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northnorthwest

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Feb 21, 2013
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Why is there no reasonable rail service between PGH and CLE? We have several trains daily between PHL and Harrisburg, why not maybe 4 daily between these two sizable populations? It would allow for easy travel for business and leisure activities, possibly even open up new airport options if there were ever some decent competition. The one rail line between them is long-distance and travels in the middle of the night both ways.
 
Why aren't there lots of items like this???!!!???? I would expect that there is probably bus service at some reasonable hours. We would like to see all kinds of routes established, but if any are added, they will be few and far between. Has to do with $$$$.
 
No one's going to pay for it. Ohio won't spend a penny on passenger rail, and Pennsylvania is busy spending what money they can on the Keystone and maybe a second NYP-PGH train (one day). PGH-CLE is so far down the list even the Hubble telescope couldn't find it.
 
The Pennsylvanian used to provide daytime service between PGH and CLE in several of its incarnations. The wikipedia entry on the Pennsylvanian provides a history of the service and when it was extended to CLE.

PennDOT, now that it has more money to work with, might be willing in the future to contribute towards an extension of the Pennsylvanian to Cleveland, although it would require a different schedule. But I expect PA would want Ohio to contribute to the state subsidy and as long as Kasich is Governor, any support from the state of Ohio is very unlikely.

In the near term, PennDOT's focus is going to be on improvements to HAR-PHL and PGH-PHL service.
 
Why is there no reasonable rail service between PGH and CLE? We have several trains daily between PHL and Harrisburg, why not maybe 4 daily between these two sizable populations? It would allow for easy travel for business and leisure activities, possibly even open up new airport options if there were ever some decent competition. The one rail line between them is long-distance and travels in the middle of the night both ways.
Many reasons, alas.

( a ) Amtrak has barely enuff equipment to run the trains it does.

Without multibillion orders of new coaches and locomotives,

it's stuck with the same routes it's had for years and years.

Amtrak has a Fleet Renewal Plan. On Amtrak.com, look at the bottom

"About Amtrak" and you can find it among the various Reports and

Documents. To update it as you read it, simply postpone all estimated

dates a few years to account for the failure of Congress to act on this

(or any other) problem.

Simply put, the plan is to order about 700 new single-level cars for

the East Coast Fleet and 600 more bi-levels for the Western trains.

Billions and Billions.

( b ) If Amtrak did scrounge up enuff cars for more train sets meanwhile,

it would need to clear another slot on the freight lines that host the

passenger trains. The State of Pennsylvania inquired of NS about a

second frequency of the Pennsylvanian Harrisburg-Pittsburgh (and

potentially beyond in either direction). Reportedly NS replied, 'For us

to give you another slot, we'll need another track'. Rebuilding another

track here, where once there were four, would cost a staggering sum.

( c ) The LD trains are usually timed to leave the East Coast big cities

late in the day and arrive in Chicago in the morning, in time to make

connections from there. As a result, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are in

the wrong places to get daylight stops. Srsly.


The WB long distance Lake Shore Ltd., from NYC via Albany and

Buffalo, reaches Cleveland well after midnight on its way to Chicago.

The WB Capitol Ltd out of Washington likewise passes thru Pittsburgh

around midnight and thru Cleveland pre-dawn. EB they again hit

the midway cities in the dark.

These schedules can't be tweaked by an hour or two to solve this

problem. And the cities can't be moved closer to Lake Michigan or

the Atlantic Coast.

The only solution is new trains with schedules built around convenient

arrivals and departures in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Toledo (and

perhaps Detroit). So we're back to needing more equipment for

more trains using slots on the freight railroads that will likely cost

hundreds of millions in upgrades to obtain.

( d ) Nobody is going to invest hundreds of millions to upgrade routes

that carry one or two or three LD trains each way. The projected

Return on Investment would not justify the cost.

But new intensively used corridors can sometimes get funding.

Most of the money came from the Stimulus, but Illinois is dramatically

upgrading the Chicago-St Louis line, which will improve service for

the LD Texas Eagle that covers the same route before heading beyond

to Texas. Michigan is upgrading the portion of the Chicago-Detroit route

within the state, to take an hour out of the schedule. But that segment

doesn't share tracks with a LD train.

The next major step for the Michigan trains will take place outside the state,

on the tracks from Union Station to the point in Indiana where Amtrak-owned

tracks head into Michigan. This crucial segment, called South of the Lake,

now carries the 5 trains supported by the State of Michigan (a number

which could increase when more equipment becomes available), as well as

Amtrak's Lake Shore Ltd and the Capital Ltd.

Recently a Draft Environmental Impact Study was released on plans to

upgrade this segment -- currently the most congested freight route in the

country -- with the aim to reduce the schedule by an hour and get the

Chicago-Detroit trip under 4 hours. If they can cut one full hour here, it

would cut the same hour from the routes NYC-Chicago and D.C-Chicago,

making slightly better departures and arrivals. But Cleveland and Pittsburgh

would still be serve at night.

Tricky problems with the South of the Lake, tho. It's estimated to cost $2.5

to $3 Billion. Tricky part is who will pay for it? About half the mileage is in

Illinois. A few of the projects might be part of CREATE, Chicago's master

scheme for improved rail and roads in ChicagoLand, and so get some

state funding. Michigan stands to benefit the most from the results,

but spending Michigan tax money in Indiana? What do you think? LOL.

Indiana, OTOH, won't get so much out of it, except and until the Cardinal

and Hoosier State trains heading Chicago-Indianapolis move to this route

(and a new station is built on the higher-speed line around Gary) before

branching off to the south.

Building a higher-speed line South of the Lake would also cover about

a third of the cost of corridor service Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh.

That full route could cost, oh, $5 to $10 Billion all together, by a wild

guess, and looking at the costs of the higher-speed St Louis- and

Detroit-Chicago routes. It could also require cooperation and some

funds from three or four different states. Uh oh.

As a corridor, Chicago-Cleveland would have 8 or 10 daily trains, with

well over a million passengers a year, so the project would make sense.

With more than a million riders on the Michigan routes, close to two

million probably, and a million or two on the Cleveland trains, the

corridor would deserve federal support. Back to Congress again.

Uh oh.

And in conclusion … Zzzzzz ...

A Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh corridor, cutting say three hours out

of the schedule, would also cut about three hours out of any LD trains

sharing those tracks. And as dedicated passenger-train-only tracks,

the corridor could easily allow new or restored trains thru Cleveland,

thru Detroit via Toledo, and to Pittsburgh. The existing LD trains would

also be transformed by the faster running, departing and arriving at the

endpoints at much more attractive times.

So all we need is about 10 years and $10 Billion and we've got your

Pittsburgh problems almost solved. Um, still not getting thru the Allegheny

Mountains very easily, but Hey. You probably could get a second frequency

of the Capitol Limited and that would help a lot.
 
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Why is there no reasonable rail service between PGH and CLE? We have several trains daily between PHL and Harrisburg, why not maybe 4 daily between these two sizable populations? It would allow for easy travel for business and leisure activities, possibly even open up new airport options if there were ever some decent competition. The one rail line between them is long-distance and travels in the middle of the night both ways.
Many reasons, alas.

( a ) Amtrak has barely enuff equipment to run the trains it does.

Without multibillion orders of new coaches and locomotives,

it's stuck with the same routes it's had for years and years.

Amtrak has a Fleet Renewal Plan. On Amtrak.com, look at the bottom

"About Amtrak" and you can find it among the various Reports and

Documents. To update it as you read it, simply postpone all estimated

dates a few years to account for the failure of Congress to act on this

(or any other) problem.

Simply put, the plan is to order about 700 new single-level cars for

the East Coast Fleet and 600 more bi-levels for the Western trains.

Billions and Billions.

( b ) If Amtrak did scrounge up enuff cars for more train sets meanwhile,

it would need to clear another slot on the freight lines that host the

passenger trains. The State of Pennsylvania inquired of NS about a

second frequency of the Pennsylvanian Harrisburg-Pittsburgh (and

potentially beyond in either direction). Reportedly NS replied, 'For us

to give you another slot, we'll need another track'. Rebuilding another

track here, where once there were four, would cost a staggering sum.

( c ) The LD trains are usually timed to leave the East Coast big cities

late in the day and arrive in Chicago in the morning, in time to make

connections from there. As a result, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are in

the wrong places to get daylight stops. Srsly.


The WB long distance Lake Shore Ltd., from NYC via Albany and

Buffalo, reaches Cleveland well after midnight on its way to Chicago.

The WB Capitol Ltd out of Washington likewise passes thru Pittsburgh

around midnight and thru Cleveland pre-dawn. EB they again hit

the midway cities in the dark.

These schedules can't be tweaked by an hour or two to solve this

problem. And the cities can't be moved closer to Lake Michigan or

the Atlantic Coast.

The only solution is new trains with schedules built around convenient

arrivals and departures in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Toledo (and

perhaps Detroit). So we're back to needing more equipment for

more trains using slots on the freight railroads that will likely cost

hundreds of millions in upgrades to obtain.

( d ) Nobody is going to invest hundreds of millions to upgrade routes

that carry one or two or three LD trains each way. The projected

Return on Investment would not justify the cost.

But new intensively used corridors can sometimes get funding.

Most of the money came from the Stimulus, but Illinois is dramatically

upgrading the Chicago-St Louis line, which will improve service for

the LD Texas Eagle that covers the same route before heading beyond

to Texas. Michigan is upgrading the portion of the Chicago-Detroit route

within the state, to take an hour out of the schedule. But that segment

doesn't share tracks with a LD train.

The next major step for the Michigan trains will take place outside the state,

on the tracks from Union Station to the point in Indiana where Amtrak-owned

tracks head into Michigan. This crucial segment, called South of the Lake,

now carries the 5 trains supported by the State of Michigan (a number

which could increase when more equipment becomes available), as well as

Amtrak's Lake Shore Ltd and the Capital Ltd.

Recently a Draft Environmental Impact Study was released on plans to

upgrade this segment -- currently the most congested freight route in the

country -- with the aim to reduce the schedule by an hour and get the

Chicago-Detroit trip under 4 hours. If they can cut one full hour here, it

would cut the same hour from the routes NYC-Chicago and D.C-Chicago,

making slightly better departures and arrivals. But Cleveland and Pittsburgh

would still be serve at night.

Tricky problems with the South of the Lake, tho. It's estimated to cost $2.5

to $3 Billion. Tricky part is who will pay for it? About half the mileage is in

Illinois. A few of the projects might be part of CREATE, Chicago's master

scheme for improved rail and roads in ChicagoLand, and so get some

state funding. Michigan stands to benefit the most from the results,

but spending Michigan tax money in Indiana? What do you think? LOL.

Indiana, OTOH, won't get so much out of it, except and until the Cardinal

and Hoosier State trains heading Chicago-Indianapolis move to this route

(and a new station is built on the higher-speed line around Gary) before

branching off to the south.

Building a higher-speed line South of the Lake would also cover about

a third of the cost of corridor service Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh.

That full route could cost, oh, $5 to $10 Billion all together, by a wild

guess, and looking at the costs of the higher-speed St Louis- and

Detroit-Chicago routes. It could also require cooperation and some

funds from three or four different states. Uh oh.

As a corridor, Chicago-Cleveland would have 8 or 10 daily trains, with

well over a million passengers a year, so the project would make sense.

With more than a million riders on the Michigan routes, close to two

million probably, and a million or two on the Cleveland trains, the

corridor would deserve federal support. Back to Congress again.

Uh oh.

And in conclusion … Zzzzzz ...

A Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh corridor, cutting say three hours out

of the schedule, would also cut about three hours out of any LD trains

sharing those tracks. And as dedicated passenger-train-only tracks,

the corridor could easily allow new or restored trains thru Cleveland,

thru Detroit via Toledo, and to Pittsburgh. The existing LD trains would

also be transformed by the faster running, departing and arriving at the

endpoints at much more attractive times.

So all we need is about 10 years and $10 Billion and we've got your

Pittsburgh problems almost solved. Um, still not getting thru the Allegheny

Mountains very easily, but Hey. You probably could get a second frequency

of the Capitol Limited and that would help a lot.
WOW--thanks for all this information.

To the above posters, please be aware that I know these things are complicated. My asking why can't we have X is really just part of online fantasizing about rail. I just wish that we could have all these things right now. I don't see any excuse for it.

Let me ask a new question. Why doesn't some billionaire come in and build some of these rail lines him/herself? Why do we have to wait for congress, which seems totally incapable of accomplishing ANYTHING that we need to move this country forward? Weren't the big railroads of the past built by private enterprise and men who wanted to get rich? Why don't folks do the same thing now? We have greyhound and megabus right? They seem to exist and do okay. Why doesn't some collection of rich folks pick one of these rail regions that can get some traffic and build it and get people hooked onto a "new" service" that we had 60 years ago?
 
There are fifteen trains a day that go from Harrisburg to Philadelphia. There is only one that goes from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Does seem lopsided. It would be nice to have an additional train to Pittsburgh from Harrisburg that left in the morning for a noon or 1PM arrival,but I don't see that happening. All the trains that pass through Cleveland happen between Midnight and 6AM. Of course with the recent delays there has been daytime service to Cleveland.
 
To the above posters, please be aware that I know these things are complicated. My asking why can't we have X is really just part of online fantasizing about rail. I just wish that we could have all these things right now. I don't see any excuse for it.

Let me ask a new question. Why doesn't some billionaire come in and build some of these rail lines him/herself? Why do we have to wait for congress, which seems totally incapable of accomplishing ANYTHING that we need to move this country forward? Weren't the big railroads of the past built by private enterprise and men who wanted to get rich? Why don't folks do the same thing now? We have greyhound and megabus right? They seem to exist and do okay. Why doesn't some collection of rich folks pick one of these rail regions that can get some traffic and build it and get people hooked onto a "new" service" that we had 60 years ago?
Well, passenger trains (in general, I know the NEC can be considered profitable) lose money in this country. That doesn't seem likely to change in the next few decades. A billionaire isn't going to invest huge amounts of money into passenger trains because he'll never see it again. It's kind of a vicious circle--rail won't be profitable without pretty much gold (okay, maybe silver) plated infrastructure dedicated primarily to passenger trains on which you can run very frequent service that promotes demand. And the NEC has that, it's been there ever since the early 1900s. But for the rest of the country, where that hasn't existed in several decades or never did at all, that would take billions, tens of billions, maybe hundreds of billions for the whole country to build it. Mammoth up front cost which wouldn't be repaid for decades. No private company is going to take that kind of gamble. So it falls to the government to provide the infrastructure. But there isn't exactly money in it for the government either, so rightly or wrongly Congress isn't thrilled with the idea of funding it.

Okay, so the busses. They work because they're cheap to run, and more importantly, have negligible infrastructure costs. The interstates are already there, and in general are untolled. No regulations or hoops to jump through for that part of the operation. So start up costs are vanishingly small compared to rail. And so are operating costs. So they can be profitable, the market will bear tickets that are high enough to pay for the expenses the operator is responsible for, because the overhead costs are so small.

It occurs to me that in the case of passenger rail (except), the government subsidizes the operations, but not the infrastructure. For busses and air (and NEC), the government subsidizes infrastructure, but not operations. Is that smart? Opinions vary, but it's the way it is for now, and it doesn't seem likely to change on a wide scale for the foreseeable future.
 
To the above posters, please be aware that I know these things are complicated. My asking why can't we have X is really just part of online fantasizing about rail. I just wish that we could have all these things right now. I don't see any excuse for it.

Let me ask a new question. Why doesn't some billionaire come in and build some of these rail lines him/herself? Why do we have to wait for congress, which seems totally incapable of accomplishing ANYTHING that we need to move this country forward? Weren't the big railroads of the past built by private enterprise and men who wanted to get rich? Why don't folks do the same thing now? We have greyhound and megabus right? They seem to exist and do okay. Why doesn't some collection of rich folks pick one of these rail regions that can get some traffic and build it and get people hooked onto a "new" service" that we had 60 years ago?
Well, passenger trains (in general, I know the NEC can be considered profitable) lose money in this country. That doesn't seem likely to change in the next few decades. A billionaire isn't going to invest huge amounts of money into passenger trains because he'll never see it again. It's kind of a vicious circle--rail won't be profitable without pretty much gold (okay, maybe silver) plated infrastructure dedicated primarily to passenger trains on which you can run very frequent service that promotes demand. And the NEC has that, it's been there ever since the early 1900s. But for the rest of the country, where that hasn't existed in several decades or never did at all, that would take billions, tens of billions, maybe hundreds of billions for the whole country to build it. Mammoth up front cost which wouldn't be repaid for decades. No private company is going to take that kind of gamble. So it falls to the government to provide the infrastructure. But there isn't exactly money in it for the government either, so rightly or wrongly Congress isn't thrilled with the idea of funding it.

Okay, so the busses. They work because they're cheap to run, and more importantly, have negligible infrastructure costs. The interstates are already there, and in general are untolled. No regulations or hoops to jump through for that part of the operation. So start up costs are vanishingly small compared to rail. And so are operating costs. So they can be profitable, the market will bear tickets that are high enough to pay for the expenses the operator is responsible for, because the overhead costs are so small.

It occurs to me that in the case of passenger rail (except), the government subsidizes the operations, but not the infrastructure. For busses and air (and NEC), the government subsidizes infrastructure, but not operations. Is that smart? Opinions vary, but it's the way it is for now, and it doesn't seem likely to change on a wide scale for the foreseeable future.
Here are my solutions overall to the rail problem.

1. Raise taxes on the rich. The richer you are the more tax you pay. Top tax rate would be maybe 90%. So if you have 1 million you still get to keep 100,000. Still plenty of money. Below a certain threshold, maybe 20k you don't pay tax. I'll let some economist figure the details.

2. Double/triple/quadruple the price of gas through taxation. Make it very painful to use a private automobile. Lots of toll roads/tunnels/bridges/etc. Very high parking fees. In essence the use of a car should be considered a luxury. Savings for fuel efficiency and car pooling. Those who actually need a vehicle for their business can get a deduction. Taking kids to soccer games doesn't count.

3. Make higher taxes for areas farther outside the urban core, thus encouraging people to live in dense concentrations and more efficiently.

4. Massive increase in fees on unhealthy foods/drinks/fast food/etc. Encourage healthy eating and collect the money for these bad habits.

5. Using these funds invest heavily in public transit at the local and regional level (high speed rail). Create jobs. In my concept citizens of that city would have a pass for their transit system paid directly through tax deduction, thus encouraging ridership. The money would also go toward a single public health system for everyone, and other basic functions like parks, public tv, radio, arts, education, etc.

PROBLEM SOLVED!
 
1. Raise taxes on the rich. The richer you are the more tax you pay. Top tax rate would be maybe 90%. So if you have 1 million you still get to keep 100,000. Still plenty of money. Below a certain threshold, maybe 20k you don't pay tax. I'll let some economist figure the details.
Good thing you decided to let an economist do the heavy lifting because this might be one of the most poorly thought out things on any topic I've ever seen. Although higher taxes in low density areas, which would effectively destroy agriculture, is up there too.

Anyhow, Pittsburgh and Cleveland don't interact nearly as much as you'd think they do. There's not even a direct interstate link between them!
 
Here are my solutions overall to the rail problem.


1. Raise taxes on the rich. The richer you are the more tax you pay. Top tax rate would be maybe 90%. So if you have 1 million you still get to keep 100,000. Still plenty of money. Below a certain threshold, maybe 20k you don't pay tax. I'll let some economist figure the details.

2. Double/triple/quadruple the price of gas through taxation. Make it very painful to use a private automobile. Lots of toll roads/tunnels/bridges/etc. Very high parking fees. In essence the use of a car should be considered a luxury. Savings for fuel efficiency and car pooling. Those who actually need a vehicle for their business can get a deduction. Taking kids to soccer games doesn't count.

3. Make higher taxes for areas farther outside the urban core, thus encouraging people to live in dense concentrations and more efficiently.

4. Massive increase in fees on unhealthy foods/drinks/fast food/etc. Encourage healthy eating and collect the money for these bad habits.

5. Using these funds invest heavily in public transit at the local and regional level (high speed rail). Create jobs. In my concept citizens of that city would have a pass for their transit system paid directly through tax deduction, thus encouraging ridership. The money would also go toward a single public health system for everyone, and other basic functions like parks, public tv, radio, arts, education, etc.

PROBLEM SOLVED!
Let's see, as someone who lives in a rural area...Great. No car. No transportation. No way to get to the train station. Crap. Higher taxes. Well, it's ok I can't get to the train station, because now I can't afford the ticket anyway. But let's say I soldier on and try to earn more so I can afford to take the train again. Blast! More taxes. No more money. Can't afford to stay in home. Move to city. Oh dear. All the farmers couldn't afford their sky high taxes. Now no one's eating. Houston, we have a problem.
 
( a ) Amtrak has barely enuff equipment to run the trains it does. Without multibillion orders of new coaches and locomotives, it's stuck with the same routes it's had for years and years.

( b ) If Amtrak did scrounge up enuff cars for more train sets meanwhile, it would need to clear another slot on the freight lines that host the passenger trains. The State of Pennsylvania inquired of NS about a second frequency of the Pennsylvanian Harrisburg-Pittsburgh (and potentially beyond in either direction). Reportedly NS replied, 'For us to give you another slot, we'll need another track'. Rebuilding another track here, where once there were four, would cost a staggering sum.
Extending the Pennsylvanian to Cleveland with an overnight layover at CLE would not require additional equipment if that was the approach taken. If PennDOT adds a 2nd Pennsylvanian in the place of a Keystone slot, Amtrak would have to assign more equipment, but they are not quite that limited on Amfleet I rolling stock. After the corridor bi-levels are delivered to the Midwest and CA, they will free up a number of Amfleet cars and most of the Horizons, which will meaning from an equipment standpoint, a 2nd Pennsy would be quite feasible.

As for running a second train between PGH and HAR, the Three Rivers ran over those tracks not that long ago. The PennDOT study on improvements to the western Keystone and options for improved service to PGH is supposed to be released soon. NS may open with a silly high cost number for running a second train; it is up to PennDOT and Amtrak to negotiate NS down to a reasonable price.

If I recall the number correctly, PennDOT stated it has budgeted about $200 million for the eastern Keystone corridor over the next few years, much of that going to new or improved stations. The politicians west of Harrisburg may demand that some money get spent on upgrades for service to Pittsburgh in a hey, we want some of that response.

I would not expect any interest by PennDOT in extending a daytime train to Cleveland in the near term. But I do expect that there will be efforts started on improving the PGH-HAR trip time and active discussions about adding a second daily PGH train. If that is eventually accomplished by PennDOT and Amtrak, by that time Ohio will have a new Governor because Kasich can't run for a 3rd term (Kasich is expected to be re-elected this November to a 2nd 4 year term). Maybe the successor administration in OH will be more friendly to passenger rail.

As for the discussions on CHI-CLE and South of the Lake route, the question was about CLE to PGH service, not Chicago.
 
Why is there no reasonable rail service between PGH and CLE?
Ohio.

Specifically, Governor Kasich and the modern Republican Party in Ohio.

The previous Governor, Strickland (D), and his predecessor, Taft ®, supported a plan called the "Ohio Hub".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Hub

The first step in the plan was the so-called "3-C route". This was set to be built/upgraded with federal funding in 2008... but then Kasich happened, and Kasich hates trains and went out of his way to make sure the funding didn't go to Ohio. So Ohio got nothing. Kasich really hates trains. He attempted to sabotage funding for the Cincy streetcar (he failed) and the Columbus streetcar (he succeeded) as well as sabotaging the state rail program.

Pennsylvania will upgrade PGH-PHL before it'll build a line to Ohio, so political support from Ohio is really needed for any PGH-CLE improvements.
 
Let me ask a new question. Why doesn't some billionaire come in and build some of these rail lines him/herself?
Most billionaires are old men from the age of oil. But even if you had a young billionaire who appreciated rail... there's the right-of-way problem. You *cannot* assemble or improve railroad lines without eminent domain powers, which require government support. End of story.
Back in the 19th century, governments happily supported the vast majority of proposed private railroad schemes. But nowadays, rail-haters like Kasich would oppose them.
 
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1. Raise taxes on the rich. The richer you are the more tax you pay. Top tax rate would be maybe 90%. So if you have 1 million you still get to keep 100,000. Still plenty of money. Below a certain threshold, maybe 20k you don't pay tax. I'll let some economist figure the details.
Good thing you decided to let an economist do the heavy lifting because this might be one of the most poorly thought out things on any topic I've ever seen.
We did it under FDR and Eisenhower -- top rate was 92%. For people who were raking in the equivalent of a million a year today.
It's actually the correct economic policy. There are very, very solid economic studies backing this up. There is no serious debate over this among real economists. There are, of course, paid hacks employed by billionaires who argue against high taxes on the rich (they're paid to say that!) But all genuine, honest economists understand that it is economically crucial to have extremely high taxes on the extremely rich.

Basically, there are two reasons such taxes are necessary:

(1) it prevents billionaires from buying the government (which they are doing today);

(2) it keeps the money circulating, it keeps it in the hands of the 99%, who *spend it* on stuff like food, clothing, shelter, travel, entertainment, etc.

When all the money is in the hands of the billionaires, it *doesn't get spent*, and so there is no productive activity. Billionaires don't generally invest money in anything useful either; they mostly put it into loan-sharking schemes (such as most of the major banks are) which make the nation as a whole poorer. Even if they invest it in stocks, they're usually investing in the secondary market, which is just gambling. (Only IPO and follow-on-offering investments actually provide capital for real businesses, the rest of the stock market doesn't.)

So, before you call something poorly thought out -- next time, do your research. I did. This is one of my specialties now.
 
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It's kind of a vicious circle--rail won't be profitable without pretty much gold (okay, maybe silver) plated infrastructure dedicated primarily to passenger trains on which you can run very frequent service that promotes demand. And the NEC has that, it's been there ever since the early 1900s. But for the rest of the country, where that hasn't existed in several decades or never did at all, that would take....
It's basically already being done in Vermont (both Amtrak routes), Massachusetts (all MBTA routes + all Amtrak routes), Schenectady-NYC in NY, Detroit-Chicago in Michigan, San Diego-LA in California, Charlotte-Winston/Salem-Raleigh in North Carolina, and a couple of Illinois routes...

So, it's completely practical and fairly straightforward, *and we're already working on it*.
 
Kasich anti-rail sentiments are well documented

He also has many other programs, or should I say lack thereof

As an Appalachian Ohioan I understand too well

the Kasich bias,,,,

The three C made sense if you have ever driven 71

wait, I used the "S" word,,,,
 
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Why is there no reasonable rail service between PGH and CLE?
Ohio.

Specifically, Governor Kasich and the modern Republican Party in Ohio.

The previous Governor, Strickland (D), and his predecessor, Taft ®, supported a plan called the "Ohio Hub".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Hub

The first step in the plan was the so-called "3-C route". This was set to be built/upgraded with federal funding in 2008... but then Kasich happened, and Kasich hates trains and went out of his way to make sure the funding didn't go to Ohio. So Ohio got nothing. Kasich really hates trains. He attempted to sabotage funding for the Cincy streetcar (he failed) and the Columbus streetcar (he succeeded) as well as sabotaging the state rail program.

Pennsylvania will upgrade PGH-PHL before it'll build a line to Ohio, so political support from Ohio is really needed for any PGH-CLE improvements.
Thanks, this is useful. And I guess this quote answers my question:

On December 9, 2010, the $400 million was reclaimed by the White House, following repeated promises by Governor John Kasich to cancel the project.

Time to give Kasich a railpass for life!
 
1. Raise taxes on the rich. The richer you are the more tax you pay. Top tax rate would be maybe 90%. So if you have 1 million you still get to keep 100,000. Still plenty of money. Below a certain threshold, maybe 20k you don't pay tax. I'll let some economist figure the details.
Good thing you decided to let an economist do the heavy lifting because this might be one of the most poorly thought out things on any topic I've ever seen.
We did it under FDR and Eisenhower -- top rate was 92%. For people who were raking in the equivalent of a million a year today.
It's actually the correct economic policy. There are very, very solid economic studies backing this up. There is no serious debate over this among real economists. There are, of course, paid hacks employed by billionaires who argue against high taxes on the rich (they're paid to say that!) But all genuine, honest economists understand that it is economically crucial to have extremely high taxes on the extremely rich.

Basically, there are two reasons such taxes are necessary:

(1) it prevents billionaires from buying the government (which they are doing today);

(2) it keeps the money circulating, it keeps it in the hands of the 99%, who *spend it* on stuff like food, clothing, shelter, travel, entertainment, etc.

When all the money is in the hands of the billionaires, it *doesn't get spent*, and so there is no productive activity. Billionaires don't generally invest money in anything useful either; they mostly put it into loan-sharking schemes (such as most of the major banks are) which make the nation as a whole poorer. Even if they invest it in stocks, they're usually investing in the secondary market, which is just gambling. (Only IPO and follow-on-offering investments actually provide capital for real businesses, the rest of the stock market doesn't.)

So, before you call something poorly thought out -- next time, do your research. I did. This is one of my specialties now.
No, I'm sticking to the "it's terrible." A $100k isn't a whole lot of money any more. Especially with dual income families now. You'd have to change literally every single aspect of life for that to work.
 
I was left wondering whether Alexandria Nick was talking about income tax or wealth tax. Also there seems to be some confusion or ambiguity there between marginal rate and overall rate. I don't think FDR or anyone else ever had a overall tax rate of 92%. The marginal rate was way up there, true.
 
Who would pay the higher taxes? You and me. Raising taxes is not the way to go. Actually, I would support eliminating the corporate taxes in the U.S. An article I read said the US took in $273B last year in corporate income taxes. Ifthat money we freed up maybe it could result in lower prices, new investment in manufacturing which could possibly bring jobs back to this country, and higher wages. Yes Ford may pay taxes to the government, but where does Ford get the money from. You and me in the form of higher prices. If Union Pacific, CSX and Norfolk-Southern had not had to pay taxes last year that money maybe gone to doubling on tripleing tacks or other new projects.
 
Corporate apologies like to trot out the big lie that if corporations didn't have to pay the evil government taxes everything would be rosy since all this money would be spent here in this country!

The truth is most corporations either don't pay any income tax due to loopholes enacted by their paid puppets in Congress,(see US Tax Code) or else are busy moving their Headquarters to "Off Shore" Tax Havens so they can claim they are not a US Company and thus not subject to US Taxation!

Here in Texas, where business doesn't pay their fair share of taxes, working people make it up through property taxes and "fees! Also incentives, aka Bribes, to Companies to move to Texas result in other states losing revenue and jobs which must be made up through higher taxes on working folks!( see Texas vs. California)

Legal yes, ethical? You decide! Want to change it? Vote!!!!
 
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Who would pay the higher taxes? You and me. Raising taxes is not the way to go. Actually, I would support eliminating the corporate taxes in the U.S. An article I read said the US took in $273B last year in corporate income taxes. Ifthat money we freed up maybe it could result in lower prices, new investment in manufacturing which could possibly bring jobs back to this country, and higher wages. Yes Ford may pay taxes to the government, but where does Ford get the money from. You and me in the form of higher prices. If Union Pacific, CSX and Norfolk-Southern had not had to pay taxes last year that money maybe gone to doubling on tripleing tacks or other new projects.
Are you really that naive to believe that the money will be invested as you suggest? I guess so. :( The railroads are currently more profitable than even. So why were they sitting on their thumbs all these years while getting overwhelmed with traffic, for which they collect the revenues readily and then routinely fail to meet their end of the bargain? What is it that was keeping them from investing the money they already have? What makes you think that if they were given an additional windfall they'd spend it any more productively? Faith?
 
It's kind of a vicious circle--rail won't be profitable without pretty much gold (okay, maybe silver) plated infrastructure dedicated primarily to passenger trains on which you can run very frequent service that promotes demand. And the NEC has that, it's been there ever since the early 1900s. But for the rest of the country, where that hasn't existed in several decades or never did at all, that would take....
It's basically already being done in Vermont (both Amtrak routes), Massachusetts (all MBTA routes + all Amtrak routes), Schenectady-NYC in NY, Detroit-Chicago in Michigan, San Diego-LA in California, Charlotte-Winston/Salem-Raleigh in North Carolina, and a couple of Illinois routes...

So, it's completely practical and fairly straightforward, *and we're already working on it*.
Yeah, but are any of those projects designed to create *profitable* routes? Like Vermont. They now have track good for 60 mph, except where it isn't cause of curves and bridges and such, but there's still just the one daily frequency, and no plans to change that for the foreseeable future. I don't see anyone arguing that the Vermonter should now be making money, and the state is still subsidizing it long after their trackwork was done. Same for CHI-DET, there's gonna be better travel times, but the only frequency increase is maybe one more later in the decade. Given that the Lincoln Service and San Joaquins still require a subsidy with more trains than that, I don't see any reason to assume that the Wolverines will suddenly be profitable.

I guess my question is has anyone explicitly said that the projects you mentioned are expected to mean the states no longer have to subsidize the trains and they will start making money? Because if not, I don't see how they change my argument that private investment is not going to be restoring passenger rail service due to unprofitablity (barring particular circumstances like the Florida East Coast) without the government footing the bill for the infrastructure.
 
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