SEPTA's 'Doomsday Plan'

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(From this article at Philly.com)

SEPTA MAY be forced to eliminate service on nine of its 13 rail lines, shorten two other lines, scrap express subway service and convert all trolley routes to bus routes by 2023 without an infusion of funding from the state, the agency's general manager said yesterday as he outlined a doomsday plan.

It might be posturing, but nevertheless, he said the system needs $6.5 Billion over the next 10 years to bring it to a "state of good repair" or

Without it, he said, SEPTA would end service on the Cynwyd line in 2014, the Media/Elwyn line in 2015 and the Chestnut Hill West line in 2018. Six more lines would be eliminated or shortened by 2023. Under the plan, SEPTA would also get rid of the Broad-Ridge Spur subway and all express subway service.

After debating three plans to increase funding for bridges and mass transit this year, state lawmakers whiffed on all three before summer recess.
 
And the Wilm/Newark service is also threatened. I only saw the headline since I don't pay to read the NewsJournal/DelawareOnline.
 
What's going to happen to all the infrastructure if all this gets cut? What are the two Regional Rail routes that aren't at htreat of shutdown? I'm thinking Throndale and Trenton? Maybe Norristown, maybe somethings else?
 
None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
 
None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
 
Why am I NOT surprised by this??
Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis? :p
True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
 
It's worth mentioning that SEPTA recorded its highest ridership in something like 20 years, including its highest ever Regional Rail ridership, in the last year (not sure exactly what 12 month period that included).
 
(From this article at Philly.com)

SEPTA MAY be forced to eliminate service on nine of its 13 rail lines, shorten two other lines, scrap express subway service and convert all trolley routes to bus routes by 2023 without an infusion of funding from the state, the agency's general manager said yesterday as he outlined a doomsday plan.
The posturing is offensive for a very specific reason. If SEPTA's budget is tight, the correct thing to do -- from the point of view of improving SEPTA's budget balance -- is to scrap the BUS SERVICES. The rail services are more financially viable than the bus services, generally speaking.
SEPTA has wanted to get rid of the Cynwyd line and the Broad-Ridge Spur for a while, so those might actually happen. Threatening Media and Elwyn is pure posturing to try to get people to call their state legislators.
 
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Why am I NOT surprised by this??
Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis? :p
True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
 
Why am I NOT surprised by this??
Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis? :p
True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.

But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.
 
Why am I NOT surprised by this??
Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis? :p
True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.

But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.
Good to hear that Regional Rail is doing well during the peak hours. I'm not sure was SRO means, I'm assuming it means the train was extremly full. Never ridden a Silver V, from pics they look uncomfortable. CHW is a really short line, seems like the shortest of all the lines. I've ridden all the Regional Rail lines except Warminster. In the 1980s when I lived in Philadelphia, I rode R7 Trenton the most, plus a bunch of R6 Norristown, R5 Thorndale, and R3 Media/Elwyn. back in the old days of R-numbers. Do they still have the really long Thorndale-Doyestown through trains?
 
Why am I NOT surprised by this??
Ummmm... because you ride SEPTA on a regular basis? :p
True.. Septa just raised fares very stupidly I might add. A ride on the P&W for one using a Pass or Token must pay an additional 50 Cents... Which has caused an uproar.

None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
Yes, but they're pretty much going to reduce frequencies for sure and maybe cut Express and Limited service. When I returned to PHL for a visit a few years ago, the trains were woefully empty during off-eak hours. On one Silverliner IV to Thorndale, there were only 16 passengers on the whole train when we left 30th Street Station and by Thorndale I was the only one left. Had a nice chat with the confuctor.
Maybe on a Sunday in the late evening. But an off-peak train to Thorndale is usually pretty full. It's the only train that has more then 2 cars open during the mid day period.
I thought Trenton also runs with 3 cars off-peak? And Chestnut Hill West (ex-R8) is always empty too.
I rarely ride the Trenton Line, In fact the last time I rode it was Last Year with the Gathering Gang. Before then I can't even remember. The Chestnut Hill West/East and Manayunk/Norristown Line's are the three I ride most. I get on at Chestnut Hill West or East and Miquon on the Norristown Line. I've been on various trains on all lines. I once boarded a 8 am something train out of CHW. By half way down the line it was SRO. CHE is pretty full. I've ridden a 9 am something train and that's always 6 cars as it starts out running during rush hour their are typically 2 or 3 open on that. Rush Hour on the Norristown line can be crazy. I have boarded the 805 to the city at Miquon when I was heading to Boston on the 1030 AE. It seems to be a set of the newer V's on that train and I managed to get one of the last Handicapped Seats. A couple bags is a bit tough to fit in the seats. I like to ride the IV's when I have a decent amount of luggage and try to board at CHW. High Levels and the First stop and on top of that PHL is the first Center City stop. It's a 25-30 minute ride. Quick and easy.

But fares are getting out of hand. Last month I went from Miquon to PHL it was $12 RT. I remember when it was $6! Double the price??!! I have to pay double because the state sucks at funding Public Transit? And even then that $12 but do much.
Do they still have the really long Thorndale-Doyestown through trains?
Yup..
 
*sighs*
And the two angles of public transit fares/support strike again. On the one hand, I get the desire for low fares, but on the other there's the mess of political will and what have you. The other point that comes to mind is that if trains are running either SRO or close to it, if you can't increase available equipment it becomes time to look at fare hikes as a method of demand management (and/or running a cheaper-but-slower bus service in concert with the rail service).

Also, in all seriousness, what does the fare history of SEPTA look like? I ask because a 100% increase in fares may be a lot, but if it's over 5 years vs. 15 makes a big difference (the former indicates a 14% annualized rate of increase; the latter 4.67%).
 
One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.

In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.

Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.
 
None of this will actually happen. It's just a way to try to get the state legislature to act. Eventually, they will. Some cuts will be necessary, but nobody's going to shut down a complete rapid transit line or most of the commuter lines.
"Most" of the commuter lines will survive, but to say "none of this will actually happen" is a bit optimistic. Just compare an early 1980's SEPTA map

with the present day SEPTA map. Gone are extensions to Parkesburg, Pottstown, Quakertown, Newtown, Manayunk, and West Chester. The only new

service is the Airport Line (doesn't really serve commuters), the extension to Newark, DE and of course the downtown tunnel between Penn Center/

Suburban Station and Market East/Reading Terminal.

So yes, the SEPTA regional rail map can and does shrink over the years. Obviously if the Cynwyd line is axed it won't be a huge loss, but I wouldn't

just assume everything else will be saved. And yeah, if these types of doomsday prophecies gets people to call their lawmakers, then good! Elected

officials need to hear about service that matters.
 
Hello everybody i know i haven't been on this forum for sometime but here are my 2 cents on this.

I seriously don't want this to happen millions and billions of people who rely on SEPTA will be in deep trouble because SEPTA cannot provide a public service which is vastly needed, the thing is that Philly is a City that strives on Public Transport and SEPTA cutting services like that hurting people's chances to go to work, to school, etc, is heart breaking.

also Philly is a City that strives on its Railroad history and culture such as what once was the Mighty Pennsy and Reading Railroads, that i am amazed that the infrastructure is still there that SEPTA, Amtrak and NJT currently uses.

Why take the RR's away if Rail is a very efficent mode of Transport and not only that but taking away the airport line is stupid as heck, many places around the US and the world have and is building Rail lines to and from the airport and the city center.

when i was in philly i took the airport line to catch a flight to go home to Miami, FL and i am thankful for the airport line, it makes me feel sad and mad that this is happening, since when was public transit profitable, its a public service and yes profit does run but most important is its customers.

the freeways aren't the only way to get around Philly, also how is SEPTA doing this if i see SEPTA is improving with the bridgeport upgrade, wayne junction upgrade, delivery of Silverliner V's and other stuffs.

Could another agency handle the regional rail network and maybe SEPTA can be in charge of the streetcars, subways and buses?
 
One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.

In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.

Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.
Thanks for that interesting insight.

I guess that if you run a service properly, passengers will come. I'm not in favor of fare hikes in general but I do see that improved farebox recoveries are important. Not least because they make commuter agencies more autonomous and less exposed to the whims of politicians who demand more service one day and then threaten to slash funding the next.
 
Philly.com has an article which is related to the financial situation SEPTA finds itself in. PA Sen. Bob Casey held a news conference at 30th St. Station, with SEPTA's GM and Montgomery Co. Commissioner Josh Shapiro by his sides where he said the federal gas tax should be raised from the current 18.4 cents, a level it has been at for the last twenty years.

From the article:

"Careening from one short-term transportation bill to another has increased uncertainty for agencies like SEPTA," Casey said. "Congress should begin work now on a long-term transportation bill that allows public agencies to plan into the future."

And:

Most of SEPTA's subsidy for operating costs comes from the state ($595 million this year), while most of its capital funding, for such things as new vehicles and bridge replacement, comes from the federal government ($187 million this year).

"As transit agencies face shrinking contributions from states and municipalities, we need to provide consistent funding," Casey said in a letter Monday to House and Senate leaders. "Failure to do so could result in cuts to routes that commuters depend upon and, ultimately, job losses."

Casey wrote that without more money, the Highway Trust Fund, which pays for roads, bridges and mass transit, "will become insolvent by 2015," costing Pennsylvania tens of thousands of jobs.
 
One ting that I don't understand though, is why is it acceptable to run a bus service with lower farebox collection ratio than trains without any complaints, but a suburban train service has to meet a higher farebox ratio collection bar. At least this seems to be the case in New Jersey.

In the last fare increase in NJT, off peak fares were increased as much as 40+% for rail but much less for bus. The consequence was that farebox recovery overall in rail actually went up and for road went down, and everyone appeared to be happy with both! Rail ridership went down dramatically, but has no recouped to reach the same level as before the fare hike, and of course farebox recovery has improved with that rise in ridership.

Now farebox recovery is so good that there is again talk of reinstating off peak discounts for rail fares, from none other than the Executive Director of NJT! And now the push-back is where exactly will you put the additional passengers specially on the NEC trains which run SRO even on weekends. The answer is of course to run more trains, and that is what we are arguing with NJT at present.
NJT seems pretty stupid right now. They're running cummuter buses parallel to rail routes. They buy huge MCI D4500 and smaller D4000 buses (same model as Greyhound) with reclining seats and charge less than a train. They're running lots of redundant routes like to Wayne, Perth Amboy, and others. Then they go stupid and buy from DesignLine, a manufacturer that has never built such large equipment before. Now DesignLine has filed for bankruptcy and their order has been suspended. Now NJT dosen't know what to do.

Plus, they're buying a bunch of NABI buses which are known for terrible reliability, pretty much the transit likes of Van Hool or Dina. Then these get postponed into service and start breaking down a lot more than the RTS or Flxible Metro they replaced. The D4000s are redundant when their role can be met by suburban RTS buses that are cheaper, more efficient, and offer the same service.

What NJT should have done was to focus on building up their rail network, adding new RTS transit buses to support these routes by branching from rail stations, and maybe adding some D4500s on express routes not served by rail (like to Atlantic City or Cape May/Wildwood).

I know there's going to be disagreement, but duplicating Comet commuter cars with D4500s on the same route dosen't sound right.
 
It appears that SEPTA will not have to enact their doomsday plan, although it is not clear whether SEPTA will be getting enough funding under the passed House bill to cover all its capital needs. After a major battle in the PA House, including a vote on Monday that failed to pass the gas tax increase and transportation bill, the PA House passed a transportation bill tonight. Some serious backroom haggling and deals I'm sure.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazettte: Pa. House passes transportation funding bill.

HARRISBURG -- A major transportation funding package passed a key House vote tonight, one day after it appeared opposition by Republicans to raising revenues and by Democrats to changes in wage rules could sink the bill.

The plan to provide new annual funding for the state's roads, bridges and public transit systems was approved 104-95. It still must win final passage from the House and the Senate, which in June approved a funding package without a House provision lifting the threshold at which public projects must pay union-level wages.
The State Senate will still have to pass the House bill or amend it which would get sent back to the House. So the transportation bill is not out of the woods yet, but it got through the PA House which was considered the toughest part by far.

If PA can get the bill passed and signed into law, it will join VA, MD, MA as the eastern states that raised or modified gas taxes and fees this year to fix their transportation funding shortfalls. Which will mean more state funding for their transit systems and Amtrak passenger rail projects.

BTW, saw several reports that SEPTA is looking to place an order for up to 10 ACS-64s to replace their AEM-7s, but that the order was entirely contingent on the state passing a transportation bill providing more capital funds to SEPTA.
 
More info on the status of the transportation bill in the Philadelphia Inquirer: Pa. House OKs transportation bill it rejected a day earlier. The bill has to be passed by the Senate and then the House again, so the deal could still fall apart. If it does pass, it means that SEPTA can step back from the cliff. It would also mean PennDOT and SEPTA will have more money to work with Amtrak on Keystone corridor and NEC upgrades. Excerpt from the article:

SEPTA officials applauded the vote, which would avert the adoption of the "doomsday budget" that could mean rail-line closures. "We're just thrilled. . . . It's long overdue, and it looks like we finally are going to be able to address some of the issues we need to deal with," said Joseph M. Casey, SEPTA's general manager.

Casey said SEPTA expected to get about $340 million a year of the roughly $475 million earmarked for public transit in the House measure, and he said SEPTA would move immediately to begin working on bridges and power substations that have been on the brink of failure.

"We have about $500 million worth of desperately needed projects that are ready to go and that will hit the streets within six months," Casey said.
 
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