Silver Service Test Period Fares

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niemi24s

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Am trying to complete a compilation of fare buckets for coach, roomettes and bedrooms for each of the 14 long distance trains between their endpoints. Amsnag has turned up the 5 sleeper buckets for all of the trains except for the Silvers during the period ending 31 Jan 2016 - the end of the no diner experiment. If anyone has any sleeper fares of any dollar amount in addition to those shown below I'd appreciate hearing from you:

91/92 Silver Star Roomette: $179, $213, $239, $______ , $______

" " " " Bedroom: $452, $579, $827, $______ , $______

97/98 Silver Meteor Roomette: $298, $391, $496, $584, $______

" " " " Bedroom: $661, $827, $1027, $1181, $______

Four months of the seven month no diner experiment have already slipped by and the missing buckets may not be put to use during the final three months, although I'll continue looking for them. It might also be interesting to compare the sleeper bucket dollar values before,during and after the no diner episode of the Silver Star, doncha think? Matter of fact, I'm surprised nobody did that months ago. I must have been asleep at the switch!

Thanks in advance for info.

P.S.: If all you have is the total ticket cost, I can extract the sleeper cost if you also provide the number of travelers and any discounts (AAA, Senior, etc.)
 
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Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. And you show it $120 less for a roomette on the Star in the lowest bucket. But dayum. When that bucket is sold out, the fare differential goes to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.

I started out believing "OMG Amtrak must keep diner service." Now I'm starting to think, "OMG, Amtrak must greatly improve the cafe food offerings." I mean really. Pay $260 for nice tables and good steaks? No, I'll swallow another sandwich and spend the money saved at a fine restaurant -- or something entirely different that I want for my money. But if I don't pay the $260 premium for meals in the diner, I'm priced out of sleeping in a roomette and have to snore in coach?

And I'm starting to think I'd quickly modify the CAF order once more and get up to 25 more sleepers instead of the Viewliner diners.
 
Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. And you show it $120 less for a roomette on the Star in the lowest bucket. But dayum. When that bucket is sold out, the fare differential goes to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.
Assuming prices are proportional to demand, my take on the large difference is that customers are placing a high premium on diner server and that Amtrak had to lower the SS prices more than you expected to balance the load.
 
Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. And you show it $120 less for a roomette on the Star in the lowest bucket. But dayum. When that bucket is sold out, the fare differential goes to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.

I started out believing "OMG Amtrak must keep diner service." Now I'm starting to think, "OMG, Amtrak must greatly improve the cafe food offerings." I mean really. Pay $260 for nice tables and good steaks? No, I'll swallow another sandwich and spend the money saved at a fine restaurant -- or something entirely different that I want for my money. But if I don't pay the $260 premium for meals in the diner, I'm priced out of sleeping in a roomette and have to snore in coach?

And I'm starting to think I'd quickly modify the CAF order once more and get up to 25 more sleepers instead of the Viewliner diners.
Two issues with that. One is that Amtrak needs at least some diners (maybe not a full 25, but certainly no less than about 20) to replace the Heritage diners (which are really not in good shape). The other is that the options expired over a year ago. Other than that...yes, if Amtrak could round up $50-60m I agree that they absolutely should grab another 25 sleepers.* If they had a robust POS system they could arguably have the diner staff know which sleeper pax were prepaid versus not (in line with VIA's sleeper/sleeper plus system on the Ocean) and put both options on the same train.

*First of all, I think Amtrak absolutely could use 100 Viewliner sleepers. I'd point out that there's at least a theoretical plan from the second PIP to have two attendants for every three sleeping cars, so staffing up shouldn't be a concern, and if worse comes to worse the Cap could be converted to single-level and the 6-7 Superliner sleepers (depends on if one needs to be kept in WAS) reallocated to the Western trains. Second, I ran through the numbers...and it is surprisingly easy to allocate lots of sleeping cars across trains. RASM might suffer slightly, but for a whole host of reasons if I'm Amtrak I would probably prefer that the eastern LD trains add another 100-150k sleeper pax at the cost of a small hit to RASM. Finally, if all else fails Amtrak could experiment with sleepers on one or two of the "awkward hour" trains in the NEC (e.g. allow late evening boarding for a sleeper on the 0315 Regional out of WAS...the engines seem to always be on for the trains there anyway, and a 2-minute power hiccup when they restart the locomotive wouldn't be the end of the world).
 
Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. ... But dayum. ... the fare differential goes [from $120] to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.
Assuming prices are proportional to demand, my take on the large difference is that customers are placing a high premium on diner server and that Amtrak had to lower the SS prices more than you expected to balance the load.
My take is that the costs of the diner are passed along in higher charges for the sleeper. After the bargain bucket is empty, then the higher the price, the more passengers who are simply priced out of sleepers. They don't find it good value for money, or they just can't afford another $260. They must snore in the coaches, or fly and sleep in a motel.
 
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Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. And you show it $120 less for a roomette on the Star in the lowest bucket. But dayum. When that bucket is sold out, the fare differential goes to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.

I started out believing "OMG Amtrak must keep diner service." Now I'm starting to think, "OMG, Amtrak must greatly improve the cafe food offerings." I mean really. Pay $260 for nice tables and good steaks? No, I'll swallow another sandwich and spend the money saved at a fine restaurant -- or something entirely different that I want for my money. But if I don't pay the $260 premium for meals in the diner, I'm priced out of sleeping in a roomette and have to snore in coach?

And I'm starting to think I'd quickly modify the CAF order once more and get up to 25 more sleepers instead of the Viewliner diners.
Two issues with that. One is that Amtrak needs at least some diners (maybe not a full 25, but certainly no less than about 20) to replace the Heritage diners (which are really not in good shape). The other is that the options expired over a year ago. Other than that...yes, if Amtrak could round up $50-60m I agree that they absolutely should grab another 25 sleepers.* If they had a robust POS system they could arguably have the diner staff know which sleeper pax were prepaid versus not (in line with VIA's sleeper/sleeper plus system on the Ocean) and put both options on the same train.

*First of all, I think Amtrak absolutely could use 100 Viewliner sleepers. .... Second, I ran through the numbers...and it is surprisingly easy to allocate lots of sleeping cars across trains.
Nah, I meant, end diner service altogether. No more diners new or used. But look to improve the offerings in the cafe to take the place of diners. So I'd ask CAF to tear out the kitchen equipment. Instead, insert roomette modules in those 25 diners under construction to make them sleepers, and bill us for the wasted kitchen equipment.

I'm really not worried about filling another 25 sleepers on top of the 25 on order -- especially if riders don't have to pay $260 in compulsory dining charges just to get to sleep in them. Keep the roomettes affordable and they will fill up.
 
Please don't draw any conclusions from the dollar figures posted above. They are nothing more than all the ones found using Amsnag for the remainder of the no diner experiment. Most importantly, the low dollar figure in each of the four rows of figures may not be the lowest of the 5 buckets. By that same token, the high dollar figure may not be the highest bucket. Knowing only 2 or 3 of the 5 buckets doesn't tell the whole picture and that's why I asked for help finding the missing ones.

This, of course, assumes the missing buckets have in fact been offered at one time (or will be offered at some future date). I've beat my keyboard to death searching the web for past (historical) bucket data without any luck. And I don't feel like conducting industrial espionage at the headquarters of Amtrak's bucket brigade. Planning for the worst (no additional bucket data) I'll be forced to make "best estimates" of the missing buckets. I'm in the process of doing that now plus trying to figure out a way to present the data so it's somewhat comprehensible.

But without additional bucket data all this will be little more than intelligent guesswork and I'm reluctant to post it - knowing full well that many will take it as factual. Anyway...

...ANY ADDITIONAL SILVER STAR OR SILVER METEOR SLEEPER COST DATA SINCE 1 JULY 2015 WILL BE WARMLY WELCOMED. :help:
 
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It would not be an experiment for Amtrak to put sleepers on overnight trains between NYP and WAS. I rode such a sleeper in the early 1990s or late 1980s. Boarded the sleeper around 11 PM in NYP. It was added to the overnight train from Boston in the wee hours, arriving WAS around 8 AM. I don't think it received enough business to justify the dedicated sca expense and switching costs in NYP
 
Thanks for showing those numbers. I'd been thinking that the premium for diner service was a little over $100. And you show it $120 less for a roomette on the Star in the lowest bucket. But dayum. When that bucket is sold out, the fare differential goes to about $170. And the next bucket it's $260 more for diner service.

I started out believing "OMG Amtrak must keep diner service." Now I'm starting to think, "OMG, Amtrak must greatly improve the cafe food offerings." I mean really. Pay $260 for nice tables and good steaks? No, I'll swallow another sandwich and spend the money saved at a fine restaurant -- or something entirely different that I want for my money. But if I don't pay the $260 premium for meals in the diner, I'm priced out of sleeping in a roomette and have to snore in coach?

And I'm starting to think I'd quickly modify the CAF order once more and get up to 25 more sleepers instead of the Viewliner diners.
Two issues with that. One is that Amtrak needs at least some diners (maybe not a full 25, but certainly no less than about 20) to replace the Heritage diners (which are really not in good shape). The other is that the options expired over a year ago. Other than that...yes, if Amtrak could round up $50-60m I agree that they absolutely should grab another 25 sleepers.* If they had a robust POS system they could arguably have the diner staff know which sleeper pax were prepaid versus not (in line with VIA's sleeper/sleeper plus system on the Ocean) and put both options on the same train.
FWIW, VIA Rail now offers only Coach and Sleeper Plus on the Ocean. Change became effective earlier this month.
 
Thanks for showing those numbers. ...
... Amtrak needs at least some diners (maybe not a full 25, but certainly no less than about 20) to replace the Heritage diners ...
FWIW, VIA Rail now offers only Coach and Sleeper Plus on the Ocean. Change became effective earlier this month.
Not sure what Sleeper Plus means. So now no diners on this LD route? Is it a seasonal change or permanent? Seems interesting, so feel free to expand with more info. Thanks.
 
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FWIW, VIA Rail now offers only Coach and Sleeper Plus on the Ocean. Change became effective earlier this month.
Not sure what Sleeper Plus means. So now no diners on this LD route? Is it a seasonal change or permanent? Seems interesting, so feel free to expand with more info. Thanks.
Quite the opposite. Previously there was Sleeper (unbundled dining car meals) and Sleeper Plus (included dining car meals). They decided to do the opposite of Amtrak and eliminate the unbundled option.
 
FWIW, VIA Rail now offers only Coach and Sleeper Plus on the Ocean.
Not sure what Sleeper Plus means. So now no diners on this LD route? Is it a seasonal change or permanent?
Quite the opposite. Previously there was Sleeper (unbundled dining car meals) and Sleeper Plus (included dining car meals). They decided to do the opposite of Amtrak and eliminate the unbundled option.
The opposite of what I was wanting. Riders are forced to choose: pay for the dining car or snore in coach.

Because I was thinking of bargain roomettes and packing a brown bag with fruit, cheese, and a good bread to save big on meals.

Now I'm wondering if uninvited guests eating crumbs in the roomettes could be a costly, annoying problem. (Mentions on this site of frequent fumigating of the diners. Uh oh. Not to also fumigate sleepers.)
 
With no other sleeper fares found on Amsnag or reported here, I made the decision to post the fares that had been found based on the assumption that no other fares had been or will be offered. While there may have been a lower fare or two assigned by Amtrak, if that fare was never offered to the customer it's the same as if that fare had never existed. The green and red borders indicate fares that either decreased or increased from their normal (Norm.) values during the "no diner on the Star" test (Test) period which began 1 July 2015.

StarMeteorCompareb.jpg

This picture of the only fares presently known to have been offered just before and so far during the "No Diner Experiment" on the Silver Star seems to indicate that:

• customers may have been attracted to the Silver Star by the decrease in its sleeper fares and...

• customers may have been simultaneously discouraged from riding the Silver Meteor by the increase in its sleeper fares!

Note with caution that I have refrained from using the "B-Word" here. This chart will be re-accomplished should any additional fares show up on Amsnag or be reported here. Once again, please report any additional sleeper fares you know of.
 
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Am trying to complete a compilation of fare buckets for coach, roomettes and bedrooms for each of the 14 long distance trains between their endpoints. Amsnag has turned up the 5 sleeper buckets for all of the trains except for the Silvers during the period ending 31 Jan 2016 - the end of the no diner experiment. If anyone has any sleeper fares of any dollar amount in addition to those shown below I'd appreciate hearing from you:

91/92 Silver Star Roomette: $179, $213, $239, $______ , $______

" " " " Bedroom: $452, $579, $827, $______ , $______

97/98 Silver Meteor Roomette: $298, $391, $496, $584, $______

" " " " Bedroom: $661, $827, $1027, $1181, $______

Four months of the seven month no diner experiment have already slipped by and the missing buckets may not be put to use during the final three months, although I'll continue looking for them. It might also be interesting to compare the sleeper bucket dollar values before,during and after the no diner episode of the Silver Star, doncha think? Matter of fact, I'm surprised nobody did that months ago. I must have been asleep at the switch!

Thanks in advance for info.

P.S.: If all you have is the total ticket cost, I can extract the sleeper cost if you also provide the number of travelers and any discounts (AAA, Senior, etc.)
Interesting that you can find four buckets for the Meteor, but only three for the Star. That would confirm my offhand observations that demand is lower on the Star even with rock bottom pricing of roomettes.
 
With no other sleeper fares found on Amsnag or reported here, I made the decision to post the fares that had been found based on the assumption that no other fares had been or will be offered. While there may have been a lower fare or two assigned by Amtrak, if that fare was never offered to the customer it's the same as if that fare had never existed. The green and red borders indicate fares that either decreased or increased from their normal (Norm.) values during the "no diner on the Star" test (Test) period which began 1 July 2015.

StarMeteorCompareb.jpg

This picture of the only fares presently known to have been offered just before and so far during the "No Diner Experiment" on the Silver Star seems to indicate that:

customers may have been attracted to the Silver Star by the decrease in its sleeper fares and...

customers may have been simultaneously discouraged from riding the Silver Meteor by the increase in its sleeper fares!

Note with caution that I have refrained from using the "B-Word" here. This chart will be re-accomplished should any additional fares show up on Amsnag or be reported here. Once again, please report any additional sleeper fares you know of.
Wow! I did not notice that they had raised prices on the Meteor like that! What could that mean? Were they planning on raising them anyway? Or is this "experiment" rigged to get people onto the Star? Thanks neimi24ss, this provides lots of food for thought.
 
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With no other sleeper fares found on Amsnag or reported here, I made the decision to post the fares that had been found based on the assumption that no other fares had been or will be offered. While there may have been a lower fare or two assigned by Amtrak, if that fare was never offered to the customer it's the same as if that fare had never existed. The green and red borders indicate fares that either decreased or increased from their normal (Norm.) values during the "no diner on the Star" test (Test) period which began 1 July 2015.

attachicon.gif
StarMeteorCompareb.jpg

This picture of the only fares presently known to have been offered just before and so far during the "No Diner Experiment" on the Silver Star seems to indicate that:

• customers may have been attracted to the Silver Star by the decrease in its sleeper fares and...

• customers may have been simultaneously discouraged from riding the Silver Meteor by the increase in its sleeper fares!

Note with caution that I have refrained from using the "B-Word" here. This chart will be re-accomplished should any additional fares show up on Amsnag or be reported here. Once again, please report any additional sleeper fares you know of.
Interesting. Very interesting, indeed.
 
1 Feb 2016 through late September 2016. I found no increases at the start of the third fiscal quarter (1 April 2016). I imagine your next question will be what do those fares following the no diner experiment have to do with the fares prior to it? I think there's a 1:1 correlation because the experiment, as I understand it, was to be just a 7 month period of fare changes - not a prelude to fare increases following the experiment.
 
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. . . it would be nice to have someone that has travelled the route before the changes corroborate the bucket prices.
Now that I think about this a bit, someone that had traveled both of these routes prior to the start of the experiment period (1 July 2015) would be unlikely to have knowledge of more than one of the buckets. To a lawyer, knowledge of the dollar values of all five buckets for each type of sleeper on both trains would be required - and that's twenty separate (but not necessarily different) dollar values.

Only hope for that would be someone with a library of saved Amsnag searches covering two or three months before the test. Or an Amtrak insider who knows how to make a discrete inquiry. Fat chance of any of that.

P.S.: For giggles, just sent Amtrak an eMail asking if the pre- and post-test sleeper fares were the same. I'm not holding my breath, however. :p
 
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I would have thought somebody would have piped up with some fare info by now. But, it's only been two days.
 
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