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750 Mile Rule: Federal vs. State/Local Amtrak Funding


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#41 jis

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 10:49 AM

The big controversy with New York State was about what it considered to be exorbitant charges for fleet renewal, when there was no sign of any such. It came to a point that NYSDOT apparently threatened to simply discontinue the entire Empire Service (which I heard about from ESPA with much consternation), which apparently caused Amtrak to blink and they then came to a settlement.



#42 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 12:16 PM



... Really short trains running either exclusively intrastate (Capitol Corridor, NYP-ALB) or barely interstate (Hiawatha) which more-or-less serve a commuter function ...  Longer stuff (NYP-NFS comes to mind) . .


 

NFS

Notifier Fire Systems

 

NFS

Normal for Swindon (UK)

 

NFS

Net Feet Squared

 

NFS

Network Frame Synchronization

 

NFS

Net Foreign Selling (finance)

 

NFS

Non-Flying Status/Not on Flying Status

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuel System

 

NFS

Need for Speed: High States (game)

 

NFS

Nashua Federal Savings and Loan

NFS

Navigational Filmstrip

 

NFS

Near-Field Scanner

 

NFS

Nitrogen Fixation Stimulation

 

NFS

Non-Fermented Sugar (brewing technology)

 

NRS

New Frontiers in Organic Syntheses

 

NFS

Network Forecasting System (Sprint)

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuels Service

 

NFS

Normalized Flow Sum (network traffic)

 

NFS

Northern Free State (South Africa)

 

 

 

They said, "Just google it. So it's got to be in here somewhere."



#43 CCC1007

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 12:33 PM

... Really short trains running either exclusively intrastate (Capitol Corridor, NYP-ALB) or barely interstate (Hiawatha) which more-or-less serve a commuter function ...  Longer stuff (NYP-NFS comes to mind) . .

 

NFS

Notifier Fire Systems

 

NFS

Normal for Swindon (UK)

 

NFS

Net Feet Squared

 

NFS

Network Frame Synchronization

 

NFS

Net Foreign Selling (finance)

 

NFS

Non-Flying Status/Not on Flying Status

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuel System

 

NFS

Need for Speed: High States (game)

 

NFS

Nashua Federal Savings and Loan

NFS

Navigational Filmstrip

 

NFS

Near-Field Scanner

 

NFS

Nitrogen Fixation Stimulation

 

NFS

Non-Fermented Sugar (brewing technology)

 

NRS

New Frontiers in Organic Syntheses

 

NFS

Network Forecasting System (Sprint)

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuels Service

 

NFS

Normalized Flow Sum (network traffic)

 

NFS

Northern Free State (South Africa)

 

 

 

They said, "Just google it. So it's got to be in here somewhere."
NFS-Niagra FallS

#44 jis

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 12:44 PM

 



... Really short trains running either exclusively intrastate (Capitol Corridor, NYP-ALB) or barely interstate (Hiawatha) which more-or-less serve a commuter function ...  Longer stuff (NYP-NFS comes to mind) . .


 

NFS

Notifier Fire Systems

 

NFS

Normal for Swindon (UK)

 

NFS

Net Feet Squared

 

NFS

Network Frame Synchronization

 

NFS

Net Foreign Selling (finance)

 

NFS

Non-Flying Status/Not on Flying Status

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuel System

 

NFS

Need for Speed: High States (game)

 

NFS

Nashua Federal Savings and Loan

NFS

Navigational Filmstrip

 

NFS

Near-Field Scanner

 

NFS

Nitrogen Fixation Stimulation

 

NFS

Non-Fermented Sugar (brewing technology)

 

NRS

New Frontiers in Organic Syntheses

 

NFS

Network Forecasting System (Sprint)

 

NFS

Nuclear Fuels Service

 

NFS

Normalized Flow Sum (network traffic)

 

NFS

Northern Free State (South Africa)

 

 

 

They said, "Just google it. So it's got to be in here somewhere."

 

Try Googling "Amtrak NFS" and see what you get. Looks like you are deliberately doing something a bit silly to make a silly point. :P I am assuming that you did it deliberately as opposed to actually believing that just plugging "NFS" into Google would get you anything reasonable.If you actually believed just plugging in "NFS" would get you something useful, I guess I misjudged you. ;)


Edited by jis, 19 September 2016 - 02:59 PM.


#45 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 02:29 PM

I think the rule on AU should be if the Amtrak code isn't obvious to most of us, it's better to say the name. How many of you know CHM without looking it up?


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Soon: Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#46 jis

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:00 PM

Frankly I don't care either way since it is so easy to look it up. I will continue to use codes whenever I have them readily available in my head, and not otherwise. :) Making such rules about what people may or may not do is silly "big brotherism" IMHO. :P



#47 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:19 PM

Sorry, I posted my response to another post here by mistake! Please delete.


Edited by Philly Amtrak Fan, 19 September 2016 - 03:28 PM.

Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Soon: Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#48 jis

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:23 PM

Sure. But so what? Net net it is an improvement to run seven days as opposed to three.



#49 neroden

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 12:48 AM

One thing to remember, however, is that the closer analogy is tollways, not freeways.

Interesting point.  I actually think it would be better if it were less like tollways and more like freeways. 

 

The federal government should designate "strategic passenger routes" and "strategic freight routes" and maintain them primarily out of general taxation, like federal highways.

Then each state government should designate additional "strategic passenger routes" and "strategic freight routes" and maintain them primarily out of general taxation, like state highways.

Then localities or private companies can own and maintain additional "non-strategic routes" if they like, like local roads.

 

Passenger and freight operators on the strategic routes should pay nothing at all to run on the routes as long as there is spare capacity.  If the total of all interested operators are asking for more slots than actually exist, then a committee can decide on the allocation between passenger and freight and between locals and expresses, while an auction system can be used if there's too much demand within one of those sub-categories.  Funds raised by the auction can be used to expand the congested corridor.  Auction prices can be done even if all the prices are negative, in which case the lowest-subsidy operator wins.  This is a bit like the British system, and it certainly has its problems.  But it's better than what we have now.


Edited by neroden, 21 September 2016 - 12:50 AM.

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#50 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 05:57 AM

I heard at another board of North Carolina's plan to extend the Carolinian to Connecticut to not have to fund the train anymore (http://www.ncleg.net...il_Division.pdf, p. 9). 

 

I'm thinking the chances of Amtrak falling for that are slim and non, especially with proposed Amtrak budget cuts. The Carolinian covers 95% of its operating costs by ticket revenue (https://www.fra.dot..../Details/L18616) so it wouldn't be that much extra a cost to the US and would be far better than any LD train other than the Auto Train. Of course then other states could try to follow suit so it would set a precedent I'm pretty sure Amtrak/Congress wouldn't want set. 


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Soon: Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#51 A Voice

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 07:47 AM

I heard at another board of North Carolina's plan to extend the Carolinian to Connecticut to not have to fund the train anymore (http://www.ncleg.net...il_Division.pdf, p. 9). 

 

I'm thinking the chances of Amtrak falling for that are slim and non, especially with proposed Amtrak budget cuts. The Carolinian covers 95% of its operating costs by ticket revenue (https://www.fra.dot..../Details/L18616) so it wouldn't be that much extra a cost to the US and would be far better than any LD train other than the Auto Train. Of course then other states could try to follow suit so it would set a precedent I'm pretty sure Amtrak/Congress wouldn't want set. 

 

It may depend somewhat on the degree to which Connecticut also pushes for the extension; A second state desiring an expansion of service is a rather different matter than North Carolina just trying to get off the hook.  But I do think the plan has a reasonable chance, partially for the reasons you mention (cost to Amtrak is marginal); The Carolinian is arguably already a long-distance train in all but technical definition.  As mentioned, beware however of what the so-called '750 mile rule' actually says rather than what you read on the forum.  

 

And yes, there is the issue of precedence.  However, there are relatively few state-supported trains which are even possible candidates (such as the Pennsylvanian, again to Chicago).  Nobody is going to buy the idea that Illinois suddenly decides the Carbondale trains really need to run all the way to Mississippi.  



#52 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:19 PM

So what happens to a break even train at fleet renewal time? State funded or not a break even train is not maintainable forever without additional funding.

I used to be with ‘it,’ but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it,’ and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary.


#53 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:55 PM

The non NEC corridor trains that have the next highest % of operating losses by ticket revenue are the Hiawatha (73%) and the Pennsylvanian (71%). The Pennsylvanian has a PM/TM of 211 while the Hiawatha service has a PM/TM of 151 so both would be reasonable to take off the states' backs while not driving up the federal Amtrak budget. After that, you get the Maple Leaf (68%, 116), Pacific Surfliner (63%, 157), Vermonter (62%, 138). They would be a harder sell (the Maple Leaf's PM/TM is lower than any LD train). If Canada chips in for the Leaf and the US's portion of the train's cost is lower then it might make more sense. For sure the Carolinian would be relatively "cheap" and the PM/TM would be higher than any non AT LD train by a big margin. 


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Soon: Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#54 A Voice

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 04:20 PM

So what happens to a break even train at fleet renewal time? State funded or not a break even train is not maintainable forever without additional funding.

 

Even back in the days of the "glidepath to self sufficiency" debacle, nobody was pretending that Amtrak (or passenger rail in general) could exist without significant capital support.  There's no free lunch; Some form of subsidy will always be required no matter what you call it (operating, capital, or whatever).  






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