David Gunn says "VIA Rail Dying"

The article is at a subscription only site. But it has been excerpted on a thread at Trainorders. So I give you the pointer to the Trainorders forum:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3187165

Hopefully it won't upset the powers that be.

He makes some cogent points about the very different approaches taken by the management of VIA and Amtrak, and does not have too many kind things to say about VIA management except for their onboard service, which like many of us, he is all praises for.

What a good article.

Makes me realize I need to ride more of VIA (I've just done the Canadian and a couple short corridor rides) before its all gone.

SubwayNut said:

What a good article.

Makes me realize I need to ride more of VIA (I've just done the Canadian and a couple short corridor rides) before its all gone.

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True this! Everyone who has The Ocean and the Canadian on their Bucket List should Book it soon as they can get a Good Fare,(Express or 50% Off) it looks like all that will be left of VIA will be Reduced Service on the Windsor to Quebec City Corridor with a fewTrains to Ottawa! This Country isnt the only one where Wing Nuts Bash Rail!!! :help:

Same here. I've only done Montreal-Ottawa a few times.

And we complain about the Cardinal and SL "only" operating 3 days a week? :huh: The 2 (essentially) cross Canada trains (the Canadian and the Ocean) operate on that schedule. Or even less at certain times of the year.

I do think VIA will be the next Mexico.

So... a mini X-Canada Gathering may be in order? I'm already P.O.ed at myself for not getting to Gaspe'...

But then this is David Gunn, who did SO much for Amtrak talking...

Too bad I don't have the money to be riding VIA all the time. I guess I could find the money to afford it, but I'm travelling international soon and those trips burn up the cash. Now I'm forced to cut back on domestic trips and save money when I can. This explain why I'm riding buses so much, etc, but it's not bad enough to force me into becoming a Van Hool Fool!

Anyways, VIA Rail has done very few things to improve their network. Sure, they have great service, but the CPR and CNR they inherited also had similar high levels of services. OTOH, VIA Rail has been cutting trains all over the place and has no expanded at all. Their equipment is either old, unreliable, or both.

The only way to save something of the network is to make as many tourist trains as possible. Obviously the Canadian would be great for that. The Skeena is running for pleasure anyway, they have a overnight in Prince George. The Hudson Bay could turn into essential service with a fun northern twist. The Ocean might become something like the Canadian, or that train will get cut too.

It's obvious that Canada has no train culture. Frankly, nor does the US, but at least Amtrak is physically doing better. That train culture is rampant in Germany or India, where trains run with extreme support and virtually no obstacles.

I like Gunn's candidcy. He's straight to the point. As I've said time and again, Canada could become the next Mexico if they don't wake up from their crazy dreams. Dave Gunn is pretty good at arguing, and I fully agree, VIA Rail is dying and I don't think it's to stop.

jimhudson said:

True this! Everyone who has The Ocean and the Canadian on their Bucket List should Book it soon as they can get a Good Fare,(Express or 50% Off) it looks like all that will be left of VIA will be Reduced Service on the Windsor to Quebec City Corridor with a fewTrains to Ottawa!

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I doubt that even that will survive. VIA is shrinking to the point where it's too small to function.
I suspect that when VIA is shut down entirely, either Ontario or Toronto will pay the bill to keep Amtrak's Maple Leaf running. At this point, I don't see anything else surviving. It's possible some of the lost Ontario services will be taken over by GO, and it's possible that some of the remote services will be handed to First Nations or some such.

But barring a massive change in government, I don't see how the Toronto-Montreal services will survive. First all the branches will be cut (Quebec City, Sarnia, Windsor), then all trains will be routed via Ottawa (slowing down Toronto-Montreal times), and then there won't even be enough money for that and the whole operation will shut down.

Of course, under the Canadian system, a sudden massive change of government *is* a possibility.

The Davy Crockett said:

So... a mini X-Canada Gathering may be in order? I'm already P.O.ed at myself for not getting to Gaspe'...

But then this is David Gunn, who did SO much for Amtrak talking...

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Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or what, but Gunn is the one that took over Amtrak when it was about six weeks away from shutting down due to lack of cash, convinced a hostile DOT secretary to give Amtrak a loan to finish out the fiscal year, set the record straight regarding the foolishness and delusion that the previous management had said about being on a "glidepath to self-sufficiency", restarted railcar wreck repair and refurbishment programs at Beech Grove that had been mothballed for years, pretty much kept the network intact (except for the Three Rivers and one Florida frequency, for which Amtrak really didn't have adequate equipment to run anyway) during a time when most railfans were writing the obituary to all long-distance passenger train service in the US, got rid of the money-losing and train-delaying express freight program (I suppose it's debatable whether killing mail was a good move), and only got fired for refusing to play along with a plan to privatize the NEC infrastructure.

So, yeah, I'd say he did quite a lot for Amtrak.

Gunn is a rescuer of public transportation before Amtrak he was a savior of the NYC Subway reducing graffiti and and beginning the Capital Programs to get our subway back into good repair, he tried to do the same thing on the TTC and I think rescued Amtrak as well. I still remember feeling extremely mad when Bush's board pushed him out of his job for Amtrak.

You know, Gunn did a great job rescuing Amtrak from Warrington. Warrington made Amtrak into an awful quagmire that Gunn fixed up. Gunn is a good guy to me, he's effective and straightforward. He's saying the right thing about VIA Rail. I full agree with him and a lot of stuff he's said/done before. He's the old that flaty told Congress, "Amtrak will never make a profit." That was taking Amtrak to stand up against everything else that also needs subsides, albiet indirect subsides. If Gunn suddenly became head of VIA Rail, maybe things would make a turn for the better. Right now VIA Rail is self-destructing.

Ok, if you were put in charge of VIA Rail, what would you do to make it a healthy operation? My impression is that the current government is not hostile to VIA, just indifferent to it and not very interested in the services to the providences outside of the Quebec-Montreal-Toronto-Windsor corridor. I have not followed VIA closely, but the Canadian govt has provided capital funds for upgrades to the corridor routes.

So, facing an indifferent national government, are there possibilities for more support from the Provincial, municipal, and local governments? Can the corridor services be improved without major capital investments? What can VIA do to grow ridership?

Amtrak is in healthier shape and if it can get the pass the next several years of Congress intact, will be expanding corridor services. Are there possibilities for VIA to work more closely with Amtrak with cross-border agreements that will provide protection against arbitrary cuts by the Canadian government? There is an effort underway to possibly restore Chicago-Toronto service which has gotten verbal support from the Michigan Governor. Years away from anything happening, but VIA could benefit from it. Any opportunities to leverage off improved Adirondack and extended Vermonter service to Montreal?

The Amtrak LD trains are doing ok with robust ridership. What lessons can VIA take from the Amtrak LD trains?

It's plausible that VIA could solicit support from Ontario, Quebec, and/or BC at some point. The main issue is that enough of their services cross provincial lines to make such solicitations problematic.

Save VIA:

1. Throw ALL your eggs in the Montreal-Toronto basket. Higher speeds, more frequencies. Create an "Acela"-like premium

service. Canada might not have a train culture but business travelers in that corridor will know and appreciate the value of

a high-quality rail shuttle between two very important cities. Do everything you can to make the public think of Montreal-

Toronto as being the Canadian version of the NEC.

2. Allow a few of those eggs to spill over into services such as Ottawa, Windsor, Quebec City. Model them after Amtrak's

Chicago-region service...one or two or three daily, with cafe car, BC, etc. I realize that's kind of how it is now, but that's

fine.

3. Sorry, but ditch the Ocean. Tell the Atlantic provinces if they want a local, regional train to fund it themselves. But 3x a week

to Montreal on a slow, circuitous route serves no one well.

4. As soon as possible, turn over all your oddball "essential" routes to the First Nations, or the highest bidder. If they want the

service to continue to operate under the VIA system, allow them to pay VIA for that. But get it off the VIA books.

5. Recognize the Canadian for what it is: a tourist train. Run it daily between Vancouver and Edmonton, with a schedule

timed for maximum Rockies scenery.

6. Bring your website into the 21st Century.

The Davy Crockett said:

So... a mini X-Canada Gathering may be in order? I'm already P.O.ed at myself for not getting to Gaspe'...

But then this is David Gunn, who did SO much for Amtrak talking...

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Yes you should have ridden the Gaspe train! :angry2: Bad. only joking

I have heard from people down the coast they are still working on the bridges in Sandybeach/Haldimand,just outside of Gaspe and a few other bridges in Barchois and a few more towards Perce.

They have spent over $25 million on the line over the five years with all the flooding and other stuff that has been happening.

I even heard they had started rebuilding the 1960's Gaspe station which burnt down a few years ago.

Don't give on my Gaspe train just quite yet!

As for the management at Via Rail in Montreal they seem to be only concerned with the corridor and nothing else! :angry2:

I will stop bashing Via Rail management now before I get into trouble with the moderator here.

It will be back!

gaspeamtrak said:

The Davy Crockett said:

So... a mini X-Canada Gathering may be in order? I'm already P.O.ed at myself for not getting to Gaspe'...

But then this is David Gunn, who did SO much for Amtrak talking...

Click to expand...

Yes you should have ridden the Gaspe train! :angry2: Bad. only joking

I have heard from people down the coast they are still working on the bridges in Sandybeach/Haldimand,just outside of Gaspe and a few other bridges in Barchois and a few more towards Perce.

They have spent over $25 million on the line over the five years with all the flooding and other stuff that has been happening.

I even heard they had started rebuilding the 1960's Gaspe station which burnt down a few years ago.

Don't give on my Gaspe train just quite yet!

As for the management at Via Rail in Montreal they seem to be only concerned with the corridor and nothing else! :angry2:

I will stop bashing Via Rail management now before I get into trouble with the moderator here.

It will be back!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that! I'll take a hiatus from being POed at myself for a while.

So basically what is apparently being recommended is a Canadian version of PRIIA Section 209 with no distance limit, while exempting the Toronto - Montreal corridor. The reality is that Ottawa and Quebec City will need to be part o that corridor mix for it to have sufficient support to be feasible at all.

I agree with the concept of VIA making the Windsor/Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal/Quebec City City (Politics make this necessary as jis said)Corridor a Great White North version of the NEC!

I disagree with dropping the Ocean (maybe only run it during the Summer) and making the Canadian a Rival for the Privately owned Rocky Mountaineer running only between Vancouver and Edmonton/Calgary!) Also I find the VIA web site via.ca to be easier to use and more informative than Amtrak.com, no need to change it unless the Graphics were to be improved! (Maybe on of our AUers that does this workcould get the contract! )Also VIA needs to work with the Ottawa Politicians and the CN Suits to ensure better Time Keeping for the Canadian, it makes the Empire Builder look like HSR ! :help:

My Own Proposal (not original here by any means) is for VIA to Lease or even Sell Sleepers, Domes , Diners and Park Cars tio Amtrak for use of our Tourist Trains and "Specials"/Excursions during the Spring, Fall and Winter when the Canadian and Ocean are cut down to Shorter Consists and Less Frequent Runs! ( the Adirondack, Cardinal, LSL,CL and All of the Western Trains would really Benefit from this!

Also Amtrak might want to look into hiring some VIA Trainers and if possible even Layed Off/Retired OBS Staff to Train their Employees in Customer Service!

I Love Amtrak and VIA, and as has been said, if you havent taken your Bucket list Trips yet on Both, Please do so ASAP, Catch 'em before they're Gone!

Here's one problem with saving VIa Rail's long-distance lines: the nature of Canada's Parliament. The House of Commons is elected by equal-population districts. Sounds fair, but the continuation of Amtrak's long-distance lines has often, I think, depended on U.S. Senators, who disproportionately represent small-population states west of the Mississippi. This would make it easier for any Canadian government to abandon all routes outside of an Ontario-Quebec corridor.

I'm glad that I rode the Canadian when I did (and am sorry I never rode it on the CP route), and hope to ride the Ocean before it disappears. Alas, next year I'm focusing on Scandinavian trains.

jimhudson said:

I disagree with dropping the Ocean (maybe only run it during the Summer) and making the Canadian a Rival for the Privately owned Rocky Mountaineer running only between Vancouver and Edmonton/Calgary!)

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Fair point about the Canadian. Perhaps if you wanted to distinguish it from a pure tourist train you could have it run all the way to Winnipeg. The problem

with the Canadian is that it is just an incredibly long route and it's hard to make a public service case for running it all the way from Toronto to Vancouver,

a journey that takes a very long time and costs a lot of money. And really it's only the western third that is the draw for leisure travelers. Yes, the Canadian

does serve tiny out-of-the-way communities but honestly, many of those "stations" are flag stops that have (I bet) just a couple of dozen passengers per year.

fairviewroad said:

jimhudson said:

I disagree with dropping the Ocean (maybe only run it during the Summer) and making the Canadian a Rival for the Privately owned Rocky Mountaineer running only between Vancouver and Edmonton/Calgary!)

Click to expand...

Fair point about the Canadian. Perhaps if you wanted to distinguish it from a pure tourist train you could have it run all the way to Winnipeg. The problem

with the Canadian is that it is just an incredibly long route and it's hard to make a public service case for running it all the way from Toronto to Vancouver,

a journey that takes a very long time and costs a lot of money. And really it's only the western third that is the draw for leisure travelers. Yes, the Canadian

does serve tiny out-of-the-way communities but honestly, many of those "stations" are flag stops that have (I bet) just a couple of dozen passengers per year.

Click to expand...

:hi: Excellent point about Winnipeg, and if VIA would move the Canadian back to the Southern Route to/from Calgary/Vancouver through Banff it would be the Perfect Solution!

If I were VIA, I would have a choice to make: A useful trnapsort system or a cruise train? Right now VIA is cut in between, and they're not getting any good from either side. I think the Corridor and its entensions will become a useful transport system, essential services whill be as they are, and the Canadian, Ocean, and Skeena will all become land cruises, possibly under a different name than VIA Rail.

I find one thing hilarious on VIA's website: "Affordable fares. I'm in, are you?"

(deleted account could not edit quotes without eliminating them entirely) I haven't figured out how to do that yet......

Nathanael said:

jimhudson said:

True this! Everyone who has The Ocean and the Canadian on their Bucket List should Book it soon as they can get a Good Fare,(Express or 50% Off) it looks like all that will be left of VIA will be Reduced Service on the Windsor to Quebec City Corridor with a fewTrains to Ottawa!

Click to expand...

I doubt that even that will survive. VIA is shrinking to the point where it's too small to function.
I suspect that when VIA is shut down entirely, either Ontario or Toronto will pay the bill to keep Amtrak's Maple Leaf running.

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I suspect that in that case, Amtrak would run the Maple Leaf on its own, all the way to Toronto, with or without Canadian funding.....

I don’t think you’ll see VIA’s Corridor operations disappear anytime soon. Trains have been added on the “core” Corridor routes between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City. From Montreal to Quebec City, there’s now 5 trains per day each way and between Montreal and Ottawa, now 7 per day each way. Over the past couple of years several new stations have been constructed and there’s been about 70km of triple tracking added to avoid freight interference so speeds and trains can be increased.

Key corridor populations are Toronto 5.4 million, Montreal 3.7m, Ottawa 1.0m and Quebec City 0.7m. It’s 500 km from Toronto to Montreal with several cities between but it would probably still be considered rural compared to the US…… and nowhere near the population density to maintain a frequency like Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor.



Canada has a total population of about 34 million. In 2012 VIA carried 3.9 million passengers or slightly more than 10% of the population.

The US has a population of about 317 million. Amtrak carried 31.2 million passengers last year so slightly less than 10% of the population.

VIA cut trains outside of the core corridor routes that were little used. The one exception might have been the Moncton-Montreal portion of the Ocean. The Halifax portion long ago ceased as a viable inter-city function. People just fly: 2 hr to central Canada vs: 24 on the train. Gaspe and Victoria trains disappeared due to track conditions beyond VIA’s control.

And on the Niagara Falls and Kitchener routes it was the passengers who abandon VIA after GO Transit added a more frequent and cheaper service even if some schedules involved a train-bus transfer. The morning VIA train into Toronto lost about half its passengers after GO started.

NS VIA Fan said:

And on the Niagara Falls and Kitchener routes it was the passengers who abandon VIA after GO Transit added a more frequent and cheaper service even if some schedules involved a train-bus transfer. The morning VIA train into Toronto lost about half its passengers after GO started.

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That morning train from Niagara Falls to Toronto would do just fine if Amtrak would extend one of their Empire Service trains overnite from NYP to connect (actually replace) it....