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New Siemens Charger locomotive.


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#21 Andrew

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:03 AM

It would be interesting to see if Metro North uses a Charger Dual Mode in the future, and the Long Island Rail Road chooses a catenary Dual Mode.



#22 afigg

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:37 AM

Catenary dual-modes would make a lot more sense than third-rail dual-modes. Any future longer-distance electrification will use catenary. Third-rail dual-modes are kind of dumb, so let's hope Siemens wins a bit for a catenary dual-mode.

I don't see what is "dumb" about a locomotive that has to work with the legacy systems in the NYC region. As already posted, LIRR and MNRR are not about to ditch their 3rd rail systems. 

 

For the record, the specifications for the Dual Mode diesel locomotive with a 3rd rail pickup call for the following requirements

  • Sustained 110 mph capability in diesel-electric mode and sustained 80 mph in electric mode (Nominal 700 VDC 3rd rail).
  • For operation in corridor service (routes up to 600 miles in length) without refueling or other servicing.
  • Interoperable with existing single level or multi-level vehicles in mixed consist to be specified by the purchaser and the following Amtrak vehicles: Amfleet, Viewliner, Long Distance Single-Level Car, Horizon etc., including existing motive power of purchaser.
  • Montreal: The locomotive must meet the requirements which will allow the operation of the locomotive in diesel mode at Montreal Central Station. This operation mode means the diesel engine has low RPMs (thus creating less emissions and noise) when generating only HEP for the train.

 

Standardization

  •  Dual mode (Nominal 700 VDC 3rd rail electric and diesel-electric) locomotive shall provide for standardization of components with those used in the PRIIA Diesel-Electric Passenger Locomotive (Specification 305-005) to the maximum extent practicable;
  •  Consider providing a common platform for potential future locomotives using straight diesel-electric propulsion and electric power provided by an overhead catenary system. Any future dual mode diesel-electric/AC catenary locomotive shall provide for standardization of components with those used in the PRIIA Diesel-Electric Passenger Locomotive (Specification 305-005) and any PRIIA Dual Mode (DC 3rd Rail) Passenger Locomotive Specification developed from this Requirements Document, to the maximum extent practicable.
  •  The locomotive shall have the ability to draw power from the under-running 3rd rail when in Metro-North Railroad territory and from the over-running 3rd rail when in Amtrak or Long Island Rail Road territory.

So, how about the ultimate Swiss army knife eastern corridor service locomotive: 110 mph in diesel mode, 125 mph from 25/60 HZ overhead catenary, and 80 mph on under and over-running 3rd rail shoes? And do all this without being a massively heavy locomotive nor overly expensive to operate.



#23 neroden

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 10:49 AM

For the record, the specifications for the Dual Mode diesel locomotive with a 3rd rail pickup call for the following requirements

  • Sustained 110 mph capability in diesel-electric mode and sustained 80 mph in electric mode (Nominal 700 VDC 3rd rail).

Gross. Should do 125 in electric mode, but will never happen with a third rail shoe... sounds like Metro-North is writing the specs, based on keeping its stupid, unique-in-world, energy-wasting, speed-limit-creating electrification.
 

So, how about the ultimate Swiss army knife eastern corridor service locomotive: 110 mph in diesel mode, 125 mph from 25/60 HZ overhead catenary, and 80 mph on under and over-running 3rd rail shoes? And do all this without being a massively heavy locomotive nor overly expensive to operate.

Great idea, but that's not being specced, it's just being suggested at something to "consider", while running off the legacy systems is being specced, so you know what you'll get. :-( I repeat, this is gross and backward-looking "planning".

Edited by neroden, 29 July 2015 - 10:52 AM.

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#24 jis

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:29 PM

Where exactly is it going to run at 125 with third rail power?

Instead it should be able to run at 125mph under diesel power.

Edited by jis, 29 July 2015 - 07:30 PM.


#25 MattW

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:57 PM

Has anything ever even run at 125mph on [ground] third-rail anywhere in the world?


Forum's official broken record about expanded Georgia passenger service!

#26 jis

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 11:05 PM

AFAIK 100mph is the highest as in Eurostar in sections between Waterloo and Ashford, and it brought the power supply system to its knees with the amperage it drew from the third rail.

#27 PRR 60

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 06:53 AM

AFAIK 100mph is the highest as in Eurostar in sections between Waterloo and Ashford, and it brought the power supply system to its knees with the amperage it drew from the third rail.

 

Does Eurostar still operate any service out of Waterloo?  I thought all Eurostar was moved to St. Pancras International and is now under catenary all the way.



#28 jis

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 07:17 AM

Eurostar does not operate to Waterloo anymore. The third rail equipment has been removed from all Eurostar sets long back.

 

But when they ran under third rail power, they did run at 100mph. Indeed I had traveled on them and timed them back then at such speed.between Tonbridge and Ashford International.


Edited by jis, 30 July 2015 - 09:09 AM.


#29 PVD

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 08:23 AM

Design rating for the M7 was 100 mph, but expected service max is 80.  



#30 cirdan

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 03:27 AM

AFAIK 100mph is the highest as in Eurostar in sections between Waterloo and Ashford, and it brought the power supply system to its knees with the amperage it drew from the third rail.


Speeds in excess of 100mph have also been run on the Waterloo to Bournemouth line. I think they did 110mph on a trial once.

Third rail is actually inherently more stable at speed than catenary as the third rail has less propensity to deform or propagate waves.

The problem though is that the third rail cannot be coninuous (due to switches etc). Whereas this is not a problem from the feed point of view (you just have a live rail on the other side) it is a dynamic problem. In order to maintain sound electrical contact, the collection shoe on the train is spring loaded and presses downwards. When there is no rail, the shoe is thus actially lower than where the rail surface would otherwise be. So every time a section of conductor rail starts there is a mighty bang as the shoe strikes the rail. To cushion the bang, the first section of rail is arranged on a slope so contact and pressure are built up gradually. But the higehr the speed, the longer this transitional ramp needs to be.

Edited by cirdan, 31 July 2015 - 03:30 AM.


#31 PVD

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:30 AM

Or ramp the transition from the bottom for the MNRR contrarians.



#32 jis

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 04:50 PM

Could you please parse that pithy statement to help the less intelligent amongst us understand what you are trying to say ? ;)

#33 Ryan

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 05:54 PM

My guess is under running vs over running third rail, but I can't keep track of who uses what.
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#34 PVD

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 06:10 PM

Being able to live with it, and wanting to are entirely different stories with the LIRR.  I'm pretty sure there is catenary coming out of Penn to the West Side track, but not as far as the third rail extends. If they extended it they could also use a catenary dual mode, but what makes sense to us doesn't always cut it for a bunch of reasons. Some good, some bad. Conceptually, a subfleet of Amtrak catenary dual modes would be able to serve both Empire Service, and South of DC but current offerings (ALP45-DP) are not fast enough for future 110 mph diesel running on Empire Service, and they are questionable for 125 mph electric on the corridor.



#35 Andrew

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:13 PM

Is it true that Metro North plans to operate future dual-mode locomotives in electric mode all of the way as far north as Croton-Harmon?



#36 Ryan

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 04:07 PM

Perhaps.
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#37 Dutchrailnut

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 04:49 PM

answer is no, the arching of a single unit at speeds over 60 mph would damage locomotive.



#38 neroden

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 02:58 PM

Rrrrrrgh.  We all know the Empire Corridor needs to be electrified with overhead eventually.  If we lived in a real country with a functioning government, they'd be working on long term planning for it.

 

But honestly, we don't.  The dysfunction in our country's governments has been reaching crippling levels.


Edited by neroden, 28 October 2015 - 03:00 PM.

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#39 jis

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 03:14 PM

answer is no, the arching of a single unit at speeds over 60 mph would damage locomotive.

That is exactly what I was thinking. They will run on third rail only in tunnels and will fire up their prime mover as soon they are out in daylight.

 

And BTW, I have no idea why this is being discussed in a thread about Chargers, since they are  currently not dual mode, and there is no certainty at all that the final dual mode order from anyone will be based on the Charger, since there are several possible candidates around.


Edited by jis, 28 October 2015 - 03:15 PM.


#40 Andrew

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:22 PM

Bombardier ALP-45DP will probably be a candidate.






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