Return of the Desert Wind?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

gwschenk

Train Attendant
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
83
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/titus-seeks-support-revive-amtrak-vegas

With glitzier modes of passenger rail seemingly having fallen by the track, Rep. Dina Titus says Las Vegas should look into what it might take to restore conventional Amtrak service to Southern California.

Titus said she’ll be shopping the idea to local leaders and economic development consultants this fall.

She floated the plan last week when the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee approved an Amtrak bill focused mostly at shoring up service along the Northeast Corridor, where government-subsidized rail makes money.

“The Southwest is getting overlooked,” the Las Vegas Democrat said in an interview. “My proposal is let’s do a study to see if it makes sense to put rail back in. You have to start somewhere.”

Amtrak dropped its Desert Wind route between Los Angeles and Ogden, Utah, via Las Vegas and Salt Lake City in 1997. Titus confessed she never boarded the Desert Wind, “but I would ride it now.”

“There have been passenger studies, ridership studies in the past but since then our population has grown and our tourist population has grown by 10 million,” she said. Titus added tourists from Europe “like to ride the train.”

Titus said she planned to meet with House Transportation Committee Chairman Bill Shuster, R-Pa., and to run the idea by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., who might take some persuading.
 
Although this seems like a great idea,having to convince Harry Reid is a Major Problem! If he's not ready aboard ( ie campaign contribution box checked) it'll go nowhere like all the other LAX-Vegas Rail schemes! ( see the Desert X-Press, RIP)
 
It seems to me, she isn't talking about putting back the Desert Wind, but just resurrecting a service between Las Vegas and California (she doesn't even specifically call it Los Angeles, so let's not jump to conclusions).

In this form, it would basically be a state-supported corridor service. Something like the Heartland Flyer maybe. So if Nevada and California can pony up the cash, I don't think the House or anybody else in Washington should have anything to say about it.
 
I-15 between LA and LV is a nightmare on weekends, I'm sure many people would prefer the train. Especially if they reuse the old station at The Union Plaza.
 
AmtrakLimited.com. We're willing to bash everything because we're too cool to admit we care about anything.
Not bashing, just a statement of reality. A second term Congresswoman trying to get a study funded translates to a return of the Desert Wind about as much as me getting up and walking down the hallway means I'm going to run a marathon tomorrow morning.

I'd love to see this train (or other LA-Vegas service) up and running. But I'm not going to get excited about Yet Another Study.
 
I-15 between LA and LV is a nightmare on weekends, I'm sure many people would prefer the train. Especially if they reuse the old station at The Union Plaza.
I doubt very many people would be beating down the door to go to Vegas by rail. Maybe once for the novelty, but not as a regular routine.

I would like to know what the price point would be. Right now regular fare, round-trip LA area-LV flights go for $95-$150, flight time 2-2 1/4 hrs!

 
Titus confessed she never boarded the Desert Wind, “but I would ride it now.”
What an odd way for the paper to say this. The Desert Wind was a slow train that only ran three

times a week. Why should someone "confess" to not having ridden it? Other than for novelty

purposes, the DW was virtually useless for people wishing to visit Vegas from SoCal. I think it's

perfectly reasonable to have not ridden that train yet still be advocating for modern, reliable

service in the present.
 
Titus confessed she never boarded the Desert Wind, “but I would ride it now.”
What an odd way for the paper to say this. The Desert Wind was a slow train that only ran three

times a week. Why should someone "confess" to not having ridden it? Other than for novelty

purposes, the DW was virtually useless for people wishing to visit Vegas from SoCal. I think it's

perfectly reasonable to have not ridden that train yet still be advocating for modern, reliable

service in the present.
It only ran 3 days a week towards the end in the mid 90s under the infamous Mercer cuts where almost all the long distance trains were reduced to less than daily, including the Coast Starlight (5x week) and California Zephyr (4x week, IIRC). Throughout most of its life, the Desert Wind was a daily train.

I rode the Desert Wind quite frequently and while it was not usually a long train, its load factors were pretty good.
 
It seems to me, she isn't talking about putting back the Desert Wind, but just resurrecting a service between Las Vegas and California (she doesn't even specifically call it Los Angeles, so let's not jump to conclusions). In this form, it would basically be a state-supported corridor service. Something like the Heartland Flyer maybe. So if Nevada and California can pony up the cash, I don't think the House or anybody else in Washington should have anything to say about it.
Good point Cirdan.

I-15 between LA and LV is a nightmare on weekends, I'm sure many people would prefer the train. Especially if they reuse the old station at The Union Plaza.
It's been years since I made that drive but even in a brand new car it was hard to keep the AC going strong due to the stifling heat and lack of airflow caused by the clogged traffic. It is my belief that the market is there and would be well served were it not for the current owner's ability to demand more than a new route is likely to recover during the startup phase. Thus we are forced to depend on the government to subsidize the owner.

AmtrakLimited.com. We're willing to bash everything because we're too cool to admit we care about anything.
Not bashing, just a statement of reality. A second term Congresswoman trying to get a study funded translates to a return of the Desert Wind about as much as me getting up and walking down the hallway means I'm going to run a marathon tomorrow morning. I'd love to see this train (or other LA-Vegas service) up and running. But I'm not going to get excited about Yet Another Study.
It's one thing to calmly react to mildly positive news of limited impact. It's another thing to compulsively overreact and potentially poison any further discussion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, if Nevada and California have to fund it then they will need to create a business case document for it, which would be tantamount to doing a small study, whether we like it or not. Nobody is going to just wake up one morning and be ready to commit to an ongoing funding of an operation without some documentation supporting such. If such mundane realities do not excite someone, c'est la vie.
 
All Aboard Florida:

Using their own ROW and building more. Paid for by the company, paid back by the riders.

X-Train, Z-Train, Desert Wind, etc:

Using a private ROW that really isn't interested in loaning out their rail. Paid for by shareholders to a bunch of folks that have nothing to show for it other than their own new Ferrari. Amtrak paid for by everyone in America, and a bit of it paid back by the riders.
 
If this were either (or both) of the states considering a study, that would be something to be interested in.

I just don't see Congress doing anything about a service they have no desire to fund. In the unlikely event that they do, it'll end up like the Congressionally-mandated study into the Sunset East. One more stack of paper and nary a train running on the horizon.

It's one thing to calmly react to mildly positive news of limited impact. It's another thing to compulsively overreact and potentially poison any further discussion.
There was nothing that wasn't calm about my reply. Stating the truth isn't overreaction, it is what it is. It doesn't seem to have poisoned any of the discussion here, so I guess we're safe.
 
Well, if Nevada and California have to fund it then they will need to create a business case document for it, which would be tantamount to doing a small study, whether we like it or not.
I can't think of a single reason for California to fund a feasibility study for a railroad to Vegas, let alone fund a rail link to California. It's not like Las Vegas throwing their gambling take toward other states. Hell, California (San Bernardino County) will not fix a 10mi. stretch of Old River Road, a 2-lane county road that links the casinos in Laughlin, NV. with I-40 in Needles, Ca.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh sure. I am almost certain that there will be no resurrection of the Desert Wind, and I would also be quite surprised if any high speed service ever materializes between LAX basin and Las Vegas. But if either of those two move forward by some miracle, they will require further paperwork before a shovel will go into the ground.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If this were either (or both) of the states considering a study, that would be something to be interested in.

I just don't see Congress doing anything about a service they have no desire to fund. In the unlikely event that they do, it'll end up like the Congressionally-mandated study into the Sunset East. One more stack of paper and nary a train running on the horizon.
The 2007 study funded by Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada is still available on-line: Las Vegas to Los Angeles Rail Corridor Improvement Feasibility Study (6 MB PDF, 213 pages). That study is pretty extensive with a lot of data on travel traffic between SoCal and Las Vegas, The study even included projected travel times using Talgos and a JetTrain.

If Nevada was interested in making a case for a state subsidized corridor service, all they really would have to do is update the 2007 study and focus the cost and ridership projections on a starter once a day service with achievable upgrades, not shoot for the moon upgrades. X-Train clearly used the 2007 study as the basis for their plans.

One key consideration in reading the 2007 study is that some of the major recommended improvements for better trip times on the Southern California have been completed or are being done, most notably, the flyover at Colton Crossing. X-Train reached an agreement with UP to pay for, IIRC, about $30 million in track upgrades between Barstow and Vegas so X-Train could run their passenger train.

So the cost to NV of starting a once a day service, then expanding to 2 a day, would likely not be that large. But since Senator Reid and others are holding out for a true HSR service to be built by a private company, the idea of spending state and city funds for a conventional train are getting undercut. But if there is any lesson to be drawn from the past few years from the opposition to HSR, is that it is very difficult to make a public case to jump from no passenger train service at all to HSR. CA would not be starting construction on CAHSR if it were not for the San Joaquin, Surfliner, Capitol Corridor services showing that people do take trains in CA. If Reid and Xpress West want to make a case for a HSR corridor to Vegas, they should get behind starting up a conventional service as the first step.
 
But since Senator Reid and others are holding out for a true HSR service to be built by a private company,
I'm pretty sure that if there was genuinely a business case in which a private company (such as XpressWest) could build such a line without any government assistance and return a meaningful profit, that the line would already be under construction by now.

Anybody ignoring all other solutions in expectation of that golden egg is probably delusional.
 
I would also be quite surprised if any high speed service ever materializes between LAX basin and Las Vegas.
I think it probably will happen. The casino owners are surprisingly forward-looking; they're worried about Las Vegas drying up and blowing away; a rail connection is one way to avoid that; and they have enough clout to get the NV state government on board. They'll keep trying until they get it.
 
The Amtrak Desert Wind made four station stops in California before arriving at Las Vegas It then made more stops and went on to connect with the California Zephyr. Later trains terminated at Ogden but I believe that earlier trains hooked on to the Zephyr and went on to CUS. I believe that Amtrak would restore this route if they could find the funding. The most likely scenario is that it will become a corridor train in the future..
 
The Amtrak Desert Wind made four station stops in California before arriving at Las Vegas It then made more stops and went on to connect with the California Zephyr. Later trains terminated at Ogden but I believe that earlier trains hooked on to the Zephyr and went on to CUS. I believe that Amtrak would restore this route if they could find the funding. The most likely scenario is that it will become a corridor train in the future..
The original Desert Wind was an LAX - Ogden train, with cross platform connection to the San Francisco Zephyr which then ran through Ogden with connection to Salt Lake City provided by the Desert Wind!

I believe the actual car transfer came only after the trains got converted to Hi-Level/Superliner.

I had done both the cross platform transfer at Ogden and the through car later.
 
As usual any plan always goes back to lack of equipment. There are many routes that need (more) service. But getting the funds to build equipment appears to be not solvable. The politicians only answer to their big contributors not the voters. We have no idea who will be in government by 2015 much less the more important 2017.

According to other posters the demand is going to be mainly on weekends. One possible solution for just LAX - LAS would be the new bi-levels being bought as an add on to the order. To cover demand might require 20 cars ( including spares ) . Furnish them for LD travelers. Use them during the week on different SOCAL routes to tease the commuters.

If service all the way to SLC then maybe they can get more use ?
 
But since Senator Reid and others are holding out for a true HSR service to be built by a private company,
I'm pretty sure that if there was genuinely a business case in which a private company (such as XpressWest) could build such a line without any government assistance and return a meaningful profit, that the line would already be under construction by now.

Anybody ignoring all other solutions in expectation of that golden egg is probably delusional.
What is even more delusional is the expectation that California will be willing to put money into a project that serves primarily to haul California money into Nevada.
 
But since Senator Reid and others are holding out for a true HSR service to be built by a private company,
I'm pretty sure that if there was genuinely a business case in which a private company (such as XpressWest) could build such a line without any government assistance and return a meaningful profit, that the line would already be under construction by now.
Anybody ignoring all other solutions in expectation of that golden egg is probably delusional.
What is even more delusional is the expectation that California will be willing to put money into a project that serves primarily to haul California money into Nevada.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone has lost money betting on the incompetence of CAHSRA.

On the topic of the Desert Wind: It really didn't attract overly many CA riders to Vegas and the later studies didn't show it to be an overly useful corridor as I recall. Let the route stay dead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top