News on daily Sunset (incl older east of NOL discussion)

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Aaron

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Of course this starts out as "I heard from someone who heard from someone that...", so don't get too excited just yet. However, Jim Loomis writes on his blog that he had a conversation with an Amtrak higher up regarding the Sunset Limited. Among other things, the Amtrak dude said the SL East study was "serious" (whatever that means). The bigger news is that the Amtrak person said the Sunset would go daily at the end of next year.

This is only slightly different from the usual "I heard from someone on the train who said..." stories. But Jim Loomis as a long time train writer and NARP board member should be at least slightly more reliable than the average internet poster. There's no telling about the reliability of his source, though, and whether that person is truly in the know or only repeating what they've heard idly discussed.

I think the Sunset going daily eventually is a foregone conclusion (unless it gets cut entirely), but I'm excited to see that it might happen relatively soon. I think it's very possible that this might be coming at least within the next few years based on what we know, or at least think we know.

Here's what we "know":

  • Amtrak and UP negotiated for a daily Sunset before, and supposedly had a intention to go daily in 2010, but one of the parties (reported to be Amtrak) somehow snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by screwing up an almost done deal at the last minute.
  • UP asked for a ton of money (reported to be $750 million) for improvements to be able to accommodate a daily Sunset. This is widely reported to have been exaggerated high as UP's way of shutting down those previous negotiations after they fell apart.
  • UP was so peeved by Amtrak in those last negotiations that when they last changed the scheduling of the Sunset in 2012, they made Amtrak promise to not even ask about a daily Sunset for two years as a condition of making that schedule change.
  • UP has in the last few years almost finished double-tracking the Sunset route between Los Angeles and El Paso with their own money, greatly adding to the capacity of this line.
  • A daily Sunset would initially increase the financial loss of this train in absolute total dollar amounts, but would likely decrease the loss per passenger mile. With time and more ridership increase, it's probable that the total loss could be a net decrease as well.
  • Amtrak's rolling stock is pretty much all in use, with not a lot of extra equipment anywhere.
  • Amtrak is continually under attack from some of the purse-string-holders in Congress, some of whom have targeted the Sunset specifically.
So, adding up all this "facts", I don't know if that means we're more or less likely to have a daily Sunset now, but I think the obstacles are more easily overcome. First, with regards to UP capacity, UP can't justify such a high cost for capacity improvement when the line's double-tracked now. Second, it's been five years since the last round, so there's a new set of people at the bargaining table, and UP has a new CEO. If the last round was a disastrous as believed, then they've got no where to go but up.

With regards to equipment, the PIP plan to consolidate the Sunset and the Texas Eagle into a daily Chicago-LA "Texas Sunset Eagle LImited" actually used fewer cars overall than what they were using at the time, although I don't know how it compares to utilization on the current schedule.

With regards to Congress, an almost assure guarantee in increase of the subsidy is tough to sell, and you have to rely on them seeing the business case for daily service and the eventual increase in revenue. That's hard. That's where I think the plan of combining the Sunset and the Eagle works, because they can give the train a new name and tell the congress-critters "Look, we're getting rid of those old money losers the Sunset Limited and the Texas Eagle. Of course, we'll provide some replacement service for some of those affected with this replacement train, the Desert Prairie Frontier Scirocco" (or whatever). I'm not quite naïve enough to assume Congress would fall for that, but I wonder sometimes...
 
For me the problem with the Sunset Limited goes much deeper than lack of daily service. The 2:45AM Westbound departure and 4:50AM Eastbound arrival are impractical for me. Same thing for the 4:30AM arrivals into LAX and loss of connecting service into Phoenix. I used to ride the SL several times each year but the last schedule change put an end to that. Supposedly the ridership was going to substantially improve after the last schedule change. Did that ever actually happen?

In any case we can assume that UP will be charging something for any future schedule changes. Whether it's a hundred million or half a billion we know it's not going to be free. We also know that UP is in no way obligated to allow any changes at all. So far as I can tell UP holds all the cards here and unless Amtrak is willing and able to spend an obscene amount of money UP has rather little incentive to cooperate.

We also know that UP has bankrolled multiple anti-Amtrak politicians and may feel that it's far more useful to simply ignore whatever Amtrak may offer for a schedule change today in order to maintain the detrimental status quo while focusing on funding and promoting a more hostile political environment moving forward.

If UP plays their cards right they may eventually be able to rid themselves of Amtrak's interference altogether. Even with an extremely pro-Amtrak Executive Branch Amtrak continues to struggle to maintain what's left, let alone expand beyond it. If the next president brings a staunchly anti-Amtrak agenda with them we could end up with substantial changes in the near future.

That's my take on it anyway.
 
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In other news from "The Onion", the Republicans in Congreas passed a Resolution calling President Obama the Best President since FDR, the Yankees extended A- Roids Contract 10 years for $300 Million and Amtrak announced the resumption of service for Long Distance Trains the Broadway Limited, the Desert Wind, the Pioneer and the Olympia Hiawatha.

April Fool in June!!!
 
I don't know if the UPRR CEO even gets involved in this sort of decision. I would guess its handled lower down. After all, its just one train and thus a blip on the bigger picture of UP's operations control or balance sheet.

I wouldn't be surprised if some closed door negotiations are leading to deals which are not fully explained to the public. Maybe Amtrak could get a daily service in return for doing UPRR some other favor. maybe something on the Illinois Corridor (where UPRR are basically getting their line upgraded on Amtrak's dollar) or maybe cutting UPRR some slack on punctuality statistics.

In my view, a bigger barrier to a daily service in the timeframe you suggest is that Amtrak simly doesn't have the spare equipment any more and can't get it in the timeframe required. I don't know how many wrecked cars are sitting around in Beech Grove that could be returned to service, maybe with further TIGER money, but in the timeframe required, I don't see it happening.
 
Pretty sure the plan was to use one less trainset with the current timetable, however the turn around was too tight. So a daily Sunset and daily Texas Eagle has the equipment assigned. It just moves more often.

Does need a fact check, and some boots on the ground to train spot. So the equipment issue maybe not be a issue for this route.
 
Supposedly the ridership was going to substantially improve after the last schedule change. Did that ever actually happen?
On the surface it appears so. For fiscal year 2013 (the first complete fiscal year under the new schedule), the ridership on the SL increased 1.7% compared to .4% for the long distance trains as a whole. Revenue was up 6% compared to 1.9% for the LD trains as a whole (probably due to more sleepers being sold since the overnight segments were moved to be between bigger population centers?)

For FY14, ridership was up 2.1% and revenue was up 2.6% compared to ridership decrease of -4.5% and revenue decrease of -2.9% for the LD trains as a whole.

Now, if you look at the five years before the schedule change, the Sunset was on a steep upward trajectory anyway. In fact, the Sunset Limited as a whole is the most improved LD train in the system in terms of ridership numbers for the period 2007-2013. The Sunset went from 62,200 riders in 2007 to 100,761 in 2013, an increase of 62%. The Texas Eagle had a similar increase of 55.3% That compares to a 24.5% increase for the LD trains as a whole for that time period. You could easily argue that that's just the rebound mode for the Sunset, and it's just ridership returning after the giant meltdown in timekeeping earlier that decade.

That may be. But, if you really dig into the statistics of the ridership before and after the schedule change, there's a definite move in ridership away from the places with terrible scheduling (like San Antonio which has a slight net decrease in passengers boarding from that station) towards the places with better scheduling (like Tucson which has a modest net increase in passengers). Those changes are much more dramatic at unstaffed stations, by the way. So, the schedule change is most definitely having an effect on who is riding and where they're boarding or departing. It's just somewhat debatable whether there's an effect on ridership and whether that effect is equal to or greater than what ridership gains would have happened anyway had the schedule been left alone.
 
I would love to see the SL extended east beyond NOLA. That would open up some of the other really neat Gulf destinations!

But, I realize that it is an uphill battle to add service these days.

If I was retired, it sure would be great to take two weeks to ride the train to WDW and back, while still spending my usual seven days "in the world".
 
In my view, a bigger barrier to a daily service in the timeframe you suggest is that Amtrak simly doesn't have the spare equipment any more and can't get it in the timeframe required.
New bilevels arrive in 2016 for the Midwest and Califonia which should free up a bunch of Superliner coaches and probably a few cafes. "End of next year" may be a very deliberate timing choice. All the Sunset/Eagle proposals I've read have New Orleans-San Antonio as all-coach, which cuts the sleeper/diner usage.
 
We also know that UP is in no way obligated to allow any changes at all.
We actually don't know that. Last I checked the STB can actually force a railroad to host a service.
Fair enough. Common carrier status does come with some theoretical obligations. I probably should have said that I cannot envision a situation whereby Union Pacific is forced to provide Amtrak with daily scheduling for the Sunset Limited at a price substantially below astronomical.
 
... a bigger barrier ... Amtrak simply doesn't have the spare equipment any more and can't get it in the timeframe required.
New bilevels arrive in 2016 for the Midwest and Califonia which should free up a bunch of Superliner coaches and probably a few cafes. "End of next year" may be a very deliberate timing choice. All the Sunset/Eagle proposals I've read have New Orleans-San Antonio as all-coach, which cuts the sleeper/diner usage.
Would there be thru coaches with switching around the cars in San Antonio? Or would all the passengers get off, cross the platform, and get on the train going toward L.A.? Or a mix?

In any case, I guess, this New Orleans-San Antonio shuttle could be a good place to use a handful of Horizon cars when they cascade off the Midwestern corridors and then get a rehab/upgrade for LD service. No winter weather problems on this stretch of track. LOL. So if they won't use bi-level sleepers here, Amtrak could have enuff cars by the end of 2016.

--------------------

btw If I'm on a sleeper coming down on the Crescent, and in New Orleans I have to transfer to a coach-class only shuttle train, then in San Antonio I need to get a new sleeper compartment on a different train, well, I'm gonna be a rare such bird!
 
... a bigger barrier ... Amtrak simply doesn't have the spare equipment any more and can't get it in the timeframe required.
New bilevels arrive in 2016 for the Midwest and Califonia which should free up a bunch of Superliner coaches and probably a few cafes. "End of next year" may be a very deliberate timing choice. All the Sunset/Eagle proposals I've read have New Orleans-San Antonio as all-coach, which cuts the sleeper/diner usage.
Would there be thru coaches with switching around the cars in San Antonio? Or would all the passengers get off, cross the platform, and get on the train going toward L.A.? Or a mix?

In any case, I guess, this New Orleans-San Antonio shuttle could be a good place to use a handful of Horizon cars when they cascade off the Midwestern corridors and then get a rehab/upgrade for LD service. No winter weather problems on this stretch of track. LOL. So if they won't use bi-level sleepers here, Amtrak could have enuff cars by the end of 2016.

--------------------

btw If I'm on a sleeper coming down on the Crescent, and in New Orleans I have to transfer to a coach-class only shuttle train, then in San Antonio I need to get a new sleeper compartment on a different train, well, I'm gonna be a rare such bird!
Exactly. Looks like I'll be driving to San Antone or New Orleans from Houston going forward if this develops. :unsure:
 
Ugh. I'd rather have multiple daily LA-Indio. A daily Sunset is just going to increase losses even more without providing a substantially better train service.
 
Ugh. I'd rather have multiple daily LA-Indio. A daily Sunset is just going to increase losses even more without providing a substantially better train service.
Did you read about how the losses on Via's Ocean actually INCREASED when they dropped from 6 days a week to 3 days a week? Sure, their costs dropped, but their revenue dropped more. Do you have some substantiation on your point that losses would increase?
 
Ugh. I'd rather have multiple daily LA-Indio. A daily Sunset is just going to increase losses even more without providing a substantially better train service.
Not exactly. The PRIAA study of the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle estimated more than 100,000 additional passengers a year.

Equipment and crew can be used much more effectively. Currently, the crews from L.A. get hotel rooms and "held away pay". They can't go to work on the next day when there's no train the next day.

Consider the straightforward advertising and marketing improvements. If you get assigned to promote the Sunset, just shoot yourself. Nobody can sell seats on a train that runs Tues-Thurs-Sat, or is that Tues-Thurs-Sun, oh wait, is that the other direction?

Bus and limo services that work the Phoenix Airport-hotels runs said they would schedule trips to the train out at Maricopa -- if it were daily. But three days a week, what are they supposed to do with their drivers and empty vehicles on the other four days?

With daily service, we'd see loss per passenger, loss after avoidable costs, and similar metrics improve very nicely, bringing the Sunset's performance more in line with the other transcontinentals.

Total losses, however, could increase. Here's the sample math: A train currently runs three days a week, and loses $100 a day for every run. Total weekly loss, 3 x $100 = $300. The train's schedule is changed to daily, and loss per day is cut in half! So it loses only $50 a day. Total weekly loss, 7 x $50 = $350.

The 2010 PRIIA study foresaw a need for roughly $3 million a year to support the daily service. (Losses on the Sunset/Capitol of about $4.5 million were to be offset by $1.5 million improvement on the Coast Starlight, due to 15,000 more riders making connections that have been made in part during the interim.)

Ridership should be better than when the PRIIA estimates were made, because of rapid population growth in cities on (or very near) the Sunset/Eagle's route: Dallas, Ft Worth, Austin, (Houston), San Antonio, El Paso, Tucson, (greater Phoenix), L.A.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/970/304/PRIIA-210-SunsetLtd-TexasEagle-PIP,0.pdf

---------------------------

Like you, I'd be happy to see several trains a day down the Coachella Valley. But that would be a state project. Amtrak could do nothing about it yea or nay, so the proposals do not compete.
 
Fair enough. Common carrier status does come with some theoretical obligations. I probably should have said that I cannot envision a situation whereby Union Pacific is forced to provide Amtrak with daily scheduling for the Sunset Limited at a price substantially below astronomical.
Fair enough. :) The last time Amtrak really strong-armed a carrier was Vermont and the B&M.

btw If I'm on a sleeper coming down on the Crescent, and in New Orleans I have to transfer to a coach-class only shuttle train, then in San Antonio I need to get a new sleeper compartment on a different train, well, I'm gonna be a rare such bird!
So, look at it this way. What Amtrak loses is:

-- people who won't change trains in San Antonio

-- people who would ride sleeper, but not coach, from San Antonio to Houston/New Orleans

What Amtrak gains is:

-- people who need to ride on the other four days of the week when the current train doesn't run

The latter outweighs the former by a *lot*. The presence of *daily* service from New Orleans to Houston to San Antonio is going to attract a lot of people who wouldn't be attracted by the existing service under any circumstances. You would expect ridership to increase by roughly 133% (multiply by a factor or 2.33).

Suppose Amtrak loses all the sleeper passengers from Houston; this is 3770 per year. Now suppose that overall coach ridership from Houston increases by 133%; this is 22966 per year. Similar numbers apply at New Orleans and the other Louisiana stations.

Yes, the sleeper passengers pay a lot more, but

(a) Amtrak probably won't lose all of them; some will be willing to take coach to San Antonio and change trains.

(b) The increased sleeper ridership from daily sleeper service west of San Antonio will probably more than make up for the loss in Houston/Louisiana sleeper service.

A daily Sunset is just going to increase losses even more without providing a substantially better train service.
Well, last time I ran the spreadsheet estimating this, using the very rough rule of thumb of 7/3 times the revenues and 1.5 times the costs (this is how many more trainsets would need to operate), I found that a daily Sunset would DECREASE direct losses by about $2.3 million/year. That's $2.3 million in the *black*, a "daily service bonus" if you will.

It might be worse than that due to the loss of sleeper revenue on part of the route or due to increased wear-and-tear; but it might be better than that due to eliminating "held away pay" and other economies of scale, or due to network effects from more passengers making connections. Basically, however, it still looks to me like a break-even or positive change. It would certainly spread the same fixed overhead around more services.

And a daily service is *substantially* better than a three-a-week service. Ask me why I've never taken the Cardinal, despite (a) not flying, (b) trying to go to a convention in Indianapolis which is physically attached to the train station, and © having business in New York shortly before. The answer is that the Cardinal runs on the *wrong days of the week*. Sub-daily service is *terrible*. Daily service is minimal.

FWIW my estimates give a "daily service bonus" of about $6.3 million / year to the Cardinal, substantially better than for the Sunset, and enough to bring it into profit on a direct-costs basis.
 
Bus and limo services that work the Phoenix Airport-hotels runs said they would schedule trips to the train out at Maricopa -- if it were daily. But three days a week, what are they supposed to do with their drivers and empty vehicles on the other four days?
This is a point I hadn't thought about which would make a big difference.
 
Allow me to play the devil's advocate on this one.

How about:

- Extend the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles on a 7/7 basis.

- Drop the Sunset as a contiguous train.

- Extend the Crescent from New Orleans onward to Houston and from there either to San Antonio or to Dallas.

Advantages

- No loss of sleepers between Texas and New Orleans.

- More passengers between Gulf Coast and NEC than Texas and California (how many Californians vacation in Texas or vice versa?, versus how many NECians vacation on Gulf Coast)
 
Allow me to play the devil's advocate on this one.

How about:

- Extend the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles on a 7/7 basis.

- Drop the Sunset as a contiguous train.

- Extend the Crescent from New Orleans onward to Houston and from there either to San Antonio or to Dallas.

Advantages

- No loss of sleepers between Texas and New Orleans.

- More passengers between Gulf Coast and NEC than Texas and California (how many Californians vacation in Texas or vice versa?, versus how many NECians vacation on Gulf Coast)
I love it, but

Disadvantages:

- You need two more trainsets for the Crescent. That's 2 diners, 2 baggage cars, and 4 sleepers -- which you would need to add to the Viewliner order. And 2 lounges -- which Amtrak can probably scrounge up. It's also 8 single-level long-distance coaches. Which are getting to be in very short supply. It would require ordering a bunch of single-level cars, in any case. Expensive!

- The Crescent increases its number of host railroads. Currently it's Amtrak / CSX over Long Bridge / NS / Amtrak. It would add the whole crazy mess getting out of New Orleans (Amtrak / KCS / NOPB / BNSF), plus BNSF and UP. This could cause delays, and that's an understatement.
 
What I could see happening is this. The Texas Eagle goes CHI-LAX daily. Then a daily daytime coach train maybe with business class between SAS and NOL. But one or both states would have to cover the cost. Without that. It would probably have to be extended to somewhere in Florida. Of which case in thinking Horizon cars and new Viewliners
 
- Extend the Crescent from New Orleans onward to Houston and from there either to San Antonio or to Dallas.
The longer a train's route gets, the more likely it will not be on-time because something will go wrong somewhere. Timekeeping on the Crescent is so-so already.
 
Several years ago Amtrak had a proposal to run LAX to SAS, then split the train into two separate ones. One continuing on to NOL, the other assuming the Texas Eagle route. Through passengers had no need to change cars or wake up. If same schedule kept, would allow me to catch Astros afternoon games, arrive around 11am, game at 1, depart at 6:30 ish.
 
There have been plenty of proposals kicked about here. Honestly, if they could gear a NOL-SAS train as a daily day train it would probably pick up a lot of casual ridership (look at the Silvers within Florida) since NOL-HOS, NOL-SAS, and HOS-SAS are all city pairs that have room to grow (all three are good-sized cities and Amtrak is better than the dog if you don't want to drive and can't fly or vice-versa).

Further west...well, things are always going to be a bit touchy between SAS/ELP and Tucson. Tucson/Maricopa offers a lot of traffic to/from LAX (especially if they can get a good Thruway option there) with daily service; with decent OTP, this actually has some very good potential.

As to the Sunset East...Amtrak may be serious there, but they don't have the equipment for it as a bilevel train. If they can pull off another Viewliner order (one can pray that the next order won't get bogged down with change orders and the like) running that train as a single-level set would probably be a winner, especially since it ought to connect with the Silvers at JAX no matter where it actually terminates. Failing that, it'll need a Superliner III order and a more favorable Congress.
 
Ugh. I'd rather have multiple daily LA-Indio. A daily Sunset is just going to increase losses even more without providing a substantially better train service.
Did you read about how the losses on Via's Ocean actually INCREASED when they dropped from 6 days a week to 3 days a week? Sure, their costs dropped, but their revenue dropped more. Do you have some substantiation on your point that losses would increase?
Revenue per train mile is far below the marginal cost per train mile and even gains from running daily won't bring it up over that threshold.
 
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