Why No Business Class On San Joaquin

We just booked our tickets for a trip to San Francisco from Bakersfield on the San Joaquin. I take the Pacific Surfliner Weekly and upgrade to Business Class, but it looks like the San Joaquin does not have a Business Class product. Just all coach. Is there just not enough premium traffic on this route?

Lack of equipment I believe, plus switching sets with Capitol Corridor.

To add to what Paulus said, there were no California Cars built in a Business Class configuration. It would be a somewhat expensive proposition to convert the cars to have more legroom (all the overhead lights would need to be moved because they aren't on tracks) and it would take those cars out of service for a couple of weeks on lines that both have incredibly high ridership (and need very high equipment availability).

​The new cars being built for California can be quickly and easily reconfigured (in just a matter of hours) from Coach cars to Business class cars. It's just conjecture on my part, but they could add Business class to the San Joaquin at that point.

They were talking about adding business class to the Capitol Corridor close to ten years ago but as mentioned above the need for equipment and difficulty in configuring the cars for it was a roadblock. I for one would love to see business class on the CC, which would then probably be extended to the SJ due to the shared equipment pool.

Paulus said:

Lack of equipment I believe, plus switching sets with Capitol Corridor.

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That is a bummer. When I take business class on the Pacific Surfliner, it is quiet and the extra leg room and recline makes it much easier to fall asleep. And 99% of the time, there are no crying babies or screaming toddlers in there as well. For the cell phone yappers, the attendant will tell them to shut up or go down stairs.

I would imagine the Capitol Corridor would serve more of the demographic for a Business Class with a more commuter type crowd. I don't know how the San Joaquin would fare with a business class, however that would be nice given the longer distance traveled by most. The two routes have a different demographic of traveler, however they share the same equipment for the most part so Business Class on one could lead to Business Class on the other provided there were enough cars to rotate around.

If the San Joaquin route had Business Class, I'd use it without a second thought. All my travels on that route to date are between the end-points of Sacramento and Oakland to/from Bakersfield; connections with LA by bus being the only reason to visit the Official State Armpit that is Bakersfield IMHO. ^_^

A more comfortable accommodation that (maybe, as this is the era of Amtrak amenities cuts!) comes with a few additional perks like drinks and meal discount coupons is a plus for such a long trip.

This said, if given an option of BC on the existing San Joaquin trains, and extending one round-trip all the way up to Redding, I'd take the later in a second.

roadman3313 said:

I would imagine the Capitol Corridor would serve more of the demographic for a Business Class with a more commuter type crowd. I don't know how the San Joaquin would fare with a business class, however that would be nice given the longer distance traveled by most. The two routes have a different demographic of traveler, however they share the same equipment for the most part so Business Class on one could lead to Business Class on the other provided there were enough cars to rotate around.

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The Capitol Corridor is served just fine for it's route by a one-class train. It's rather short for most riders, and I don't think a BC option would be a bit seller. The reason? Outside of the 50% off deals, the price of travel on the route is obscene for what you get. It is literally cheaper to drive if you have a car, even with $4 a gallon gas and vehicle maintenance factored in. Quicker too. So why would anyone with a sane mind want to pay even more for the same sized seat that happens to recline a few degrees?

Blackwolf said:

roadman3313 said:

I would imagine the Capitol Corridor would serve more of the demographic for a Business Class with a more commuter type crowd. I don't know how the San Joaquin would fare with a business class, however that would be nice given the longer distance traveled by most. The two routes have a different demographic of traveler, however they share the same equipment for the most part so Business Class on one could lead to Business Class on the other provided there were enough cars to rotate around.

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The Capitol Corridor is served just fine for it's route by a one-class train. It's rather short for most riders, and I don't think a BC option would be a bit seller. The reason? Outside of the 50% off deals, the price of travel on the route is obscene for what you get. It is literally cheaper to drive if you have a car, even with $4 a gallon gas and vehicle maintenance factored in. Quicker too. So why would anyone with a sane mind want to pay even more for the same sized seat that happens to recline a few degrees?

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Don't know if that computes. I've got maybe a 50 mile one-way commute down 80/880 and assorted surface streets. My car gets maybe 25 MPG and uses premium fuel. So it's $8 for gas each way. A 10-ride from Berkeley to GAC is $106. I pick Berkeley because it's the same price as Emeryville and I've got a bit of flexibility to use that if my wife picks me up. I can park at Emeryville for free. I also get a free transfer from/to VTA.

The current IRS mileage rate is 56 cents/mile. I think it's safe to say that CC costs less if wear and tear is factored in. And I don't get to work cranky because of the multiple times that someone cut me off.

For the name of Business Class! I was a regular commuter on that route and I know many who would have paid a bit extra for a little extra comfort, quiet, and space. Mainly because subsidies cover a portion of the cost for the trip as well using commuter programs. Most travel on a monthly pass or 10-ride pass which does provide a bit of a discount as well. With that said, I wouldn't drive my old commute during rush hour... it would take much longer!

I do agree though the ride is a bit short so the San Joaquin would be nicer for those going end-to-end or a longer distance. Makes more sense when you put it that way.

Especially during peak hours, business class is well worth the small premium. The noise level is night and day between business class and coach on the Surfliner. For me it is well worth the extra 12 dollars each way.

connections with LA by bus being the only reason to visit the Official State Armpit that is Bakersfield IMHO.

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I'm sure my friend from Bakersfield has an even lower opinion of Sacramento.

So why would anyone with a sane mind want to pay even more for the same sized seat that happens to recline a few degrees?

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First time I've ever heard product choice described as a mental health issue.

PaulM said:

connections with LA by bus being the only reason to visit the Official State Armpit that is Bakersfield IMHO.

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I'm sure my friend from Bakersfield has an even lower opinion of Sacramento.

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Maybe a lower opinion of those who inhabit the building with the big dome.

I know several people from Bakersfield and even they admit (and some even have a sense of pride when doing so) it's the armpit of California.

That said, I'd rather live in Bakersfield than in Fresno.

tp49 said:

PaulM said:

connections with LA by bus being the only reason to visit the Official State Armpit that is Bakersfield IMHO.

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I'm sure my friend from Bakersfield has an even lower opinion of Sacramento.

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Maybe a lower opinion of those who inhabit the building with the big dome.

I know several people from Bakersfield and even they admit (and some even have a sense of pride when doing so) it's the armpit of California.

That said, I'd rather live in Bakersfield than in Fresno.

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Bakersfield has a more robust economy because of the oil boom. Fresno is more heavily dependent on agriculture, and the drought isn't going to be very helpful with the local economy.

I still wouldn't want to live in the Central Valley.

There's a reason the SJ conductors call the trash bags carried by passengers on the train Valley Samsonite

Guest said:

There's a reason the SJ conductors call the trash bags carried by passengers on the train Valley Samsonite

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Now I'm really wanting Business Class on this train.

For a bit of background… the California cars that are used on the San Joaquin were also used on the Pacific Surfliner back in the early 90s. The Surfliner obviously has business class seating so I was wondering how that was accomplished. Turns out they used to use a Superliner baggage coach in the consist that was branded as the "pacific class" or "custom class" car. Checked baggage was kept in the compartment down below and I assume there was a small galley setup somewhere for the attendant to make coffee and store service items (the service provided sounds better than the current business class too!) Also since there was an attendant in the car, I assume they opened the manual door and greeted passengers.

The Northern California pool has 4 Superliner cars that are typically assigned to the San Joaquin trainsets to serve as baggage coaches. The seating in these cars is much more comfortable than in the California Car coaches and the lighting is dimmer. Also, since the door doesn't open at stations, this car tends to be less busy than the other cars. It provides a nicer atmosphere at no additional cost. It's usually the closest car to the locomotive.

seat38a, I highly suggest trying to snag a seat in this car.

seat38a said:

Guest said:

There's a reason the SJ conductors call the trash bags carried by passengers on the train Valley Samsonite

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Now I'm really wanting Business Class on this train.

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Let me be really clear on something... I was born and raised in Southern California and had the pleasure (no sarcasm intended) of working in Fresno for over three years. In that time I took about 15 round trips a year on the San Joaquin. The people of the Central Valley (and by extension the biggest group of passengers on the San Joaquin) may not have a lot of money, but they are proud, friendly and hard-working. I would have no problem telling anyone I know to catch a ride on the San Joaquin.

Are there people who yap loudly on their phones? Sure, but they're rare and the conductors are good at telling them to keep it down (just like the attendants on the BC cars).

Are there people who carry their belongings in trash bags? I saw somebody doing this once and I'm pretty sure they were using a bag to cover a child's car seat.

Are there prisoners who take the train? Yes. But I found them to be amongst the quietest and most respectful passengers I've ever encountered.

Live on the wild side, enjoy a ride with us plebeians in coach.

As I step off my soapbox... let me make one final suggestion... order a cup of coffee from the café. It's made by a Oakland based roaster named Peerless and I think it's one of the better cups of joe out there. Plus you get a free refill!

rickycourtney said:

For a bit of background… the California cars that are used on the San Joaquin were also used on the Pacific Surfliner back in the early 90s. The Surfliner obviously has business class seating so I was wondering how that was accomplished. Turns out they used to use a Superliner baggage coach in the consist that was branded as the "pacific class" or "custom class" car. Checked baggage was kept in the compartment down below and I assume there was a small galley setup somewhere for the attendant to make coffee and store service items (the service provided sounds better than the current business class too!) Also since there was an attendant in the car, I assume they opened the manual door and greeted passengers.

The Northern California pool has 4 Superliner cars that are typically assigned to the San Joaquin trainsets to serve as baggage coaches. The seating in these cars is much more comfortable than in the California Car coaches and the lighting is dimmer. Also, since the door doesn't open at stations, this car tends to be less busy than the other cars. It provides a nicer atmosphere at no additional cost. It's usually the closest car to the locomotive.

seat38a, I highly suggest trying to snag a seat in this car.

seat38a said:

Guest said:

There's a reason the SJ conductors call the trash bags carried by passengers on the train Valley Samsonite

Click to expand...

Now I'm really wanting Business Class on this train.

Click to expand...

Let me be really clear on something... I was born and raised in Southern California and had the pleasure (no sarcasm intended) of working in Fresno for over three years. In that time I took about 15 round trips a year on the San Joaquin. The people of the Central Valley (and by extension the biggest group of passengers on the San Joaquin) may not have a lot of money, but they are proud, friendly and hard-working. I would have no problem telling anyone I know to catch a ride on the San Joaquin.

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I haven't seen that many people taking the San Joaquin. I've barely ridden it once. I've taken my train-crazy kid to see the trains at RIC. My experience with the San Joaquin is of passengers who barely speak English. Once I was one the CC and someone approached me gesturing if they were in the right place. I think they were going to transfer at Emeryville, but they didn't know if they were going the right direction.

BCL said:

I haven't seen that many people taking the San Joaquin. I've barely ridden it once. I've taken my train-crazy kid to see the trains at RIC. My experience with the San Joaquin is of passengers who barely speak English. Once I was one the CC and someone approached me gesturing if they were in the right place. I think they were going to transfer at Emeryville, but they didn't know if they were going the right direction.

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The Capitol Corridor is Amtrak's 3rd busiest route, the San Joaquin is the 5th busiest route. But the San Joaquin has on average more passengers per trip than the Capitol Corridor.

Consider that the Capitol Corridor has 15 round trip trains per day on weekdays (11 on weekends)... crunching the annual ridership numbers (1,701,185 in FY 2013) there's an average of 168 passengers per train.

On the other hand the San Joaquin has just 6 round trip trains per day and served 1,219,818 passengers in FY 2013... that's an average of 279 passengers per train.

The popularity of these trains is why Caltrans purchased the Comet cars. The San Joaquin trains need more seats, but with the Capitol Corridor requiring so many trainsets, there were no cars to spare. It's also impossible at this point to add more runs to the San Joaquin (which it could use) because there's just not enough equipment.

Also it's worth mentioning that the Amtrak California crews do a magnificent job keeping these trains running with very few spare cars available. If the Oakland yard was run like Chicago... trains would have to be cancelled due to equipment shortages.

I had a nearly private ride on San Joaquin #702 in the Superliner Car from SAC-BFD (connecting to a throughway) bus in January, the regular coaches were empty enough that only a couple of people bothered to wander back. It was fabulous. On most other Amtrak routes (and all of New York's Commuter Rail Lines) if low-ridership was anticipated the car would have been closed off!

The San Joaquin did have a business/custom class in the late 90's - early 2000's using superliner 1cars that were on the San Diegan as business class when it had Calcars. Came with the set when they move north. They lasted a very short time, and were in front of the café car. When my wife and I rode them there were less then 10 passengers in business every time.

Ron

What were CalCars, Horizons or Amfleets, or do you mean something else?

CalCars were the high level cars design by the state of California that the Pacific Surfliner high level are base on.

I think that he's talking about the 8000-series California cars. These are all now in the northern fleet.

At SJVRC a while back they talked about implementing business class on the San Joaquin. This would be a "modular" adaptation at one end of the train, basically taking over the top deck of one of the double deckers or a full single level car. They would install a self service drink station and offer a newspaper, and a business class ticket would be required for passage. However, there would not be any additional legroom since they would use regular seats.