Trains and employee shifts?

I was wondering if one train becomes another at the end of a route. For example, I live in Carbondale, IL. At 9:35pm, the 393 Illini comes in from Chicago. At 7:30 the next morning, the 390 Saluki leaves Carbondale for Chicago. Does the 393 stay in Carbondale all night (I know one train does) and then wye itself to be the 390 at 7:30? If that's the case, why do they have it to be the 393 Illini going south is also the 390 Saluki going north, and the 391 Saluki going south is also the 392 Illini going north? I mean, why not make the trips the same name? For example, the 390 Saluki leaves Carbondale at 7:30, and arrives in Chicago at 1:00. Does it stay there until 4:05 and become the 393 Illini? And if so, why not call the 393 Illini the 391 Saluki? Make sense?

Also, how do employee shifts work? If people start there day here in Carbondale, and are on the 390 Saluki at 7:30am, do they stay on until Chicago at 1:00pm, just hang out for 3 hours, then hop on the 393 Illini at 4:05pm, and return to Carbondale at 9:35pm?

I'm not sure why, or how this came about, but I'm intrigued and want to know how it all works!

When the nightly Illini arrives it terminates and is prepared for the morning run to Chicago. I believe these trains run with NPCU's. Basically a Cab Control car.

As for crews the answer is simple. No. Crews are limited to 12 hours straight of service, except LSA's, SCA's, CA's. So Engineers and Conductors are effected by the 12 hours of service. It's possible the crews goto Chicago and spend the night in Chicago or Carbondale and return the next day.

Thanks for the quick response! I have no idea what an NPCU or a Cab Control car is. lol I'm just wondering how the whole thing works. Does the 392 Illini get to Chicago at 9:35pm, simply turn around, sit for a few hours and become the 391 Saluki?

For the crews, I'm not including engineers, conductors, or those guys. Just like, the guys that take your tickets and things. If they do a straight 12-hour shift, how does that work? If they start here at Carbondale at 7:30, they're in Chicago at 1pm. They can't leave Chicago until 4:05. Then, to work 3 more hours, they'd end up in Effingham at 7:19pm. Then they'd stay the night, hop on 390 Saluki at 9:07am, and be back in Carbondale at 9:35 that night. I don't mean to be a pain, I'm just curious how and when they work. Is it a lot of sleeping in different cities? Do you not start and end your day in the same city?

Since I don't have a schedule in front of me I can't tell you how each train turns. The "guys that take tickets" are Conductors and fall under the 12 Hours of Service law. Crews will run the train from Point A to B and then end their shift. It is completely pointless to have the crew start running the train from point B to A and have to stop in the middle of no where for a new crew.

For many runs, for the T&E (operating) crews, there is a "home" terminal and an "away" terminal for the run. There are relatively short runs where the crew will do a turnaround the same day out and back from the home terminal in the same day A lot of Pacific Surfliners do that.

While I am not that familiar with midwest service, my bet is that Effingham, as an intermediate stop on a relatively short distance train, is probably neither. Chances are, with a run of approximately 5 1/2 hours between Chicago and Carbondale, there is not time to do a same work day turn back to the home terminal in 12 hours, given the schedules, the fact that "on duty" time includes more time than actual transit, and the fact that they don't want to schedule crews right up to the last second to allow for delays. If a crew goes "dead on the law" at 12 hours, they stop the train and it will not move one inch until a replacement crew comes ("dogcatch").

Chances are Chicago is the home terminal, and Carbondale is the away terminal. Crews will go on duty at Chicago, run to Carbondale, take at least 8 hours rest, and work back to Chicago. While I don't know the details, a possible example would be to work from Chicago to Carbondale on 391, go off duty at Carbondale after tying up the train at 1:45 and check into a hotel. If the City of New Orleans has the same crew change points, the same crew could could go on duty to take the City of New Orleans back to Chicago at 3:15 am with more than the 8 hour required rest. Some "jobs" could involve a cycle of trains across a few days, not just a single pair (like the hypothetical 391-58 pair). Amtrak crew members bid on jobs and get them according to seniority. Any Chicago based crew member could bid on any Chicago based job he was route qualified for. If a crew member is not senior enough to hold a regular bid job, he would go on the extra board and work whatever job needed a crew member in that craft who is qualified for the route with 2 (?) hours notice.

The trainsets themselves probably return as the next northbound train from Carbondale. That is the Saluki trainset will return as the Illini at 4:05 pm, but the same T&E crew that brought her down won't go back with her.

The conductors, members of the T&E crew, are the "guys who take your tickets." They are bound by the 12 hour rule, as described above, since they share responsibility for the safe movement of the train as well as taking your tickets. The guy that serves you the drinks in the cafe (Lead service attendant), isn't covered by the "Hours of Service" rules which we are talking about. The LSA has no responsibility for the movement of the train. The LSA very well may work back to Chicago on the Illini in the above example.

The trains going to Carbondale from Chicago are WYED and become the next train back to Chicago, either the same day or the next morning. The WYE is up north of town a ways. I did the down and back a few years ago and they wouldn't let me stay on the train while it was being WYED. Had to get off and wait in the station.

We had the same service people on the train (snack bar, etc) but different engineers and conductors. There was only an engine on the front, no cab car on the rear.

I am a former commuter railroad crew dispatcher and used to deal with the Hours of Service law, and I understand there are now new restrictions in place having to do with which shift an extra board employee works. While it is true that there is a 12 hour limit, there is a wrinkle in there, which is very common in commuter operations, due to the nature of rush hour service. Simply put, if the assignment is on duty more than 12 hours, that is legal as long as there is at least a 4 hour break in the assignment. Example: A job on duty that makes two round trips from Dover, NJ to Hoboken, NJ on duty at 7am, making an eastbound trip, then goes off duty at 9 am. There are rest facilities at the terminal. ( although on jobs like this, many of the crew will go home. ) The job returns to duty at 4 pm, runs a train westbound, turns around and returns east, then runs the final train west, going off duty at 9 pm. That is 14 hours total, but actually they were " on the rail " for about 7 hours, and is OK, because there was a break of at least four hours. If service was delayed and the 4 hour break was negated, they would not be able to finish the assignment and would have to be relieved.

I learned of an example of this on Amtrak this past month, as I tend to talk to train crews about their assignments, due to my working history. On Train 4, the Southwest Chief eastbound, a new crew boarded at La Junta, Colorado, on duty at 7:15 pm. At one time they went to Kansas City, but it led to problems running out of time, so it is now arranged to make a " short turn : to Dodge City, Kansas, a distance of around 200 miles, which takes approx. three and a half hours. They then lay over in Dodge City in the middle of the night, and should have lodging furnished, and the westbound train leaves at 5:25 am. If the trains are on schedule, then this comes out to about 13 hours, but there is a four hour break, so this is legal. There are two crews based in La Junta, one works Monday to Thursday and the other Friday to Sunday. ( guess which job pays more? )

Last week I was on westbound #3 and we arrived a few minutes early around 5:20 am in Dodge City. I was awake in my sleeper, but then we sat there for about 45 minutes, leaving at about 6:10, making us late. Doing a little research on the smartphone, I found that the eastbound train had been late, not arriving Dodge City until 2:05 am. I did not hear officially that this is what happened, but at the time we left that would have given the crew their four hour break. Evidently the decision was made to have #3 be a little late, rather than call out a relief crew, which would be complicated and expensive in this case. Did I give out too much information? ( I was the crew dispatcher for 20 years, which was about 15 years too long!)

I don't know how the OP feels, but I'd say no, not too much information. It's interesting to read how things work from someone who knows. Anyone not interested doesn't have to read it. Thanks-

As for the train names, since these trains are state supported trains, I am guessing that they wanted to have

a local flavor to these trains, since they serve college populations at Carbondale and Champaign hence the names Saluki and

Illini.

If you notice the early morning departure from Chicago (391) and from Champaign (390) are both called the Saluki,

while the afternoon departure from Chicago (393) and from Champaign (392) are both called the Illini. Even though these are two different train sets.

The City of New Orleans (58/59) also serves this route but is part of the Amtrak national system and often the fares are higher

for travelling between Champaign and Chicago, but you do get a diner/café car.

You are most welcome!

Thanks, Greatcats. I knew something about that wrinkle but not the details. I know they used that on Amtrak Cascades service to Vancouver, with the same crew working both 510 in the morning from Seattle to Vancouver, and back on 517. There is about a 6 hour layover in Vancouver which filled the 4 hour requirement in what is a 14 1/2 hour day (7:30 am departure from Seattle, 10pm(ish, customs delays) arrival. When they started the "second train" (513/516) they started a different rotation, with the crew coming up on 516 taking 517 back the next day after a full rest. That crew may work 516 all the way from Portland, though.

stach23 said:

At 9:35pm, the 393 Illini comes in from Chicago. At 7:30 the next morning, the 390 Saluki leaves Carbondale for Chicago. Does the 393 stay in Carbondale all night (I know one train does) and then wye itself to be the 390 at 7:30? If that's the case, why do they have it to be the 393 Illini going south is also the 390 Saluki going north, and the 391 Saluki going south is also the 392 Illini going north? I mean, why not make the trips the same name? For example, the 390 Saluki leaves Carbondale at 7:30, and arrives in Chicago at 1:00. Does it stay there until 4:05 and become the 393 Illini? And if so, why not call the 393 Illini the 391 Saluki? Make sense?

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The reason that the Illini becomes the Saluki is rather simple. The Illini was originally the only train, save the City of New Orleans, that covered that run from Chicago to Carbondale. Back in 2000 a few years before the Saluki was added to the schedule, the Illini left Chicago at 4:00 PM and Carbondale 4:05 PM, just like it does today.

It would have confused people to suddenly change the name of a train that they'd been using for years when the Saluki was added.

Guest said:

Thanks for the quick response! I have no idea what an NPCU or a Cab Control car is.

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NPCU = Non Powered Control Unit. Basically it's an engine with the diesel engine that used to be inside removed. It still has the controls for an engineer to operate the train and control the engine at the other end of the train.

Cab Control Car is a special passenger car that has a place for an engineer to sit and operate the engine at the other end of the train.

Both of these mean that Amtrak only needs to put a working engine at one end of the train and that it doesn't need to turn the entire train around to go back the other way when it reaches the end of its run.

Thanks so much to all the responses!!! After riding these trains so much, I began to wonder how it all works, and now I know!

AlanB said:

Guest said:

Thanks for the quick response! I have no idea what an NPCU or a Cab Control car is.

Click to expand...

NPCU = Non Powered Control Unit. Basically it's an engine with the diesel engine that used to be inside removed. It still has the controls for an engineer to operate the train and control the engine at the other end of the train.

Cab Control Car is a special passenger car that has a place for an engineer to sit and operate the engine at the other end of the train.

Both of these mean that Amtrak only needs to put a working engine at one end of the train and that it doesn't need to turn the entire train around to go back the other way when it reaches the end of its run.

Click to expand...

I assume the engines/controls are radio connected? The thought being that electrical connections btwn cars/engines could easily become compromised resulting in a non-functional train or worse a run-away one.

Related: the chatter that goes on btwn the control centers and the trains (and probably with the trains), is that listenable with just a vhf radio? I think I've heard said chatter as background to some of the youtube Amtrak videos.

as always: many thanks - greg

gmushial said:

I assume the engines/controls are radio connected? The thought being that electrical connections btwn cars/engines could easily become compromised resulting in a non-functional train or worse a run-away one.
Related: the chatter that goes on btwn the control centers and the trains (and probably with the trains), is that listenable with just a vhf radio? I think I've heard said chatter as background to some of the youtube Amtrak videos.

as always: many thanks - greg

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Greg,

No, the engine is connected via MU cables the run through the cars. Any interruption of the data flow through that cable will result is an immediate emergency brake application. Mind you, I've never had that happen in all of my train riding, both on Amtrak and on commuter lines.

And one can listen in with a scanner that can monitor the correct frequencies. If you head over to www.on-track-on-line.com you can find an entire section on scanners, as well as a list of the frequencies used by Amtrak by route.

So, does the same operating crew that runs the Heartland Flyer to Fort Worth, also run it back to Oklahoma City the same day using the "wrinkle" greatcats mentioned? Or do they do something different?

Most days they are on duty for four hours each way. The crews have many years senority so they can bid on an easy job.

Greatcats here - I was just looking at the schedule of the Heartland Flyer. The running time is a little over four hours each way, plus they are probably on duty at least thirty minutes prior to departure, with likely some off duty time after arrival, so lets say five hours in each direction. The schedule reads that the arrival Oklahoma City and departure the next morning is more than eight hours, so they have proper rest. But if the train was scheduled to arrive at 11pm and was due to leave southbound at 6am, that would still work, as there would be at least a four hour break. To sum it up, as I recall, the crew cannot be " on the rail " more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period. So, if the running time was 7 hours in each direction and there was only a four hour break, then that would not be legal, as that would amount to 14 hours on the rail in a 24 hour period.

I believe the Flyer crews overnight in OKC, then run home in the morning. Theoretically, they could work the broken schedule if they were based in OKC rather than FTW, but being FTW based, they run up in the afternoon, layover around 11 hours or so, then back out the next day with full rest. This gives them a full 12 hour availability if needed, the normal round trip run time of 8 hours, with time before, and after each run, would put them closer to a regular 12 hour day than is a good idea, jsut for planning purposes-One thing goes wrong, and the whole thing falls apart.

The "logical" layover points from the public's view are not always the way things shake out, this being one example. Here's two other examples that might surprise you:

Vermonter

• WAS-NYP (WAS based)
• NYP-NHV (NYP based)
• NHV-SPG (SPG based)
• SPG-SAB Conductors (SPG based)
• SPG-BRA Engineer (BRA based)
• BRA-SAB Engineers (BRA based)

On paper you could theoretically run this train with two crews, WAS-NHV and NHV-SAB. But, there are all kinds of factors that come into play for why the train is staffed the way that it is. Crews that work on the NEC rarely, if ever, overnight anywhere. They go out and come back same day. Also, with the Union contracts there are "prior rights" issues in play and additional restrictions on hours worked. For example, in the Engineers contract if Amtrak wants to run a single Engineer they can only work for up to six hours alone (if an overnight is involved) or ten hours (if the Engineer changes trains). So sometimes you'll see them split up trips where the Engineers routing is completely different from the Conductors. IIRC the CONO is staffed like this:

Conductors

• CHI-CDL (CDL based)
• CDL-YAZ (CDL based)
• YAZ-NOL (NOL based)

Engineer

• CHI-CDL (CDL based)
• CDL-MEM (CDL based)
• MEM-JAN (MEM based)
• JAN-NOL (NOL based)

The only crew that works the length of their run as a unit is the CHI-CDL crew. And why is it set up this way? Savings. This train can run the entire trip with just one Engineer in the cab at a time as opposed to having two Engineers. This translates to huge savings over time when you consider that one Engineer is productive the entire time whereas in a two Engineer situation one guy is almost always "along for the ride" while the other guy is running. The only places where you really see two Engineers these days are places where you're running through unsignaled territory or if it's not practical/safe to run one Engineer due to the territory.

greatcats said:

Greatcats here - I was just looking at the schedule of the Heartland Flyer. The running time is a little over four hours each way, plus they are probably on duty at least thirty minutes prior to departure, with likely some off duty time after arrival, so lets say five hours in each direction. The schedule reads that the arrival Oklahoma City and departure the next morning is more than eight hours, so they have proper rest. But if the train was scheduled to arrive at 11pm and was due to leave southbound at 6am, that would still work, as there would be at least a four hour break. To sum it up, as I recall, the crew cannot be " on the rail " more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period. So, if the running time was 7 hours in each direction and there was only a four hour break, then that would not be legal, as that would amount to 14 hours on the rail in a 24 hour period.

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The railroad hours of service law is still a lot simpler than it is for commercial bus and truck drivers, isn't it, greatcats?

railliner - Yes, I would say it is simpler, but more restrictive in overall hours. When I was last a tour bus driver in Alaska, they had all kinds of screwball calculations of hours as to what one could conceivably work. In Ketchikan, we never drove more than 15 miles from town ( on a mostly roadless island ) but the last year I worked there in 2011, the company, in order to comply, so they said, with bureaucratic regulations, had us " graphing " our every move and brief rest period, which most of us thought was a genuine nuisance.

Battalion - thanks for your what is to me interesting information about the assignment of engineers. As far as I am aware, the SWC operates with two engineers between Albuquerque and Kingman. I asked one of the conductors about the assignment, and he said they make it twice a week, which has an over 24 hour layover in Kingman. Eastbound from ABQ, the crews work three round trips per week to La Junta. The Kingman assignements are the higher seniority trips.

This may have already been covered but keep in mind that southbound and westbound trains have odd numbers. Northbound and easttbound trains have even numbers.

Just in case this has not already been stated.

battalion51 said:

The only places where you really see two Engineers these days are places where you're running through unsignaled territory or if it's not practical/safe to run one Engineer due to the territory.

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The Vermonter route is unsignaled north of White River Junction. Not sure about south thereof, but I think that does have signals.