via Norlina (so 5x daily RGH-WAS). The question, likely, will be the Star (I expect it to get re-routed since seriously knocking down times on said train will likely help its performance enough to offset dropping RMT).

One overall issue at the moment seems to be *ahem* supplier issues delaying lots of deliveries.
 
For corridors and local networks that would have a significant impact on regional travel options and LD trains, the place to start is the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative (MN DOT website) and handy overview PDF map. The plans for Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio are stalled or in limbo, but the Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri corridors will see new equipment and improvements. Although the Illinois Chicago -> Quad Cities corridor is possibly stalled. But if all of the 79, 90, 110 mph corridors in the Midwest Regional Rail plan were built with even half the proposed service frequencies, the benefits to the national LD system would be substantial.
The first page of the long running long running "next few years" thread listed the Quad Cities and Rockford service as due to begin this by this month. Alas.
Governor "Ruiner", as people are calling Rauner, seems to be the major impediment to the Quad Cities service.
 
Here in the Northeast, talked-about corridor-length routes include:

-- MBTA to the major cities in New Hampshire

-- Vermonter to Montreal

-- Ethan Allen Express to Burlington (definitely happening by 2018)

-- Ethan Allen Express onward to St. Albans and Montreal

-- Upgrades to the Empire Corridor (some done, others proposed)

-- Scranton-Hoboken (the Lackawanna Cutoff), with more speculative discussion of Scranton-Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse

-- Allentown PA service from both Philadelphia and New York directions

-- additional trains and upgrades on the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia route
I would also throw in:

-- New York/New Haven to Boston via Hartford-Springfield

-- Boston North - New Hampshire - Maine

-- Boston South - Cape Cod and possibly restoration of New York - Cape Cod

Parenthetically I'd note that Scranton service need not be from Hoboken. It can be from New York using catenary dual mode locomotives which are already available

It's worth noting that nearly all of Amtrak's so-called long-distance trains have a corridor at one end; most on both ends, and some in the middle as well.

All the trains from Chicago to the East share "South of the Lake" with the Michigan trains while exiting Chicago; the LSL enters the Empire Corridor, the CL enters MARC territory, and the Cardinal enters VRE territory and then the NEC.

The Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Palmetto, and Crescent share the NEC and VRE territory along with parts of the Piedmont corridor. Auto Train shares VRE territory.

The California Zephyr and Southwest Chief start out on Metra and the Quincy corridor; the SWC passes through RailRunner before entering Metrolink territory, while the Zephyr runs parallel to Denver RTD and FrontRunner without sharing tracks (!!) before entering the Capitol Corridor.

The Coast Starlight, of course, runs on the Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and Cascades routes.

The CONO is practically an extension of the Carbondale corridor.

The Texas Eagle is practically an extension of the St Louis-Chicago corridor. It is also on the route proposed for San Antonio-Austin commuter rail, and runs parallel to TRE in Dallas-Fort Worth (and dammit, it's supposed to be running ON TRE).

The Empire Builder starts on the Hiawatha corridor and ends on bits of the Cascades corridor.

The Sunset Limited... well, it shares a little bit of Metrolink, I guess...
Also note that the Silvers at their South end traverse both the SunRail and the TriRail Commuter corridors, and some day sections might traverse the FEC/AAF corridor too. Auto Train also briefly traverses the SunRail corridor (Deland (future) - DeBary - Sanford)
 
The first page of the long running long running "next few years" thread listed the Quad Cities and Rockford service as due to begin this by this month. Alas.
Governor "Ruiner", as people are calling Rauner, seems to be the major impediment to the Quad Cities service.
The projected start of Quad Cities service had already slipped to the end of 2016 before Rauner took office. Besides track work and new stations, there is not a lot of rolling stock available to support the new service. So IL DOT likely slid the start to service to end of the 2016, expecting the Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels would start entering service by then, if not on the Quad Cities corridor, but on CHI-STL, freeing up equipment for Quad Cities. The delay in the Nippon-Sharyo production obviously would have delayed that schedule, even if Rauner had not won the election.
The service to Quad Cities is being funded with mostly federal money. If Rauner and IL were to stall the new service too long or kill it, IL would have to reimburse the federal government for the expended federal funds. I think Quad Cities service will happen, although delayed to 2017, 2018. Chicago to Dubuque, which is funded with state money, is what appears to be in total limbo and completely stalled with the budget standoff in Illinois.
 
What would be the likelihood that Gov. Rauner do what Indiana has done and let Iowa Pacific contract to operate this service?
 
With the reliability of Iowa Pacific's equipment so far in Indiana, I'm not sure you would want them to operate the service.
 
With the reliability of Iowa Pacific's equipment so far in Indiana, I'm not sure you would want them to operate the service.
IIRC half of the issues there at "kickoff" were malicious compliance on the part of Amtrak (e.g. bad-ordering a car for a flaw that Amtrak would normally operate with).
 
With the reliability of Iowa Pacific's equipment so far in Indiana, I'm not sure you would want them to operate the service.
I am told that once Amtrak is done with throwing its juvenile hissy-fit for not getting what they wanted, things should become much smoother. :) We observed a similar phenomenon when Amtrak lost the VRE contract. IOW normal growing pains that one has to live through.
 
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