Sleeper without meals?

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Dan O

Dan O

Conductor
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
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1,168
Location
So Calif
Gone a week so may have missed something if recently posted. I was on the Sunset limited and a passenger mentioned to me that she understood that meals were no longer going to be included for sleepers. I thought she probably was full of baloney until the dining car attendant jumped in and said that he had heard the same too and there could be something to it. Is this complete baloney, like the extension of the Sunset Limited to Florida, somewhat plausible or actually possible? I apologize if this topic has recently been addressed.

Thanks,

Dan
 
I haven't heard anything credible that supports that notion. Of course, I'm sure that members of Congress would like it to be that way, but Amtrak must realize that an elimination of included meals would be the death knell of the LD trains. I almost certainly would stop riding them, if meals were cut out but the sleeping car fares remained the same.
 
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At present it falls in the same category as Sunset Limited to Florida.

I am almost certain that not including food in Sleeper fares will be the first step in the direction of eliminating Dining Cars. That is the way they were headed and food was added to Sleeper fares to rescue them from oblivion back in the Reagan days (Complementary meals started in 1985 April timetable or thereabouts).
 
I saw a post on Trainorders a few months ago on the same subject. The OP had written to the fellow in charge of Amtrak operations and gotten a reply which he posted. The Amtrak operations person specifically said there were no plans to have sleeping car passengers pay for their meals.
 
It would seem to me that Amtrak is responding to previous attacks and trying to head off additional attacks by reducing costs related to on-board dining. If that is true then I wonder how Amtrak will manage to reduce dining related costs enough to pacify the likes of Mica and Shuster without removing free meals from sleeper tickets. Even if Amtrak were to start charging for all meals regardless of class, and even if they didn't suffer a single lost passenger as a result, I'm not sure that such changes alone would be enough to avoid another round of attacks. When I've listened to what Mica and company have said in the past it seems like the only sure way to get them off Amtrak's back is to privatize the NEC and dump the funding for LD routes directly on the states through which they pass.
 
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Eliminating dining cars remains a dumb idea; I've puzzled through it and I simply can't see an alternative way to provide the food service which is demanded on long runs. (Unless Amtrak somehow manages to get the host railroads to run the trains on time, which would allow for a bunch of options.)
 
neroden said:
Eliminating dining cars remains a dumb idea; I've puzzled through it and I simply can't see an alternative way to provide the food service which is demanded on long runs. (Unless Amtrak somehow manages to get the host railroads to run the trains on time, which would allow for a bunch of options.)
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Harvey Houses come to mind! :p
 
I don't travel long distance trains all that often but it seemed like the vast majority of folks in the dining car were from sleepers. If half of those people decided to skip a meal a day and only pay for 2 meals or even just one, wouldn't that make dining cars really inefficient?

Dan
 
Dan O said:
I don't travel long distance trains all that often but it seemed like the vast majority of folks in the dining car were from sleepers. If half of those people decided to skip a meal a day and only pay for 2 meals or even just one, wouldn't that make dining cars really inefficient?

Dan
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Probably. I already skip the first, and last meals of most trips, preferring to eat before boarding or after getting to the destination.
 
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I believe a new approach is needed, one based on international overseas flights. Initially this could be tried on the EC trains. There would be 3 entrees for breakfast/lunch/dinner. All meals would be pre-prepared and then reheated. Passengers would come in, be seated and their orders taken. Beverages would be served and then the entree. The key would be that the entree would all be on one plate...salad/roll/entree/desert (along w/utensils, condiments, etc.) The server would only need to come to the table twice...serving the beverage and then the entree. Service could be faster, and a 2 or 3 person crew could handle the serving responsibilities timely. The cost of the meal would be included in the fare for sleeping car passengers, but coach passengers would have to pay. Ideally more passengers could be served in the same amount of time as under the current model.

As far as quality, the food may not be as good, but foodservice has advanced to the point that most passengers would find it OK. Amtrak would have to figure out how and where to preprepare and cook the meals. Don't know how this is done on overseas flights, but that would be the model. I know the airlines used to use Skychefs but given the reduction in meals on domestic flights I don't know what the status of this company is. Inventory on the diners would be reduced, since everything would come to Amtrak ready to serve...just load the meals up and then reheat.

I know this may be similar as to what happened in the early 1980's, but I believe it is an idea Amtrak should cost out, and if the numbers look good, experiment with it and see what the results are.
 
Dan O said:
I don't travel long distance trains all that often but it seemed like the vast majority of folks in the dining car were from sleepers. If half of those people decided to skip a meal a day and only pay for 2 meals or even just one, wouldn't that make dining cars really inefficient?

Dan
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Yes, that was one of the reasons they included the meals in the sleeper fare, so money for all meals went to the food service regardless of how many meals were consumed. When they started including the meals, the accomodation charges went up by almost exactly the price of meals for 2 people for all meal periods that would be covered between the ticketed points. Whether there was only person in the room, or you didn't eat all the meals, the money still credited to food & beverage.
 
When I choose to fly First/Business Class, I expect on a long distance flight to be properly wined and dined and have more room and better service. That service is part of the price that I choose to pay.

On Amtrak, when I travel in a Sleeping Car, I am choosing to have more room, better service, and accepting the dining provisions provided for that train. I am willing to pay extra for the "wineing as I so choose.

Amtrak needs to remember that "First Class Service" requires a service that is above and beyond what Coach/Economy/whatever it may be called is offered. If First Class Service for Sleeping Car guests does not include meals, they must want those guests who wish to use such a service to seek another form of travel.

Hence: the airlines financial condition continues to improve. And, Amtrak's continues to erode.
 
in terms of is it likely that meals and dining cars will be eliminated i think, unfortunately, we need to give some credence of the op's report as to what the attendant on the sl said. i've heard a lot of things from amtrak obs on various trips. some not true but some true. it certainly wouldn't surprise me to see diners disappear.
 
I would think, if Amtrak were to stop the included meals as a portion of the 1st class offerings, they would see a significant downside in their sleeper revenue!!!! I for one, would probably end my Train Travel & go with the quicker & less expensive mode of travel! But, that's just me!
 
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fulham said:
I believe a new approach is needed, one based on international overseas flights. Initially this could be tried on the EC trains. There would be 3 entrees for breakfast/lunch/dinner. All meals would be pre-prepared and then reheated. Passengers would come in, be seated and their orders taken. Beverages would be served and then the entree. The key would be that the entree would all be on one plate...salad/roll/entree/desert (along w/utensils, condiments, etc.) The server would only need to come to the table twice...serving the beverage and then the entree. Service could be faster, and a 2 or 3 person crew could handle the serving responsibilities timely. The cost of the meal would be included in the fare for sleeping car passengers, but coach passengers would have to pay. Ideally more passengers could be served in the same amount of time as under the current model.

As far as quality, the food may not be as good, but foodservice has advanced to the point that most passengers would find it OK. Amtrak would have to figure out how and where to preprepare and cook the meals. Don't know how this is done on overseas flights, but that would be the model. I know the airlines used to use Skychefs but given the reduction in meals on domestic flights I don't know what the status of this company is. Inventory on the diners would be reduced, since everything would come to Amtrak ready to serve...just load the meals up and then reheat.

I know this may be similar as to what happened in the early 1980's, but I believe it is an idea Amtrak should cost out, and if the numbers look good, experiment with it and see what the results are.
Click to expand...
This plan doesn't sound appealing to me. The dining car experience is one of the unique and enjoyable things about train travel. I don't want it to be more like international air travel. Sleeper ("first class") fares are expensive and I think it would be counter-productive to downgrade service. This is just my personal opinion, of course.
 
If Amtrak intended to eliminate dining car service, why would they order a bunch of Viewliner diners? No, I think that included meals aren't going anywhere. They are so fundamental to sleeping car travel that a change such as that would destroy the LD train as we know it. I for one would cease riding LD trains altogether. I'm very patient with Amtrak, and am willing to get to my destination more slowly than flying, but a move such as that would mean a loss of my business.

I think that we need to be careful when discussing rumors such as this. Yes, things may seem grim for Amtrak these days, but always talking about negative things, especially ones that haven't been substantiated by any sort of fact, can drive people away from the forum, and may discourage the first-time Amtrak rider who's browsing this forum for information from taking a trip at all.
 
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they would stop riding if they had to pay for the meals. Granted, there isn't much on the Am-menu actually worth paying for, in a sticks and bricks restaurant, but for a captive audience, it's not terrible. The surprising thing to me, is with regularly poor on time performance, regular bustitutions, already significantly higher price than flying, inconsistent service, aging equipment, inconvenient timing, limited destinations, limited connection options, limited destination options for rental cars/transportation, and no more flower vases or cranberry juice, it boggles my mind that a $25 steak is the straw that breaks the camels back for so many. I think I'd just pay, and move on, when I want to take the train. And, frankly, I think so would 99% of people. Limited choices, and all that.
 
crescent2 said:
fulham said:
I believe a new approach is needed, one based on international overseas flights. Initially this could be tried on the EC trains. There would be 3 entrees for breakfast/lunch/dinner. All meals would be pre-prepared and then reheated. Passengers would come in, be seated and their orders taken. Beverages would be served and then the entree. The key would be that the entree would all be on one plate...salad/roll/entree/desert (along w/utensils, condiments, etc.) The server would only need to come to the table twice...serving the beverage and then the entree. Service could be faster, and a 2 or 3 person crew could handle the serving responsibilities timely. The cost of the meal would be included in the fare for sleeping car passengers, but coach passengers would have to pay. Ideally more passengers could be served in the same amount of time as under the current model.

As far as quality, the food may not be as good, but foodservice has advanced to the point that most passengers would find it OK. Amtrak would have to figure out how and where to preprepare and cook the meals. Don't know how this is done on overseas flights, but that would be the model. I know the airlines used to use Skychefs but given the reduction in meals on domestic flights I don't know what the status of this company is. Inventory on the diners would be reduced, since everything would come to Amtrak ready to serve...just load the meals up and then reheat.

I know this may be similar as to what happened in the early 1980's, but I believe it is an idea Amtrak should cost out, and if the numbers look good, experiment with it and see what the results are.
Click to expand...
This plan doesn't sound appealing to me. The dining car experience is one of the unique and enjoyable things about train travel. I don't want it to be more like international air travel. Sleeper ("first class") fares are expensive and I think it would be counter-productive to downgrade service. This is just my personal opinion, of course.
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Switching to serving what amounts to TV diners has been done in the past, and failed miserably. They used to serve meals like that on the City of New Orleans. It wasn't popular and drove many customers away.

The only made to order items these days are the steaks, omelets, scrambled eggs, and pancakes. Everything else is reheated in convection ovens. This is already a less than ideal situation, quality-wise. I can't imagine what further reductions in quality would look like, but I know that they wouldn't be good.

Food service is just another aspect of the LD trains that won't ever be profitable. Even so, dining cars are an essential part of any LD train, and shouldn't be eliminated.

I think that they should try to better market the dining car to coach pax. Add several items to the menu that are lower in cost, and market it as a way for coach pax to have a real sit-down meal without breaking the bank. The high prices for the dinner entrees, while understandable, have the effect of driving many coach pax away from the dining car.

It's a matter of economics. The current price level exceeds the willingness, and quite often the ability of coach pax to pay.
 
Shortline said:
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they would stop riding if they had to pay for the meals. Granted, there isn't much on the Am-menu actually worth paying for, in a sticks and bricks restaurant, but for a captive audience, it's not terrible. The surprising thing to me, is with regularly poor on time performance, regular bustitutions, already significantly higher price than flying, inconsistent service, aging equipment, inconvenient timing, limited destinations, limited connection options, limited destination options for rental cars/transportation, and no more flower vases or cranberry juice, it boggles my mind that a $25 steak is the straw that breaks the camels back for so many. I think I'd just pay, and move on, when I want to take the train. And, frankly, I think so would 99% of people. Limited choices, and all that.
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My main issue would be if they eliminated the included meals, but kept the sleeping car fares the same, or even gradually increased them. We understand that we are paying for our meals whenever we buy a ticket, but we don't want to be charged extra for something that we have already, at least theoretically, paid for.

Something I could see happening is certain items on the menu becoming "premium" items, requiring an up-charge. If you want a steak, you have to pay a few extra bucks. Then again, the last round of menu cuts were so drastic that there aren't enough items left on the menu for this to be viable. They'd have to bring back the Chef's Marketplace Specials to be able to do this.

Obviously, I'm not in favor of such a move, but if it means being able to lessen the pressure from outside parties, so be it.
 
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I don't see the "included" meals going away, at least if common sense prevails. There is already enough padding in the Sleeper price to cover the meals, and it is not like every accomodation is maxed out full and everyone in them an all out Chow Hound. I have seen many Sleeper pax either skip a meal or just order dessert. On the other hand, even if I'm foundered worse than an old Round Hound in the Pound I'll still drag myself to the Diner when the bell rings just to enjoy the experience and get another meal down :)
 
I would not stop traveling on Amtrak if I had to pay for meals, but I would expect a reduction in first class fares or AGR points to offset at least most of the cost. Dinner especially is a little pricey for the quality, but I think the food is good considering the size of the kitchen, storage limitations, etc. Before my husband's health problems, we rode coach on the Crescent (all-day trips ATL-NOL and back) and paid to eat in the dining car. For what sleeper accommodations currently cost, though, meals should be included because the passenger has already paid for them. Hopefully what the OP was told is just a rumor and nothing more.

However, if they eliminated dining car service (which I don't see happening), that might be a different matter. I like to travel light, junk food doesn't satisfy me, and I would not want to have to bring food on even an all-day trip. Plus, where would all those Coleman coolers go?? :huh: Long distance train travel must have some form of food service because of the time involved. And as William pointed out, new dining cars are on order. :)
 
Shortline said:
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they would stop riding if they had to pay for the meals. Granted, there isn't much on the Am-menu actually worth paying for, in a sticks and bricks restaurant, but for a captive audience, it's not terrible. The surprising thing to me, is with regularly poor on time performance, regular bustitutions, already significantly higher price than flying, inconsistent service, aging equipment, inconvenient timing, limited destinations, limited connection options, limited destination options for rental cars/transportation, and no more flower vases or cranberry juice, it boggles my mind that a $25 steak is the straw that breaks the camels back for so many. I think I'd just pay, and move on, when I want to take the train. And, frankly, I think so would 99% of people. Limited choices, and all that.
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I use AGR points for the sleeper and I would continue to ride the trains even if I had to pay for meal service. I wouldn't pay. I'd bring some snacks and try to plan out a ahead where the longer stops are and how far restaurants or even grocery stores might be. For two folks to have the steak dinner would run over $60 with a tip, more if one had a beverage or dessert. I don't think the food is bad but it's not worth $60 to me.
 
It would be very interesting to know how the food is accounted for. As a sleeper passenger, I have to sign off a 4"x14" receipt with my room number on it. Does the diner ONLY get the revenue if my dinner check is signed? Do they REALLY get the 'allocated' 2-people-per-room-regardless-of-occupancy revenue? Does every sleeper ticket more than offset the cost of meals? What if I'm the only sleeper pax in a car?

There is some heavy calculus involved, I'm pretty sure, that would very hard for the average lay person to understand - heck, I don't know if Amtrak understands.
 
I'd happily pay extra for meals - if they were meals that were worth paying for.

I used to like Amtrak food. I find the current food to be barely tolerable - I'd gladly pay an extra $8 for a Chipotle burrito or a Subway sandwich if I was given the choice.

I think a lot of people would not be willing to pay for the food in its current state at its current prices. So, charging for the dining car is a twofold problem - loss of ridership from people who can't won't pay the extra expense, plus probably INCREASED dining expenses from the huge losses they'd incur because so few people would pay for meals in the dining car.
 
Dan O said:
Gone a week so may have missed something if recently posted. I was on the Sunset limited and a passenger mentioned to me that she understood that meals were no longer going to be included for sleepers. I thought she probably was full of baloney until the dining car attendant jumped in and said that he had heard the same too and there could be something to it.
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I was just browsing through the "FY14 Budget, Business Plan, FY15 Budget Justification and FY14-18 Five-Year Financial Plan" and on Page 72 under Ticket Revenue Allocation there is a item "Pilot de-linking of sleeper and meal service. - In Process".

I read that to mean no meals included with the sleeper fare. ???

So, maybe there is something to it. Wonder when and to what scale the pilot would be.

Sure wouldn't be well received if you had already purchased a sleeper with the understanding that meals are included in the fare, just to find out that it's no longer the case.
 
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