Jump to content




Help Support AmtrakTrains.com by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.

Photo

Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)


  • Please log in to reply
1052 replies to this topic

#1001 Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,223 posts

Posted 28 January 2017 - 08:00 PM

 

 

Negligence and carelessness of Amtrak to not have Postive Train Control installed on that section of track.

 
So, since the feds allowed the installation of PTC to get pushed back (even though Amtrak was still working on it,) would they not share the negligence? Maybe we should take a page from Fulham's book and fire the person that hired the lone person to exceed the MAS on the curve and derail.
One think that the lawyers will be stating this in the court room. I personally understand the responsibility of the engineer, and how projects are completed. But my understand and what is going to be said in a court room are not the same.

You really think the lawyer is not going to bring up a safety device? Or a lack of a safety device as negligence?

A few year back we had a safety device that one driver found annoying. So he wrap a sock around it to muffle the alarms. Rear ended a car. State Troopers saw the sock and off to jail the driver went. Did not matter to them what else happen. He disabled a safety device. He was guilty.

Negligence and carelessness is the claim. By not have a safety device at that location that would prevent overspeed.(If not PTC or the PRR system) Due to the lack of money or "we did not think we needed it there." Your going to prove your negligence and carelessness to the safety of the staff and passengers who ride your trains.

.

 

 

 

Just-Thinking,

 

The reality of the situation is you're probably right. Speaking from an operational perspective and regulatory perspective, PTC is not currently considered a safety device...which is why it currently isn't mandatory. I also know that as previously noted, PTC and Cab Signal drops are not the end all be all.  One only need to look at LIRR and NJT for verification. However, the average juror wouldn't be phased by the technical aspects and sometimes, all you need is a label.

 

Therefore, the ultimate question would be "is there something that Amtrak could have done," and the obvious answer is the cab signal drop...and it wasn't in place.  So, you're probably right when you say a lawyer would easily make the case, particularly if they point to other locations that DO have cab signal drops. This is probably why Amtrak settled as quickly as they did.


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#1002 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,178 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 29 January 2017 - 09:38 AM

Thirdrail, isn't it the case that PTC in the form of ACSES is considered to be a mandatory requirement for territories where speeds above 125mph are allowed? It is just not a mandatory requirement anywhere else, right?

 

As you have pointed out, full PTC was not really necessary to prevent the 188 incident. Only a code drop as has been used elsewhere was all that was needed.

 

I am still curious as to what caused the Engineer to accelerate so wildly. I guess we'll never know for sure, and will just have to leave it at "Loss of situational awareness".



#1003 Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,223 posts

Posted 29 January 2017 - 03:30 PM

Thirdrail, isn't it the case that PTC in the form of ACSES is considered to be a mandatory requirement for territories where speeds above 125mph are allowed? It is just not a mandatory requirement anywhere else, right?

 

That was the case prior to Amtrak implementing it throughout their territory. It is now required for Amtrak trains on the lines indicated in the MOU submitted to the FRA. However, it is still not classified as a safety device. It is still considered a supplemental system. The problem is if the FRA declares it a safety device, the other railroads would need to have it, particularly on ACSES territory. So for now, it is still considered a supplemental system.


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#1004 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,178 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 29 January 2017 - 05:24 PM

Are all operators on ACSES enabled trackage required to operate under ACSES already? Or are some them still working on equipping their equipment to be able to do so?

#1005 Acela150

Acela150

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,041 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NS Harrisburg Division

Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:53 PM

Jis, I can tell you that I seriously understand why the engineer lost his awareness. That area has multiple curves that are similar to the exit of Frankfort Junction. At least 2 that I can think of. Also in my two months of taking Septa trains to Trenton my trains have been rocked about 3 or 4 times out of at least 15 trips. Once on a set of the new rotem cars. The sound of the rock hitting the window is horrible and easily recognizable. I had to look at the windows for cracks to be sure.

Personally I believe that 188 did experience such an event. I also believe that a Septa train to Trenton and an Acela were rocked that night. Septa for sure. I personally think that the 188 tragedy is a result of kids with nothing to do on a nice warm night. Which is a result of poor parenting and a result of our Philly schools being treated like they don't matter. Here in Philly we have a new sugary beverage tax. It will help fund pre-k programs. I personally wish that it would be expanded to give these kids better after school and summer programs.
These posts are my views and opinions.

Donate your spare time! Be a Volunteer Firefighter!
 
"Mainline 66W Recrew On Board at Abrams ready to head east when you can handle us, Ok 66W, ok on signal indication at Norris, take it to the Falls to wait for the window"

#1006 Bob Dylan

Bob Dylan

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,281 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:Passenger Trains/Travel/Sports/Gov't/ Politics/History/Reading/
    Movies/Music/Space-Ancient Aliens

Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:58 PM

Always good to get solid info from someone who is actually there! Thanks Steve! 😉
"There's Something About a Train! It's Magic!"-- 1970s Amtrak Ad
 "..My heart is warm with the friends I make,and better friends I'll not be knowing,
Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take,No matter where its going!.." -Edna St. Vincent Millay

#1007 Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,223 posts

Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:45 PM



Are all operators on ACSES enabled trackage required to operate under ACSES already? Or are some them still working on equipping their equipment to be able to do so?

 

This is only required on the NHB line. ALL trains must be equipped to enter the territory. It is not a requirement on other territories.

 

At any rate, you can tell a former NS executive is at the helm since Amtrak is now suing the engineer involved in 188.

 

Amtrak Defends Self From Lawsuit Brought By Engineer In 2015 Fatal Derailment

 

 

Please allow a brief "fair use" quote:

 


 

Bostian says he sustained injuries to his head, back and legs in the derailment, in addition to post-concussion syndrome and psychological injuries. Bostian claims some or all of these injuries are permanent, that he sustained a physical or mental impairment which may prevent him from undertaking his usual duties, a loss of earning power, physical and mental anguish, fiscal and credit rating losses and funds expended for his medical treatment.

 

On behalf of Amtrak, Hohn disagreed with Bostian’s arguments, countering that his claims are preempted by federal law and that the plaintiff was responsible for the deadly crash. 

 

To that point, Hohn introduced a brand-new counter-claim, seeking damages against Bostian for his alleged negligence in causing the accident, and denied the underlying rationale of his allegations.

 


 


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#1008 Acela150

Acela150

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,041 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NS Harrisburg Division

Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:39 PM

This is one thing that is ridiculous about NS executives. They sue the person who was at the throttle.

There's no point to it. They know that person doesn't have the money they are requesting for settlement. On top of that NS executives weren't even thought of at Amtrak at the time of the 188 incident.
These posts are my views and opinions.

Donate your spare time! Be a Volunteer Firefighter!
 
"Mainline 66W Recrew On Board at Abrams ready to head east when you can handle us, Ok 66W, ok on signal indication at Norris, take it to the Falls to wait for the window"

#1009 Acela150

Acela150

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,041 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NS Harrisburg Division

Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:45 PM

I'll add that I read the article. I find it hilarious that people suing Amtrak are claiming the engineer was using his cell phone when that was ruled out as a possible cause within days of the derailment.
These posts are my views and opinions.

Donate your spare time! Be a Volunteer Firefighter!
 
"Mainline 66W Recrew On Board at Abrams ready to head east when you can handle us, Ok 66W, ok on signal indication at Norris, take it to the Falls to wait for the window"

#1010 AmtrakBlue

AmtrakBlue

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,575 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Delaware

Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:13 PM

DA: No charges to be filed in deadly Amtrak crash in Philadelphia

http://6abc.com/news...elphia/1971959/

#1011 tricia

tricia

    Conductor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 509 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Spring Creek, NC

Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:15 PM

From AP this afternoon: "The speeding Amtrak engineer involved in a derailment that killed eight people and injured about 200 others in Philadelphia won't face criminal charges, the city district attorney's office said Tuesday.

Prosecutors said they can't prove engineer Brandon Bostian acted with "conscious disregard" when he accelerated the train to 106 mph on a 50 mph curve."

 

Link to this news story: http://hosted.ap.org...EMPLATE=DEFAULT



#1012 Rover

Rover

    Lead Service Attendant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 155 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:N. Texas

Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:42 PM

Judge orders Philly DA's Office to charge Amtrak engineer Bostian
 
http://www.philly.co...k-engineer.html
 
 


President Judge Marsha Neifield of Philadelphia Municipal Court on Thursday ordered the city District Attorney’s Office to reverse course and criminally charge Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment. 
 
To avoid a potential conflict of interest, the District Attorney's Office responded that it would refer the prosecution to the state attorney general.


Edited by pennyk, 11 May 2017 - 09:53 PM.
indicate quoted language

I've ridden: ~ The Empire Builder 1981 ~ The Coast Starlight 1981 ~ The Texas Eagle ~ The Sunset Limited ~
Books: ~ Time-Life - The Old West ~ The Railroaders * Rail Ventures - 4th Edition

 

I think it is absolute mythology that there's any national system that is profitable. And I think the naysayers just have to get over it. ~ Amtrak President Alex Kummant ~ June 2008

 


#1013 PVD

PVD

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,985 posts

Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:03 PM

How do you as a prosecutor prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury when other prosecutors have made a determination they can't do it? Defense counsel will jump all over that.



#1014 Acela150

Acela150

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,041 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NS Harrisburg Division

Posted 11 May 2017 - 09:45 PM

Judge orders Philly DA's Office to charge Amtrak engineer Bostian

 

http://www.philly.co...k-engineer.html

 

President Judge Marsha Neifield of Philadelphia Municipal Court on Thursday ordered the city District Attorney’s Office to reverse course and criminally charge Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment. 

 

To avoid a potential conflict of interest, the District Attorney's Office responded that it would refer the prosecution to the state attorney general.

 

You can thank the Personal Injury lawyers for the choice.. They kept crying wolf about how the Philly DA has decided against pressing charges. IMHO they were being sore losers and looking for a bigger pay day. 

 

The crazy part is, they're misdemeanors. Not felony charges they want brought. 

 

But the DA here in Philly is in some trouble with the Feds over Tax Evasion charges and then some. And he has refused to step down despite calls from the Mayor, and the Governor of PA to step down. There is an election for a new DA this year on the plus side. 

 

But I do agree with the DA's office to defer it to the state to avoid a conflict of interest. 

 

How do you as a prosecutor prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury when other prosecutors have made a determination they can't do it? Defense counsel will jump all over that.

 

IMO You can't.. He wasn't using a cell phone or any device that's prohibited and there is no way that he was bound and determined to derail the train. No IFC's. It's just a case where it wouldn't go well for the prosecution. 

 

Now IMO this poor guy will have to live the rest of his life knowing that a simple mistake caused 8 people to lose their lives and hundreds more injured. He's already guilty of derailing the train. But it's so much different then killing a trespasser. In the case of a trespasser you can't do anything, you just hit them and have to live with it. But knowing that 8 people died while you were at the throttle and you made a mistake because you were worried about fellow workers.. I honestly feel sorrow for the engineer. I can only imagine what he feels like everyday. 


These posts are my views and opinions.

Donate your spare time! Be a Volunteer Firefighter!
 
"Mainline 66W Recrew On Board at Abrams ready to head east when you can handle us, Ok 66W, ok on signal indication at Norris, take it to the Falls to wait for the window"

#1015 Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,223 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 01:37 AM

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:

 


 

The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.

"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

 

It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#1016 Chessie

Chessie

    Lead Service Attendant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 May 2017 - 02:44 AM

Did families of victims receive any type of compensation?

#1017 PVD

PVD

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,985 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 05:29 AM

Yes, there is compensation, Amtrak is settling the civil side, there was a major controversy because Amtrak is limited by law in the size of its payout, in a case with many victims the amounts (per victim) will not be particularly large.  Folks just seem to forget or ignore that it is possible for something terrible to happen, for someone to do something wrong, and it is not a criminal act. The PA statute requires "conscious disregard" and there just do not seem to be a set of facts we have been made aware of to support that being applicable. 



#1018 Acela150

Acela150

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,041 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NS Harrisburg Division

Posted 12 May 2017 - 02:45 PM

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
 


 
The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

 
It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.
These posts are my views and opinions.

Donate your spare time! Be a Volunteer Firefighter!
 
"Mainline 66W Recrew On Board at Abrams ready to head east when you can handle us, Ok 66W, ok on signal indication at Norris, take it to the Falls to wait for the window"

#1019 Chessie

Chessie

    Lead Service Attendant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

So Amtrak is specially protected by law to give only limited compensation? If that's the case I can certainly understand the frustration of the family.

#1020 PVD

PVD

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,985 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:17 PM

The old cap was 200 million, Congress raised it to 295 after this accident, I believe the settlement is 265.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users