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Gateway Project/NYP Capacity Improvement


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#41 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:05 PM

How much money could Amtrak get selling the air rights of Block 780 after Penn South gets built?



#42 TVRM610

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:28 PM

Why was guest Andrews locked thread not merged with this thread? Thankfully he dug it up and asked his question again. Would be nice if we encouraged posters and not just locked threads without explanation. :-)
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#43 jis

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:00 AM

It is not even clear that the Block 780 NYPS South will ever be built. It all depends on the complexities of NY Real Estate barons lining up in a particular direction or not. The whole Madison Square Garden Kabuki Dance is but a precursor to the much bogger act to follow.

NYPSS upper level cannot be built without tearing down the existing structures in Block 780 first. Which will mean acquisition of those properties at current market value even if done via eminent domain. Which in itself is going to be expensive, how much no one knows for sure.

#44 AlanB

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:47 AM

Why was guest Andrews locked thread not merged with this thread? Thankfully he dug it up and asked his question again. Would be nice if we encouraged posters and not just locked threads without explanation. :-)

He didn't dig up this thread, Afigg linked him too this thread even as Afigg asked him why he didn't just keep his subsequent questions in this thread in the first place instead of starting a new thread. And I would have hoped that Afigg's post made it rather obvious why it was locked; it was suggested/requested to keep things together.
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#45 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

But if Block 780 is not be able to be acquired, what are alternative ways of increasing capacity into Penn Station from New Jersey (without forgetting the tunnel box)?



#46 jis

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

The tunnel box can provide additional capacity into the current Penn Station with or without Block 780.

The lower level of NYPSS can be built without deconstructing Block 780 provided they can get access to tunneling rights under the existing properties. Other than that there are no other possibilities at present.

Of coruse there is always the possibility of diverting sufficient amount of traffic to elsewhere like by building #7 to Secaucus which could alleviate the need for as much capacity enhancement at NYP as is currently envisaged too. Additionally the L line can be extended to NJ to create further relief.

#47 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:59 AM

1. Which station option (Penn South or deep-level station) would be cheaper?

 

2. I believe that extending the L train into New Jersey would further increase crowding on the already very crowded line. 



#48 AlanB

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:37 PM

2. I believe that extending the L train into New Jersey would further increase crowding on the already very crowded line.

Well in theory the same could be said for the #7 line, one of the most crowded lines in the system. It's the only train that runs with 11 cars, all others max out at 10 or fewer car.

However, both trains are nearly empty by the time they get to the westside of Manhattan; even though they were packed to the rafters 3 stops prior on the eastside of the city.
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#49 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:45 PM

That is true. But with that being said, the Seven Extension would make more sense than the L Train Extension, since the Seven is being extended to the Javits Center. 

 

Apparently, "Mr. Schumer vowed to “scour” the federal government for all available dollars, including bonds and loan programs, to help pay for the Gateway project." http://www.crainsnew...ATION/130539987

 

But even though the Gateway Project is urgently needed, what is a realistic amount Amtrak can receive from Washington for this project? 



#50 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:52 PM

Is the Gateway engineering segment supposed to end at 30th street? (I understand that they said 12th avenue). 

 

What is the status of engineering contracts for the remainder of the Gateway Project?



#51 Guest_vkristof_*

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:18 PM

That is true. But with that being said, the Seven Extension would make more sense than the L Train Extension, since the Seven is being extended to the Javits Center. 

 

Apparently, "Mr. Schumer vowed to “scour” the federal government for all available dollars, including bonds and loan programs, to help pay for the Gateway project." http://www.crainsnew...ATION/130539987

 

But even though the Gateway Project is urgently needed, what is a realistic amount Amtrak can receive from Washington for this project? 

 

Sen. Schumer is good for bringing home the bacon.& I'm happy to see the Hudson Yards tunnel box staring actual construction/demolition now.

 

Since you posted in June we've had a little bit of public back and forth on federal funding in general between Gov Christie and Se. Paul. 

 

IMHO "a realistic amount Amtrak can receive from Washington" is in a totally unrealastic political situation nowadays...



#52 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:38 PM

"Since you posted in June, we have had a little bit of public back and forth on federal funding in general between Gov. Christie and Se. Paul."

 

What does this refer to?



#53 afigg

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:21 PM

 
"Since you posted in June, we have had a little bit of public back and forth on federal funding in general between Gov. Christie and Se. Paul."
 
What does this refer to?
The recent tiff between Gov. Christie (NJ) and Senator Rand Paul (KY) which started with Sen Paul taking a swipe at NJ over the Hurricane Sandy relief funds. Christie pretty much smacked down Sen. Paul. All part of the early jostling (really early) for the 2016 Republican nomination. While entertaining from the bleacher seats, has nothing to do with the Gateway project or the tunnel box construction.

#54 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:24 PM

Even though you think that Amtrak does not appear to be quite the most important topic in Washington, can Amtrak receive Gateway Funding from the next reauthorization bill? 


Edited by Anderson, 14 August 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#55 jphjaxfl

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:47 AM

The poster seems to want to turn this into a political discussion rather than an Amtrak discussion.



#56 jis

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:53 AM

Even though you think that Amtrak does not appear to be quite the most important topic in Washington, can Amtrak receive Gateway Funding from the next reauthorization bill? 
No. Re-authorization bill can authorize all sorts of stuff, but an authorization bill cannot be used to appropriate in general. Without appropriation all the authorization in the world is not worth a hill of beans, and does not result in receiving any funding. Congress traditionally has never appropriated all the money that it authorized for Amtrak.

Also it is more than likely that a significant part of the funding that goes to Gateway won't even go to it through Amtrak and FRA. It is quite likely that a significant portion would come via FTA and State DOTs, which actually makes sense since the predominant user of the new facility will be state commuter railroads and not Amtrak.

Due to a historical accident, Amtrak happens to be stuck being the custodian of the infrastructure. That is why there is serious consideration being given to separate the infrastructure into a separate government funded neutral entity which will sell slots of various quality to various train operating companies including Amtrak, with pricing based on the quality of the slot. Amtrak can then go back to be being a train operating company, which was its original mission. And other train operating companies whether state funded or private funded or jointly funded could enter the open market of operating trains on routes of their choice. All of Europe has moved to this model, no reason that the US could not. My prediction is that there will be tectonic shifts in how passenger rail infrastructure and operations funded in the next five years, before any significant funding becomes available for Gateway. That is why it is even more unpredictable because it is not going to be business as usual, making it harder to even meaningfully speculate.

But no matter what, asking the same question in multiple threads is not going to magically produce a different answer. The bottom line is that it is too early to tell beyond idle and baseless speculation on things like the total amount and when and how it will become available. It is highly unlikely that there will be any significant funding action on Gateway until the NEC Commission works out some cost sharing deal among the states involved, as I have state in another thread where similar questions were asked by the same poster.

#57 the_traveler

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:16 PM

The poster seems to want to turn this into a political discussion rather than an Amtrak discussion.

As both an AU member and as a moderator, I request that this discussion be confined to matters relating to Amtrak and/or trains or NYP only. I request that politics remain out of the conversation.
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#58 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

Is the TEIR 1 PEIS also looking at or reviewing cost-sharing? 



#59 jis

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:18 PM

I posted the link to the entire Tier 1 PEIS. I'd urge you to please go read the entire set of materials available thoroughly first. You will learn exactly what the goals and objectives are of the PEIS, and amazingly will be able to answer the question you ask above all by yourself! :)

#60 Guest_Andrew_*

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

How many trains would the Gateway Tunnels handle without new platforms in Penn Station South?




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