Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline

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CHamilton

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Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline
Airline passengers have come to expect a tiny escape from the confined space of today's packed planes: the ability to recline their seat a few inches. When one passenger was denied that bit of personal space Sunday, it led to a heated argument and the unscheduled landing of their plane, just halfway to its destination.
The fight started on a United Airlines flight because one passenger was using the Knee Defender, a $21.95 gadget that attaches to a passenger's tray table and prevents the person in front of them from reclining.

The Federal Aviation Administration leaves it up to individual airlines to set rules about the device. United Airlines said it prohibits use of the device, like all major U.S. airlines. Spirit Airlines and Allegiant Air take the reclining mechanisms out of their seats, leaving them permanently upright.

The dispute on United Flight 1462 from Newark, New Jersey to Denver escalated to the point where the airline decided to divert to Chicago's O'Hare International Airport, according to Transportation Security Administration spokesman Ross Feinstein.

Chicago Police and TSA officers met the flight, spoke to the passengers -- a man and a woman, both 48 -- and "deemed it a customer service issue," Feinstein said. The TSA would not name the passengers.

The plane then continued to Denver without them, arriving 1 hour and 38 minutes late, according to the airline's website.
 
A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused.
Entitled jerk. :angry:

I'm not saying the woman was in her right to throw a cup of water at him, but come on, people. Now some passengers are probably missing their connections because one guy is selfish and refuses to play by the airline's rules and one woman can't control her temper?

Ugh.

I hope UA bans him for refusing to obey an FA's orders. I'm on the fence about the woman. (Not that I think it was okay to do what she did, but she didn't resist an FA like he did.)
 
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Sounds like that gadget should be banned from the cabins. And anyone that does get into an altercation in flight should be permanently placed on TSA's "No-Fly List"......

There is no room for "air-rage" on an airliner.....
 
They were also both sitting in United Economy Plus Too!

I've gotten 'free' upgrades to it a few times (booking late on full planes) and it definitely makes a big difference in terms of legroom. I'd consider paying for it on a really long flight.
 
A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused.
Entitled jerk. :angry:

I'm not saying the woman was in her right to throw a cup of water at him, but come on, people. Now some passengers are probably missing their connections because one guy is selfish and refuses to play by the airline's rules and one woman can't control her temper?

Ugh.

I hope UA bans him for refusing to obey an FA's orders. I'm on the fence about the woman. (Not that I think it was okay to do what she did, but she didn't resist an FA like he did.)
Ban them both. In reality he shouldn't have used the knee defender and should have removed it when instructed to by the crew. While I love the premise of the knee defender the best course of action is to let the flight crew deal with the issue and complain to customer service once on the ground. Committing a battery by throwing water at someone isn't the answer and she should be banned accordingly as it was the water throwing that resulted in the diversion (per the article).

The true blame is on both the airlines for cramming too many seats into coach, and the inconsiderate folks who inhabit said seats. I say this having almost had a laptop snapped in half while working on it by someone who shot the seat back without so much as a word which would have given me a chance to rearrange things. Nowadays I don't even try to use a laptop on a plane due to the cramped space and just use an ipad instead to work or whatever.

Of course the true solution is either install seats with no recline like Spirit or Allegiant or take a couple of rows out and give the sardines some space.
 
I fly frequently - mostly on American - and I'd be happy to see the majors get rid of seatback recline just like Spirit and Allegiant have. The notion of reclining seats makes no sense when seat pitch is less than 35-36 inches. No domestic airline has a seat pitch like that anymore except in first class, and even the first class sets are coming down to 37-38.
 
Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
 
I think a little incline should be allowed. Not everyone is comfortable sitting "straight up". But, they should restrict how much they recline so that the recline does not impede on the person behind the seat.
 
I think a little incline should be allowed. Not everyone is comfortable sitting "straight up". But, they should restrict how much they recline so that the recline does not impede on the person behind the seat.
I'm a taller guy and the way airline rows have been setup these days my knees are already pushing against the seat in front of me before it is reclined even the slightest amount. When the person in front of me forces their seat to recline anyway it's physically painful to me. I'm not trying to be dramatic here; it's genuinely painful and cannot be rectified until they willingly move their seat back. Over the course of hundreds of flights I've never once seen even a single passenger look back before shoving their seat into my knees and it often takes multiple requests to get them to move it back again. The knee defender is a real product serving a real purpose. I think the airlines don't like it because it draws attention to the undesirable nature of the modern flying. In general I don't bother reclining my seat on most flights because the amount of recline is borderline useless while being potentially disastrous for the person behind me. Whenever I do recline I make an effort to look back and make sure I'm not creating problem for the person behind me.
 
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Whenever I do recline I make an effort to look back and make sure I'm not creating problem for the person behind me.
Ditto. I also hold the back of the seat (behind my head) with one hand while pushing the button with the other. That helps me keep control of it so it doesn't slam back, even if it's just an inch or two. Also, I never recline on an airplane if the person behind me appears taller than 5'6".

I also do this on Amtrak. Even though there's more leg room, I only recline about an inch or two (on the regionals) if the person behind me is tall. If they're about my height or shorter, I'll recline a bit more, but I still hold the seat so it doesn't slam back. I don't want stuff to go flying off their tray.

It comes down to common courtesy, which is so rare these days. :angry:
 
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Another aspect is that while seat pitch has decreased, load factors have increased. Used to be that if you didn't like your seat for whatever reason, there was always an empty row in the back -- unless you were flying on Monday morning, Friday afternoon, or a holiday weekend. Now with average load factor in the 70s or 80s, it's difficult to move around in-flight.
 
I don't recline my seat at all. The flights I generally take usually aren't much over two hours in length and I can endure that long. Plus though I don't have as much common courtesy as I should I do try to think of those sitting behind me.
 
I rarely fly (only because of finances/time), but when I have, I don't recall ever reclining anyway. Usually my nose is glued to the window (except that one time I was only able to get a middle seat :( because I had to wait till the "last minute" to book the flight). On my way home on that trip, I had a middle seat initially, but was able to change seats at the gate. She warned me it could not recline due to the bulk head (last row on the plane), and I said that was fine because I'd be looking out the window the whole time.
 
I don't recline my seat at all. The flights I generally take usually aren't much over two hours in length and I can endure that long. Plus though I don't have as much common courtesy as I should I do try to think of those sitting behind me.
True. I only recline on flights approaching four hours, and even then, it's just an inch or so to help relieve the pressure on my back and legs.
 
I'm not looking forward to long flights to/from San Jose in the coming months/years. Hopefully I'll work in some good (time/location/costs) layovers to break up the trip. Or maybe incorporate a train part the way (preferably east bound).
 
There are some people who push their seat into full recline when barely airborne, then need a personal reminder (or two) from the flight attendant to return the seat upright prior to landing. Invariably, I'm behind one of those clowns. They are typically the same people who have no clue how security works and holds up the line, then has no clue what zone boarding is all about and tries to board in Zone 1 with a Zone 4 BP.

During the flight, if I have to get up to use the facilities, I make a point of accidentally on purpose giving their seatback a nice, firm bump on the way out, and then again upon my return. If they are napping at the time, even better. It's a minor revenge, but satisfying none the less.
 
Like others here, I rarely recline my seat (not counting red-eyes, for which I believe the expectations are different).

That said, I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space.

I have paid for it. The person in front of me is entitled to do the same, as is the person behind me. By using my seat

in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else. And frankly, anyone flying coach who

decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.

Frankly I'm shocked that frequent travelers such as those on this forum are resentful that a paying customer decides

to use an amenity to which he or she is entitled. Am I to ask permission to use the lav? The reading lamp? The IFE?

All of those potentially infringe on others.

To the situation described in the OP...I'm with those who say both travelers should be punished/banned. Neither's

actions were remotely justifiable.
 
If reclining your seat causes physical pain to someone because you have entered their space that their knees currently occupy, then yes, you are infringing.

This is why some airlines removed the ability to recline. Yes, it is your seat, but it's not your space. Only your seat and the area your legs occupy is your personal space.

To me, it's akin to opening a car door into a parking space and hitting someone else's car. You have to be careful and make sure you aren't going to "collide" with the other passenger when you move your seat in such a manner.
 
If reclining your seat causes physical pain to someone because you have entered their space that their knees currently occupy, then yes, you are infringing.

This is why some airlines removed the ability to recline. Yes, it is your seat, but it's not your space. Only your seat and the area your legs occupy is your personal space.

To me, it's akin to opening a car door into a parking space and hitting someone else's car. You have to be careful and make sure you aren't going to "collide" with the other passenger when you move your seat in such a manner.
Obviously we don't agree on this. :)

But--honest question here--where do you come up with the definition of what constitutes your personal space? The airline does not define it

that way. The airline allows passengers to recline their seat unless instructed otherwise by a crew member (i.e. for take-off and landing, and

during meal service on the rare flight that still offers it). Your definition is simply not shared by the carriers that offer reclining seats.

So by reclining my seat (again, something I rarely do on daytime flights) I am simply using an amenity of the aircraft which I am entitled to use. Why do others insist on having me ask permission to use such an amenity?

As you say, there are airlines that don't offer the amenity of reclining seats and if I were to fly them, I would not insist on that amenity, in the

same way that I do not insist on free liquor in coach or priority boarding, etc.
 
Okay, I'm a frequent flyer, and I usually recline. Much of the time, I can get an Economy Plus/Main Cabin Extra/Economy Comfort so it's not an issue to recline. But I will glance back and see if the person behind me "reacts" and just do it slowly. I've only had one guy literally push my seat back up with his knees or arms. I was super tired and the flight was leaving around midnight, and really wanted sleep. We came to a compromise and I reclined an inch or two. For me, most seats are too straight up. I've only sat on an Allegiant plane once, and their seats are built with a slight recline already. I usually don't mind if the person in front of me reclines. I just put my knees at the hinge point anyway, and after takeoff I'll put my carryon bag behind my feet so I can stretch my feet under the seat in front, and I'm quite comfortable. For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!
 
For me, when I have the option, I'd rather have the seat next to me empty rather than the leg room. I'd sit in the very back for that!
Ditto. My inseam is only 30", so I never have issues with the leg room. (I put my carry-on in the bin.)

Even though I can fit in one seat now, I still buy a second one if I can afford it, simply to have that buffer zone. Plus, I tell the person on the aisle to feel free to use the empty seat for their coat/magazine/phone/whatever as well. Instant friend. :)
 
Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
Well, technically, it is a battery. 'Battery was defined at common law as "any unlawful touching of the person of another by the aggressor himself, or by a substance put in motion by him."' This is the most used common definition. On the other hand, it is officers discretion in many places.
 
Now I know why I don't fly- I doubt I'd fit. And please. Throwing water on somebody is an insult, but it hardly constitutes a battery.
It is a battery under both the common law (tort) definition and the penal code definition in I'm sure pretty much every jurisdiction. This is the California Penal Code definition of battery:

242. A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.
 
Like others here, I rarely recline my seat (not counting red-eyes, for which I believe the expectations are different).

That said, I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space.

I have paid for it. The person in front of me is entitled to do the same, as is the person behind me. By using my seat

in the manner in which it is designed, I am not infringing upon anyone else. And frankly, anyone flying coach who

decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.

Frankly I'm shocked that frequent travelers such as those on this forum are resentful that a paying customer decides

to use an amenity to which he or she is entitled. Am I to ask permission to use the lav? The reading lamp? The IFE?

All of those potentially infringe on others.
The problem comes if you damaged someone's laptop or other expensive electronic device because you couldn't at the bare minimum take a look back or say something to the guy behind you to give them a warning and time to reposition or put their device away.
 
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