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#241 jebr

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 07:32 PM

Any LD north-south service between Chicago and the West Coast would be a plus, IMO.  It would open up dozens of new city pairs, and it would probably cut down on the number of transferring passengers in Chicago, LA and PDX.

 

What would be a good routing for such a service? I could see something maybe between Denver and Raton and connecting the Heartland Flyer to Kansas City somehow, maybe continuing to the Builder and Zephyr with either an Omaha/Sioux Falls/Fargo or Des Moines/St. Paul/Duluth routing, but I'm not sure how you connect, say, the mountain west state stops of the Empire Builder with the Sunset Limited.



#242 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:52 AM

Any LD north-south service between Chicago and the West Coast would be a plus, IMO.  It would open up dozens of new city pairs, and it would probably cut down on the number of transferring passengers in Chicago, LA and PDX.

 

I think if you're looking for far north to far south it would be hard for anything other than the current CS, TE, and CONO. I can see shorter trains like Kansas City-Texas or Denver-Albuquerque or Phoenix-Las Vegas (I'm not sure any tracks even exist for these cases) but that would require Congress to get rid of the 750 mile rule or state support. I can't imagine any true north south route from a state bordering Canada to a state bordering Mexico that doesn't serve at least one of the major markets (Chicago, LA, or Bay Area). Maybe a Minneapolis-St. Louis-Texas but that would mostly duplicate the TE (maybe through cars MSP-STL). 


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#243 Eric S

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:14 AM

 

Any LD north-south service between Chicago and the West Coast would be a plus, IMO.  It would open up dozens of new city pairs, and it would probably cut down on the number of transferring passengers in Chicago, LA and PDX.

 

I think if you're looking for far north to far south it would be hard for anything other than the current CS, TE, and CONO. I can see shorter trains like Kansas City-Texas or Denver-Albuquerque or Phoenix-Las Vegas (I'm not sure any tracks even exist for these cases) but that would require Congress to get rid of the 750 mile rule or state support. I can't imagine any true north south route from a state bordering Canada to a state bordering Mexico that doesn't serve at least one of the major markets (Chicago, LA, or Bay Area). Maybe a Minneapolis-St. Louis-Texas but that would mostly duplicate the TE (maybe through cars MSP-STL). 

 

 

If we're dreaming of a new N-S route, I'd suggest Twin Cities to Texas via Kansas City rather than St. Louis - adds Des Moines and either Tulsa or Wichita to the Amtrak system.



#244 Devil's Advocate

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:19 AM

This thread reminds me of the band that continued playing even as the Titanic sank into freezing water.


If I had a tumor I'd name it Marla.


#245 jphjaxfl

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:36 AM

 

 

Any LD north-south service between Chicago and the West Coast would be a plus, IMO.  It would open up dozens of new city pairs, and it would probably cut down on the number of transferring passengers in Chicago, LA and PDX.

 

I think if you're looking for far north to far south it would be hard for anything other than the current CS, TE, and CONO. I can see shorter trains like Kansas City-Texas or Denver-Albuquerque or Phoenix-Las Vegas (I'm not sure any tracks even exist for these cases) but that would require Congress to get rid of the 750 mile rule or state support. I can't imagine any true north south route from a state bordering Canada to a state bordering Mexico that doesn't serve at least one of the major markets (Chicago, LA, or Bay Area). Maybe a Minneapolis-St. Louis-Texas but that would mostly duplicate the TE (maybe through cars MSP-STL). 

 

 

If we're dreaming of a new N-S route, I'd suggest Twin Cities to Texas via Kansas City rather than St. Louis - adds Des Moines and either Tulsa or Wichita to the Amtrak system.

 

agreed, if those routes haven't been reinstated after almost 46 years, it won't be happening.  After 5/1/1971, politicians tried to reinstate routes in their territories.  The North Coast Hiawatha was reinstated with support of Mike Mansfield.  The Shenandoan and the Mountaineer were reinstated across West Virginia with the support of Robert Byrd and Harley Stagers.  These routes were later discontinued due to budget constraints. 



#246 Palmetto

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:56 PM

This thread reminds me of the band that continued playing even as the Titanic sank into freezing water.

Very good analogy--unfortunately.



#247 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:25 PM

After 5/1/1971, politicians tried to reinstate routes in their territories.  The North Coast Hiawatha was reinstated with support of Mike Mansfield.  The Shenandoan and the Mountaineer were reinstated across West Virginia with the support of Robert Byrd and Harley Stagers.  These routes were later discontinued due to budget constraints

 

 


Except for Byrd Crap of course.


 

 


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#248 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:29 PM

 


 

agreed, if those routes haven't been reinstated after almost 46 years, it won't be happening.  

 

 

I believe this thread was written before the need to include "Fantasy Thread". Otherwise there's really no point to suggesting to add any new routes or reinstate old ones.


Trains Traveled:
 
Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA) 
Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI)
Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS)
Lake Short Limited (NYP-CHI)
Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL)
Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX)
California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY)
City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL)

 

Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 

https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/

 


#249 neroden

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:25 AM

agreed, if those routes haven't been reinstated after almost 46 years, it won't be happening.  After 5/1/1971, politicians tried to reinstate routes in their territories.  The North Coast Hiawatha was reinstated with support of Mike Mansfield.  The Shenandoan and the Mountaineer were reinstated across West Virginia with the support of Robert Byrd and Harley Stagers.  These routes were later discontinued due to budget constraints.

The Lake Shore Limited was reinstated and it stuck. Better fundamentals.

Based on the fundamental economic principles of railroading, I would not add any new routes, with the one exception of Detroit to Toledo (which is an absurd gap). I would add additional frequencies to existing one-a-day routes. This is invariably correct for best financial results.

Though if there were an opportunity to reroute the Sunset through Phoenix or the Chief through Amarillo and Wichita, I'd take it (unlike, apparently, Boardman).

If I were restricted to actual new routes, my top priority would be some sort of connecting service to Columbus, based purely on population.
--Nathanael--

Please feel free to moderate my posts.

#250 WoodyinNYC

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:57 AM

This thread reminds me of the band that continued playing even as the Titanic sank into freezing water.

The Titanic's band did the right thing. The music soothed the stressed out passengers. Playing the music helped soothe the band. And what else was the band gonna do anyway? Not enuff lifeboats to rescue steerage passengers or the staff.

 

Now just because the Russians are deciding our elections and we have the biggest Constitutional crisis since South Carolina rebels fired on Fort Sumpter, it doesn't hurt nothing to keep playing some music.  :) 



#251 ainamkartma

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:53 AM

 

agreed, if those routes haven't been reinstated after almost 46 years, it won't be happening.  After 5/1/1971, politicians tried to reinstate routes in their territories.  The North Coast Hiawatha was reinstated with support of Mike Mansfield.  The Shenandoan and the Mountaineer were reinstated across West Virginia with the support of Robert Byrd and Harley Stagers.  These routes were later discontinued due to budget constraints.

 

The Lake Shore Limited was reinstated and it stuck. Better fundamentals.

 

 

Can you teach me some history?  I didn't know there was ever a (modern) time when there wasn't NYC-Chicago passenger service via the water level route.  That seems utterly absurd, since the fundamentals, as you point out, are so good.

 

So was there a gap between the ending of the 20th Century Limited (or whatever train) and the starting of the LSL, and if so, when was it?

 

(I grew up on within earshot of the Hudson Line, so the passing trains on their way to and from the north and west were part of my childhood.)

 

Thanks,

Ainamkartma



#252 looshi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:59 AM

The water level route was not included in the initial system in '71. Instead the PRR route was selected. It was brought back as a state-supported train with New York and Ohio sharing the cost. When Ohio dropped out a few years later it was retained by Amtrak as part of the national system.

 

Incidentally, there were plans to split the train at Cleveland and run a section through Columbus to Cincinnati, but these discussions ended when Ohio withdrew support. It's an interesting counter-factual to think about if that had happened. There would probably be more potential infrastructure for a potential 3C corridor. 



#253 Eric S

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:01 AM

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

 

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.


Edited by Eric S, 23 March 2017 - 10:03 AM.


#254 ainamkartma

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:14 PM

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.

 

EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

 

Thanks all!

 

Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time?  Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?

 

I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.

 

Ainamkartma



#255 jis

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:10 AM

This thread reminds me of the band that continued playing even as the Titanic sank into freezing water.

Eventually only gurgling sounds emanating from it ;)

#256 jis

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:14 AM

The 20th Century Limited was discontinued before Amtrak but there was other NYC/PC service on the route until Amtrak Day. The Lake Shore Limited route was not included in the initial basic Amtrak system and there were a few days at the start of Amtrak with no service. Service was returned (as the "Lake Shore") between Chicago and New York in 1971-1972 with some state operating support. Then was restored in 1975 (as the "Lake Shore Limited") between Chicago and New York/Boston.
 
EDIT: So, to directly and more clearly answer the question, there was a short gap in service on the route in 1971 and then again from 1972 to 1975.

 
Thanks all!
 
Did Amtrak run the Empire Service at the time?  Were the Empire Service levels similar to today's?
 
I (possibly incorrectly) remember that the commuter service on the Hudson Line prior to the formation of Metro-North was simply horrible: bad timekeeping, unwashed cars, no through trains past Croton-Harmon.
 
Ainamkartma
Amtrak ran service to Buffalo/Niagara Falls from day one.

Indeed PC Commuter Service was never better than horrible in most cases. There were minor exceptions I am told.




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