Talgo bids to sell WI trainsets to MI

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CHamilton

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There wasn't a whole lot of information from the Northwest NARP meeting today that AUers haven't already heard. But one tidbit: Talgo has responded to the Michigan RFP with a proposal to sell them the Wisconsin trainsets for use on the Wolverine service. Apparently Talgo would like to expand their North American presence beyond the Northwest.
 
Are those the red/white cars or the brown/green cars?

Not that it matters; I'm just curious.

Also, these are the ones that look like something out of Cars, right? :)
 
Are those the red/white cars or the brown/green cars?

Not that it matters; I'm just curious.

Also, these are the ones that look like something out of Cars, right? :)
Red and White
 
RFP = "request for proposal"

Basically, Michigan said, "Hey, Talgo. How much you want for those train sets, eh?"

And then Talgo said, "You can have these Wisconsin train sets for X."
 
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I am going to guess he wants the details of the RFP of which I liked to know what Michigan is seeking as well. :)
 
Yes, sorry, I was wondering what the content of the Michigan RFP was, not the definition of RFP. Particularly given that they have new bilevel equipment (the Midwest bilevels along with IL and MO) or order. It was my understanding that all of the Michigan trains (at least the five currently operated) would be using bilevel equipment in a few years.
 
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Yes, sorry, I was wondering what proposal Michigan is seeking requests for. Particularly given that they have new bilevel equipment (the Midwest bilevels along with IL and MO) or order. It was my understanding that all of the Michigan trains (at least the five currently operated) would be using bilevel equipment in a few years.
Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. :) I thought you were asking what the Michigan RFP was, as in, "Are they a group of railfans?" Like RFP stood for the group name or something.
 
Sadly for Talgo, it does not make sense for anyone outside of the PNW to take those two sets. There is nowhere to maintain them, and setting up a maintenance facility for two sets would be costly. The beauty of the standardized bilevels is that the cars will be common to multiple states. Parts inventory and maintenance will benefit from an economy of scale that two orphan Talgo sets cannot match.
 
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We've talked about this before, and I agree that outside of the Northwest, about the only place it would make sense to use the Talgos would be in California. That would be a reasonable distance from the maintenance base. But California doesn't need two trainsets that don't match anything else they have.

AORTA (the Oregon advocacy group) and AAWA (the Washington group) are both pushing for expanded services on the east sides of their respective states. AAWA wants SEA-SPK via Stampede Pass, and AORTA wants service along the old Pioneer route, or possibly a connection to Boise. Both of these projects would be good uses for the Talgos, but both face significant obstacles: money, stations, the host railroads...

Edit: Of course, if Talgo went to the trouble of producing a bid, they obviously think they have a reasonable solution to the maintenance issue. I guess they could use the Milwaukee factory, since they already have it, or perhaps they've found a facility in Michigan they think they could develop.
 
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Would it be possible to build a Talgo maintenance facility in the Midwest? Lord knows Detroit has its share of displaced auto workers who would be more than qualified to work on trains once they were trained in the various intricacies.

I realize this will cost money; the question is feasibility. Would Talgo be willing to kick in the cost? Perhaps Michigan might consider it as well. Our governor, while anti-union, is very much into job creation.
 
Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.

Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.
 
I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.
 
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Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.

Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.
The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.
 
Thanks fo

Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.

Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.
The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.
Thanks for finding that. And, yes, quite a price for two train sets, when presumably an add-on to the bilevel order would not require anywhere near that level of outlay for additional or expanded maintenance facilties.
 
Actually, there's two other places I can think of where there would be an advantage from their tilt.

The first is out of Atlanta to Birmingham and Chattanooga. As Bill Haithcoat, George Harris and I think Xyzzy will tell you, those routes are as curvy as all else. Of course, there are so many other issues with regional services to those two cities that simply having two tilting trainsets doesn't solve.

The second I might could see is the Pennsylvanian. I'm not as familiar with this route...and as I was typing this I was suddenly reminded about the high platform issue, the Talgos are low (actually medium?) platform cars and a recent post on another forum indicated that Talgo didn't have interest in high level platform vehicles so never mind.
 
It seems really weird to me that Michigan has an RFP for railcars considering they were a member of the Midwest coalition of states (along with Illinois and Missouri) that recently ordered 88 new third generation bi-level intercity cars. Maybe this RFP is just a formality as the state looks to buy more bi-level cars.

I've enjoyed riding the Talgo's up here in the Pacific Northwest... but they're poor fit for most places.

Asking a state to spending 5.8 million a year on maintenance (plus having to donate the space for a facility) is okay when there's no other passenger rail maintenance facilities nearby. But when Amtrak's Chicago maintenance facility is at one end of your line (like is the case for the Hiawatha, the Blue Water, the Pere Marquette and the Wolverine) it really doesn't make since to set up another maintenance facility for just two trainsets.
 
Can anyone find the RFP? I searched the MDOT website and cannot find anything about it. While I think it would be great to get the Talgos for MI, It doesn't really make sense.

Also, aren't the those train sets basically stuck there until after the legal proceedings between Talgo & WI are finished?

peter
 
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I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.
How on earth would you GET to Traverse City by rail, on a passenger train?
 
Here's a brilliant idea! That former railroad ferry from Michigan to Wisconsin still had tracks on its car deck when I it in the 90s. Just shove those Talgos on there and send them to Milwaukee! ( Does anyone appreciate my sophisticated humor?)
 
Can anyone find the RFP? I searched the MDOT website and cannot find anything about it. While I think it would be great to get the Talgos for MI, It doesn't really make sense.

Also, aren't the those train sets basically stuck there until after the legal proceedings between Talgo & WI are finished?

peter
You're right. I would think those train sets aren't going anyway until the lawsuits are settled.
 
I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.
How on earth would you GET to Traverse City by rail, on a passenger train?
There are tracks still in place. They would need an awful lot of work to support a passenger train service, however. The Traverse City idea got a lot of support in another topic area on this board.
 
Nor do I see Talgos ever used for the Pennsylvanian. Other high platform active tilting sets, possible, but low floor Talgos very very unlikely.

And any state financed service in Georgia, quite unlikely, Talgo or otherwise.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
 
Actually, there's two other places I can think of where there would be an advantage from their tilt.

The first is out of Atlanta to Birmingham and Chattanooga. As Bill Haithcoat, George Harris and I think Xyzzy will tell you, those routes are as curvy as all else. Of course, there are so many other issues with regional services to those two cities that simply having two tilting trainsets doesn't solve.

The second I might could see is the Pennsylvanian. I'm not as familiar with this route...and as I was typing this I was suddenly reminded about the high platform issue, the Talgos are low (actually medium?) platform cars and a recent post on another forum indicated that Talgo didn't have interest in high level platform vehicles so never mind.
The two Talgo trainsets will never be used on Eastern corridor routes because they are not compatible with high level platforms (HLP). The number of stations in the east with HLPs is going to increase, not just on the NEC, but on the Empire corridor, NHV-SPG corridor and in the south at Raleigh, Tampa, Jacksonville, Savannah. Atlanta too for that matter if the development deal for the proposed new station in Atlanta can be done.
The two Wisconsin Talgos at this point are orphaned trainsets. The assembly plant that built them has shut down, the economics of building a maintenance facility for only 2 trainsets is poor, the Midwestern states are getting 88 corridor bi-level cars with greater capacity, and the contract with Nippon-Sharyo has options for ordering up to 300 more bi-level cars at a good price.

I think Talgo is pretty much shut out of the US intercity passenger rail market except in the Northwest. Well, unless they can build HSR trainsets that meet the Buy American requirements and are compatible with HLPs. It is possible, not likely, but possible that the 2 Talgo trainsets will never see revenue service and will gather dust in storage for many years before being scrapped.
 
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