NEC Capacity

When I rode the NEC from WAS to Philly last week, I took a 6 AM train leaving DC and a 7:30 PM train returning from Philly.

It was pretty crowded for a Saturday, I thought.

Roughly, the Regionals run hourly with an Acela thrown in between every couple of them.

I understand they are competing for track in the metro areas like DC, Philadelphia, and New York, but is there no more room to add trains?

Now, crowded doesn't necessarily mean sold out. I suppose if they are running at 95% capacity at the greatest, they are pretty well optimized. But something I read or heard at some point in my life is that when you start to reach 75 or 80% capacity, you won't grow as much as you would if you increased services.

There is considerable room specially off peak (except on weekends when single tracking is in effect between Secaucus and NYP), to add trains. What is lacking is rolling stock to do so reliably.

BTW on NEC South I think there is an Acela every hour from 6am to at least 6pm or some such.

I typed an answer, which disappeared and now Jis has modified his answer to include my thoughts. I would also throw in the Metro-North track profile as well.

Aren't the Acelas cut way back on Saturdays though?

keelhauled said:

Aren't the Acelas cut way back on Saturdays though?

Click to expand...

Yes. And even the ones that run aren't always all that full. Amtrak does have unused slots even on weekends given their current schedule. NJT is much closer to maxed out both on weekdays and weekends in the NJ portion of the NEC.

Which is why I'm particularly intrigued. The lowest rate was only available for me for the early morning and late evening trains. As busy as they were, I can only imagine that the midday and closer-to-weekend-rush-hour trains were even more crowded. On a Saturday and/or Sunday, isn't there enough equipment to run the trains every 1/2 hour or 45 minutes or so?

Weekday rush hours are a totally different story, and I appreciate the comments with regards to sharing the line with others.

We need 16-car trains! If you build it, they will come!

There isn't track capacity to run anything into New York at half hour intervals from the west on weekends. There is track capacity for running 8 trains into New York from the west and 8 trains out of New York to the west, each hour. The outbounds in the first half hour and the inbounds in the second half hour. Of the 8 slots, 5 are used by NJT and 3 by Amtrak, so Amtrak is kind of limited to 3 (occasionally 4) trains per hour all concentrated in a half hour window in each direction. This state of affairs will prevail until new tunnels are built. This we have heard from the gentleman who manages the capital assets of Amtrak on the NEC in several of their presentations, including one at TransAction last year.

What's the minimum headway on the NEC? Is the eight trains a hard limit or eight trains in "well the Germans could cram 10 in there because they do X differently" way?

2.5 mins.

If I'm remembering what that means correctly, that means you can get 8 trains through in 20 minutes (spaced 2.5 min apart), then it takes 10 minutes for the last train to clear out before you can start running trains the other way.

0:00-0:20: 8 trains same direction

0:20-0:30: turnaround time

0:30-0:50: 8 trains other direction

0:50-1:00: turnaround time.

Repeat.

the three words that have made Proctor & Gamble the most money?

lather

rinse

repeat

Ryan, that is correct!

jis said:

Ryan, that is correct!

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So why the 10 minutes after the last train to clear? Technology not up to snuf to ensure switches are right and there is no fouling in less time than that?

It takes ten minutes for the train to clear the tunnel, as one is down for rehab.

VentureForth said:

So why the 10 minutes after the last train to clear? Technology not up to snuf to ensure switches are right and there is no fouling in less time than that?

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The Hudson River tunnels are 14,575 feet or 2.76 miles long. Add distance to switches on either end, when only 1 tunnel is open, there is a slow circa 3 mile segment that takes time for the last train of a group to get through and clear before traffic can enter in the other direction. The new tunnels are badly needed, even if they will be seriously expensive.

andersone said:

the three words that have made Proctor & Gamble the most money?

lather

rinse

repeat

Click to expand...

My shampoo bottle has those same three words, but adds "if necessary" after repeat. I feel like a fool standing in the shower saying "if necessary" while I wash my hair.

:giggle: :unsure: :help: :giggle:

Venture Forth: it doesn't really take 10 minutes for the last train to clear and change traffic. The "turnaround time" that Ryan S mentioned was originally included to allow for late trains and additional moves without devastating the opposing movements. That time is routinely used by NJT between November and December when they decide to run their shoppers specials. In fact, every weekend there is a time period when there are 9 scheduled outbound movements.

As Jis mentioned, NJT has their eyes on the turnaround time. The problem is the actual station starts filling up.

NYP aside, BAL-WAS still remains a bit of an issue especially with MARC operating on weekends.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks!

afigg said:

VentureForth said:

So why the 10 minutes after the last train to clear? Technology not up to snuf to ensure switches are right and there is no fouling in less time than that?

Click to expand...

The Hudson River tunnels are 14,575 feet or 2.76 miles long. Add distance to switches on either end, when only 1 tunnel is open, there is a slow circa 3 mile segment that takes time for the last train of a group to get through and clear before traffic can enter in the other direction. The new tunnels are badly needed, even if they will be seriously expensive.

Click to expand...

For a metropolitan area with a GDP valued higher than some small nations most likely, I think it will find a way to fund the creation of these new tunnels.

And even if they are funded, they are unlikely to open before 2025.

reppin_the_847 said:

afigg said:

VentureForth said:

So why the 10 minutes after the last train to clear? Technology not up to snuf to ensure switches are right and there is no fouling in less time than that?

Click to expand...

The Hudson River tunnels are 14,575 feet or 2.76 miles long. Add distance to switches on either end, when only 1 tunnel is open, there is a slow circa 3 mile segment that takes time for the last train of a group to get through and clear before traffic can enter in the other direction. The new tunnels are badly needed, even if they will be seriously expensive.

Click to expand...

For a metropolitan area with a GDP valued higher than some small nations most likely, I think it will find a way to fund the creation of these new tunnels.

Click to expand...

Small nations? At $1.74 trillion (with a "t"), the New York metro area would be in the top-15. firmly between Australia and Spain. If you include the entire Boston-Washington corridor, you'd be in the top-5.

I think this exemplifies how the rest of the country often loses sight of how freaking densely populated and productive the Northeast is.