Diners for long-distance day trains?

Considering the Viewliner II order, if the option is exercised, could diners be added to some of the day trains, such as the Adirondack/Maple leaf, Palmetto, Carolinian, and 66/67. Could Amcan IIs converted to Diner Lites be put on these trains, and perhaps even the 13-hour Regionals from NFK/NPN/LYH-BOS? If this isn't possible, could Acela-style meals brought to seats be a solution?

If they ordered enough diners this would be possible.

Amtrak has never stated that they were planning to put diners on these trains. Regardless of the popularity of such service, this service would cause amtrak to lose money.

While it might be possible in the long run for Amtrak to improve its bottom line by adding full-service dining cars to trains such as the Palmetto, it is not possible with current dining car procedure, which has a lot of time spent on paperwork and does usually not turn tables efficiently. In order to make dining cars have better bottom-line performance, they would need substantially better turnover. Accordingly, Amtrak has only been putting dining cars on those trains where they are really essential in order to attract customers -- trains where large numbers of passengers are getting both breakfast and another meal. In the medium term, Amtrak might be able to improve turnover through changes in procedure, and this has been talked about repeatedly, but for some reason has not been implemented. (Sigh.)

Amtrak might, in the near term, be able to have Acela-style meals brought to seats, in a sufficiently efficient fashion to make an improvement to the bottom line. But this has also not been proposed by anyone in Amtrak as far as I know.

Diners cost too much to run. The European trains no longer use them either. They just have a 'bistro' car that serves sandwiches, drinks and snacks. It can be manned by a single person.

I agree, the Bistro Car on the Cascades is really cool and serves what is required and items are more upscale. I do not mind paying 30 bucks on long distance, but a bit much for 5-8 hours.

henryj said:

Diners cost too much to run. The European trains no longer use them either. They just have a 'bistro' car that serves sandwiches, drinks and snacks. It can be manned by a single person.

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Not true about European diners. There are fewer than there used to be but still quite a few, and their number is actually increasing in some places.

The Carolinian and the Palmetto wouldn't support a diner. The passenger mix on those trains is quite different from what you see on the overnight trains, and there are a lot of on/off's en route whose timing wouldn't fit the rigid schedule of a diner.

xyzzy said:

The Carolinian and the Palmetto wouldn't support a diner. The passenger mix on those trains is quite different from what you see on the overnight trains, and there are a lot of on/off's en route whose timing wouldn't fit the rigid schedule of a diner.

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True about the Carolinian -- I'm not so sure about the Palmetto. More to the point, the diners *shouldn't have the rigid schedule* -- if the paperwork burden can be alleviated and they can be switched to all-day service, they might be a lot more practical. It ought to be like a restaurant on wheels, and right now there are some odd ways in which it isn't.

If anything the Palmetto ridership is economically downscale from the Carolinian. On-off is less, however, south of Rocky Mount.

Serving hours in Amtrak diners are constrained by union agreements, I believe. Cannot have people on duty from 6 am until 8 pm, unless you add workers (digs a deeper financial hole for the diners) or spread their hours out during the day (reduces staff during peak hours when most people want to eat).

Idea = non-starter.

A quick diner style diner (getting a fresh burger or burrito) and an emphasis on bar service has the potential to make financial sense, but not the traditional sit down service Amtrak diners currently provide. As for crew, switch them out at Richmond on the Palmetto and Carolinian.

Paulus said:

A quick diner style diner (getting a fresh burger or burrito) and an emphasis on bar service has the potential to make financial sense, but not the traditional sit down service Amtrak diners currently provide. As for crew, switch them out at Richmond on the Palmetto and Carolinian.

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Agree! As a frequent Palmetto passenger, it is definitely not a sit down diner crowd. Acela type 1st class at your seat food service (at least south of Wash.) would be good and a redesigned bistro cafe lounge with better food (like Downeaster/ cascade) would help revenue. Of course this would require the OBS crew to actually enter the BC car.

"True" diners on day LD's is probably not gonna work, for a multitude of reasons. What i think Amtrak needs is something like was posted above, a "Bistro Car".

Staffed by two people, one to take orders and work the Bistro, one to prepare the food and drinks (and other misc). So you say, why two people? If there is only one staffer, then what you offer is severely limited, pretty much what you have on the AmCafes now.

There is a ton ways that two staffers could create kick-ass food offerings, Hell, we did it on the renovated lounge cars that were on the old Broadway Limited when Amtrak was trying to ramp up service, and offer an alternative to the full diner. We had steam tables and all that, but today, one could get by with much easier prep, almost a la Chipotle, or any other Quick Casual establishment.

Perhaps the 2nd staffer would work the coach too, when not at "designated meal times".............. it could happen.......

frequent traveller said:

henryj said:

Diners cost too much to run. The European trains no longer use them either. They just have a 'bistro' car that serves sandwiches, drinks and snacks. It can be manned by a single person.

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Not true about European diners. There are fewer than there used to be but still quite a few, and their number is actually increasing in some places.

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Hope just seems to spring eternal on here. Diners are disappearing everywhere and especially in Europe as more and more routes become high speed. Even the overnights are disappearing and they don't carry diners nor do any of.the regionals.

I think eventually Diners as we know them today will cease to exist. It is not a question of if. It is just a question of when and through how many cuts of what sort. That is not to say that food service will disappear. Not at all. All it means is that the the modes of delivering the food will be different and less labor intensive.

I agree JIS, diners as we know them, will be gone "sooner rather than later". So as "sucky" as they can be now, enjoy the fact that at least you don't have to wait in line, order your food, and walk it back to your chair, table, or room.

What single-ride long distance trains in Europe that are longer than 12 hours don't have a diner? >24 hours?

These trains already offer a cafe car. They just need to be stocked better and open the whole duration of the ride.

Now, would be a good time to decide long range plans for diner/cafe/lounge of LD trains- at least in the east - and modify the new viewliner diners accordingly.

There is already a plan. Overnight trains have Diners and day trains don't. Daytime trains have Cafe/Food Service cars with walk up counter and table or other lounge type seating. Takes a single staff to operate. Don't see any reason to change that and ruin the cost recovery ratio of daytime trains in the process. The core Viewliner Diner could be used as the abse for designing a single level lounge car, but has little to do with food service per se, though it would likely provide a food purchase facility like in the current single level Cafe cars.

If the train can support some sort of First Class Service a la Acela, then food service at seat would be the way to go in that car equipped with its own small galley like on the Acelas. The Acelas were actually designed to also have a food provided at ones seat upscale Business Class service again served from a galley in the car. However, that higher level BC service never materialized. Anyway, none of these require any change to the Viewliner Diner design. They require making provisions in the next gen First Class and possibly Business Class cars.

VentureForth said:

What single-ride long distance trains in Europe that are longer than 12 hours don't have a diner? >24 hours?

These trains already offer a cafe car. They just need to be stocked better and open the whole duration of the ride.

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I tell you what Venture Forth. You order a copy of the European Rail Timetable and peruse the hundreds of trains listed in there and tell us how many have full diners and do a year to year comparison. I just don't have the time nor do I care. I have been there and ridden the European trains and the only diner I saw was on the Warsaw to Berlin train in Poland and the power was out in the car. It had a single attendant and we almost didn't get anything to eat before arriving in Berlin. Typical Poland. One of the Brits put it this way. Nothing happens until the last minute. The high speed trains have a Bistro car. The Regionals have nothing. The very few LD trains left in Europe may still have diners. But most of the nightline trains now just serve you in your compartment if they serve you at all. Good luck with you assigned project.

henryj said:

I just don't have the time nor do I care.

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I'm utterly shocked that Henry is making more wild claims and then failing to back them up with facts when requested.

I'll do your diner research for you right after you provide a detailed, workable plan for reducing Amtrak's "bloated" overhead and post your spreadsheets full of made up numbers.

henryj said:

VentureForth said:

What single-ride long distance trains in Europe that are longer than 12 hours don't have a diner? >24 hours?

These trains already offer a cafe car. They just need to be stocked better and open the whole duration of the ride.

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I tell you what Venture Forth. You order a copy of the European Rail Timetable and peruse the hundreds of trains listed in there and tell us how many have full diners and do a year to year comparison. I just don't have the time nor do I care. I have been there and ridden the European trains and the only diner I saw was on the Warsaw to Berlin train in Poland and the power was out in the car. It had a single attendant and we almost didn't get anything to eat before arriving in Berlin. Typical Poland. One of the Brits put it this way. Nothing happens until the last minute. The high speed trains have a Bistro car. The Regionals have nothing. The very few LD trains left in Europe may still have diners. But most of the nightline trains now just serve you in your compartment if they serve you at all. Good luck with you assigned project.

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Dude. I just asked a question. I don't know and don't have the time or desire to go chasing waterfalls. You made the claim, so I thought you may have some readily available answers.

My point is that ALL of our long distance trains - including day trains - have food service. If not a Diner AND Cafe, at least a Cafe. The Shinkansen got rid of its Diner/Buffet car back in the 90s because trip time between Tokyo and Osaka was reduced so much that it didn't make sense any more and they decided that more revenue could be had selling seats in that one of 16 coaches than offering food. The Shinkansen doesn't have a bistro car or diner any more. But they offer trolley service of nice packed lunches and drinks brought to your seat. Heck - even Green Car class doesn't offer any free food. But again, 2 1/2 hours betweeen Tokyo and Osaka (or 5 hours all the way to Hakata), the demand is for seats, not food. That's all I know from experience. What I don't know is Europe.

So I asked.

As someone who just rode the full Palmetto trip from NYC-SAV, I definitely would have mad use of a dining car. However I know that I'm in the minority as most people are on the train for much less then the full 15 hours, and even if they were only a few of the passengers would probably want to shell out the price.

I like to patronize the diner, too, even if as an out-of-pocket coach passenger. But I don't think I would make a mad use of the dining car.

VentureForth said:

I like to patronize the diner, too, even if as an out-of-pocket coach passenger. But I don't think I would make a mad use of the dining car.

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Whoops! That should have been made. Typing on a mobile always seems to have one or two words pass my notice wrongly spelled

jis said:

I think eventually Diners as we know them today will cease to exist.

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Actually, I think that's very unlikely. Even if the mode of delivering the food changes (which it certainly may) I think the customer-facing experience of a "sit down restaurant" in a moving train is going to stay around. It's only appropriate on trains which run for quite a large number of hours, which means that the trains where it's done are probably going to change. But I don't see the diners disappearing from the Trans-Siberian route in my lifetime.