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#1 Guest_Sandra_*

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:48 PM

On long distance trains like the Empire Builder, do both engines pull even when on flat terrain? Or just on inclines? Also, how is the second engine controlled? I could ask the question why second engine is always backwards but I'm guessing it's because the "hook ups" are in the back...no way to hook the back of one engine to the front of another.

I hope these aren't stupid questions

#2 Shortline

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

1349232496[/url]' post='397355']
On long distance trains like the Empire Builder, do both engines pull even when on flat terrain? Or just on inclines? Also, how is the second engine controlled? I could ask the question why second engine is always backwards but I'm guessing it's because the "hook ups" are in the back...no way to hook the back of one engine to the front of another.

I hope these aren't stupid questions


I'll try and take these one at a time-first, usually both engines are "on line" and putting out power when needed, though the engineer can certainly isolate or shut one down en-route for fuel conservation. With both running however, the train will accelerate out of stations faster, among a few other benefits.
The second engine is controlled via the engineer in the lead controlling locomotive. The engines have electrical connections to "MU" (Multiple Unit operation) the locomotives, usually two, sometimes three, occasionally more. The engines all respond to the engineers commands just like the lead locomotive. As in, when he notches up the throttle from 1 to 2, all locomotives respond the same way, turning multiple locomotives into one big locomotive.
The second engine is not always facing the other direction. It can hook up in any manner,either back to back, back to front, front to front, etc-both ends of locomotives have connections to hook up regardless of which way the engine actually faces. It is desirable though, to have them back to back, so there is an engine facing the other way, so the engineer can operate from the other engine if they need to "swap ends" and run the opposite direction. It helps speed the process at the end of the line, that way they won't need to turn the engines around to face the other direction.


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#3 RampWidget

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:32 PM


On long distance trains like the Empire Builder, do both engines pull even when on flat terrain? Or just on inclines? Also, how is the second engine controlled? I could ask the question why second engine is always backwards but I'm guessing it's because the "hook ups" are in the back...no way to hook the back of one engine to the front of another.

I hope these aren't stupid questions


I'll try and take these one at a time-first, usually both engines are "on line" and putting out power when needed, though the engineer can certainly isolate or shut one down en-route for fuel conservation. With both running however, the train will accelerate out of stations faster, among a few other benefits.
The second engine is controlled via the engineer in the lead controlling locomotive. The engines have electrical connections to "MU" (Multiple Unit operation) the locomotives, usually two, sometimes three, occasionally more. The engines all respond to the engineers commands just like the lead locomotive. As in, when he notches up the throttle from 1 to 2, all locomotives respond the same way, turning multiple locomotives into one big locomotive.
The second engine is not always facing the other direction. It can hook up in any manner,either back to back, back to front, front to front, etc-both ends of locomotives have connections to hook up regardless of which way the engine actually faces. It is desirable though, to have them back to back, so there is an engine facing the other way, so the engineer can operate from the other engine if they need to "swap ends" and run the opposite direction. It helps speed the process at the end of the line, that way they won't need to turn the engines around to face the other direction.


Shortline, good, detailed answer. There is another consideration in assembling two-unit consists 'elephant style' (both facing in the same direction) and that is if the lead unit becomes damaged or otherwise incapable of operating as a controlling unit due to a mechanical issue.

Here, the second unit is switched to the lead, the defective unit placed in trail, and the train is on its way again. On most RRs, it's getting more & more difficult to find places to turn locomotives. Having both facing the train's direction of travel seems to be a good hedge against line-of-road problems. I have recently (within the last six months) observed both SIlvers, the A-T, and SWC operating with both units facing in the direction of travel.

And Sandra, your questions are in no way stupid. Its one of those things that on its face should appear obvious... until you start actually pondering it! :hi:

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#4 Swadian Hardcore

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:37 PM

Here is an example of the EB with engines not back-to-back: http://www.railpictu...=290651&nseq=26

Different configurations happen all the time.
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#5 Peter L. Reid

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:40 AM

Thank you. You have explained perfectly something I have wondered watching 3 or 4 engines hauling rice trains past my house. Obviously
engines in 2, 3 or 4 configurations are able to be controlled to go the same way, no matter which way they are facing. In other words forward
and reverse doesn't matter whichever way the engines are facing? If that makes sense.

#6 AlanB

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:46 AM

Thank you. You have explained perfectly something I have wondered watching 3 or 4 engines hauling rice trains past my house. Obviously
engines in 2, 3 or 4 configurations are able to be controlled to go the same way, no matter which way they are facing. In other words forward
and reverse doesn't matter whichever way the engines are facing? If that makes sense.


That is correct. And the engine's computers are smart enough to know which way its facing and they run the traction motors in the correct direction to make the engine move in concert with the rest. So an engine facing backwards to us, knows to run its traction motors in reverse which of course moves it forward.
Alan,

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#7 zephyr17

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:47 AM

Thank you. You have explained perfectly something I have wondered watching 3 or 4 engines hauling rice trains past my house. Obviously
engines in 2, 3 or 4 configurations are able to be controlled to go the same way, no matter which way they are facing. In other words forward
and reverse doesn't matter whichever way the engines are facing? If that makes sense.

Doesn't matter which way the engines face, they just have to be set to run that way. Remember, the engines' traction motors are electric, there is no mechanical drive train. So they will run either way, just set them.
Pre Amtrak: SP Coast Daylight, AT&SF San Diegan, AT&SF Super Chief, D&RGW Rio Grande Zephyr; Amtrak: Southwest Limited/Chief, San Diegan/Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, Cascades, California/San Francisco Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Sunset Limited (LA-ORL), Desert Wind, Pioneer, City of New Orleans, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Lake Shore Limited (NY Section), Cardinal, Hoosier State (Amtrak),  Hoosier State (Iowa Pacific), Ann Rutledge, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, NE Regional, Capitol Limited, Crescent, Acela Express, Lake Shore Limited (Boston Section)
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#8 cirdan

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:31 AM

It helps speed the process at the end of the line, that way they won't need to turn the engines around to face the other direction.


Don't they wye most LD trains? In which case they don't need to detach the engines and run them around the train?

#9 NW cannonball

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:40 AM

Lately, on the freight railroads, first UP and now BNSF, there are remote-controlled pusher engines at the far end of the train that are co-controlled with the leading 2 engines - they all work together for efficiency.

Edited by NW cannonball, 03 October 2012 - 03:41 AM.

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#10 AlanB

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:01 PM


It helps speed the process at the end of the line, that way they won't need to turn the engines around to face the other direction.


Don't they wye most LD trains? In which case they don't need to detach the engines and run them around the train?


That is correct, Amtrak tends to wye most LD's at the end of their runs. But occasionally there isn't time for that, or again if there is a problem while enroute, it can make it easier to double back in the other direction.
Alan,

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#11 TrainLoverJoy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

On long distance trains like the Empire Builder, do both engines pull even when on flat terrain? Or just on inclines? Also, how is the second engine controlled? I could ask the question why second engine is always backwards but I'm guessing it's because the "hook ups" are in the back...no way to hook the back of one engine to the front of another.

I hope these aren't stupid questions


I've noticed some long distance trains (Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans) use only 1 engine pulling sometimes 8 cars. Am I guessing correctly there are no significant inclines on either of these routes and that's the reason 2 engines aren't needed?

#12 MetraUPWest

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

I've noticed some long distance trains (Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans) use only 1 engine pulling sometimes 8 cars. Am I guessing correctly there are no significant inclines on either of these routes and that's the reason 2 engines aren't needed?

In a short answer, yes!

Figured I'd post this link for all of you too, shows you sort of how the engines "talk" to each other. You hook the 27-pin cable in between the engines, so whatever is done from one control stand will be done by all engines on the train.

http://www.railway-t...m/us-musp.shtml

#13 Guest_Nathanael_*

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

I've noticed some long distance trains (Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans) use only 1 engine pulling sometimes 8 cars. Am I guessing correctly there are no significant inclines on either of these routes and that's the reason 2 engines aren't needed?


Those are certainly quite flat routes. I personally don't know if that's *why* they don't have two engines. :-)

The Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Pennsylvanian are routes with very significant grades.

But the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Palmetto, and Crescent are pretty flat routes too. And they usually run with two engines, though, if I'm not mistaken. (Though I guess some of them are pulling a lot more than 8 cars! So maybe that's why.)

(I'm not sure about the grades on the Capitol Limited or the Sunset Limited. Anyone know?)

Now, another couple of thoughts. Elephant-style and back-to-back aren't the only two possible ways to arrange two engines; it would seem to be efficient and flexible to put one in front of the train and one behind the train, push-and-pull. Is there a reason this is done so rarely? Perhaps lack of push-pull wiring on the carriages? (Apparently the entire single-level fleet will have push-pull wiring done by the end of the year -- there's only one cafe left to convert -- but the bilevel fleet probably won't.)

Also, it seems apparent that the need to "turn" the engines is due to having a cab only on one end. The new Siemens electric engines appear from the mockups to have cabs on both ends, so I suppose they won't need to turn -- they'll be operable in both directions. Will Amtrak order double-ended diesels for its next order to eliminate the 'turning'/wyeing requirements for the diesel fleet?

#14 jis

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:08 PM

The Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Pennsylvanian are routes with very significant grades.

The Pennsylvanian runs with one engine all the way, but it has only 6 or 7 cars.

But the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Palmetto, and Crescent are pretty flat routes too. And they usually run with two engines, though, if I'm not mistaken. (Though I guess some of them are pulling a lot more than 8 cars! So maybe that's why.)

Palmetto usually runs with a single engine. The others have two. LSL is the longest single level train.

(I'm not sure about the grades on the Capitol Limited or the Sunset Limited. Anyone know?)

Capitol Limited crosses the same Alleghanies that the Pennsylvanian does. The Cap goes through Cumberland Gap and then climbs the Sand Patch grade. The Sunset should have some grades since the profile of the route has it go below sea level and then climb to couple of thousand feet. I don't know the exact profile of that route enough to know what the ruling gradient is.

Ironically, the steepest grade that the Silvers and Crescent and Palmetto etc. have to climb is done with a single engine. It is the climb through the Hudson Tunnel.

The Silvers do not really absolutely need two engines to keep to their schedule, but CSX likes them to have two.

#15 zephyr17

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:43 PM


The Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Pennsylvanian are routes with very significant grades.

The Pennsylvanian runs with one engine all the way, but it has only 6 or 7 cars.

But the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Palmetto, and Crescent are pretty flat routes too. And they usually run with two engines, though, if I'm not mistaken. (Though I guess some of them are pulling a lot more than 8 cars! So maybe that's why.)

Palmetto usually runs with a single engine. The others have two. LSL is the longest single level train.

(I'm not sure about the grades on the Capitol Limited or the Sunset Limited. Anyone know?)

Capitol Limited crosses the same Alleghanies that the Pennsylvanian does. The Cap goes through Cumberland Gap and then climbs the Sand Patch grade. The Sunset should have some grades since the profile of the route has it go below sea level and then climb to couple of thousand feet. I don't know the exact profile of that route enough to know what the ruling gradient is.

Ironically, the steepest grade that the Silvers and Crescent and Palmetto etc. have to climb is done with a single engine. It is the climb through the Hudson Tunnel.

The Silvers do not really absolutely need two engines to keep to their schedule, but CSX likes them to have two.

Sunset is far from flat. It has to go up 2% grades at Beaumont Pass, more grades around Vail, AZ and has to climb through Paisano Pass in Texas, which also has some 2% grades.

Also, Southwest Chief has the worst grades, with 3%+ grades at Raton and if they use the 3% "South" track in Cajon Pass (which often do, as they can get up that grade better than a frieght can). Most mainlines grades held to around 2 - 2.2%. I think the ex-GN the Empire Builder uses holds the grades down to around 1%.

Superliners generally do not have push-pull cabling in the cars. There are a couple of exceptions, the damaged ones that CalTrans paid to have fixed up and are being used on the San Joaquins and the Surfliners have the necessary equipment for push-pull operation.

Edited by zephyr17, 03 October 2012 - 07:50 PM.

Pre Amtrak: SP Coast Daylight, AT&SF San Diegan, AT&SF Super Chief, D&RGW Rio Grande Zephyr; Amtrak: Southwest Limited/Chief, San Diegan/Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, Cascades, California/San Francisco Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Sunset Limited (LA-ORL), Desert Wind, Pioneer, City of New Orleans, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Lake Shore Limited (NY Section), Cardinal, Hoosier State (Amtrak),  Hoosier State (Iowa Pacific), Ann Rutledge, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, NE Regional, Capitol Limited, Crescent, Acela Express, Lake Shore Limited (Boston Section)
Via Rail Canada: Via Canadian (CP route), Via Super Continental, Via Atlantic Limited, Via Hudson Bay, Via Skeena, Via Canadian (CN route), Via "Corridor" (Toronto-Montreal); 
Other: BC Rail Cariboo Dayliner, Alaska Railroad, Eurostar, Thalys, DB, Netherlands Rail, Austrian Railways, BR, Korail (conventional), Korail KTX

#16 OlympianHiawatha

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

Our Heartland Flyer carries an engine on both ends to eliminate having to turn the entire train in OKC or FTW. Lately is has been a P42 on both ends but for about a year P32 #500 was a regular since it was testing the Biofuel. With her normal consist of 3 cars, it almost looks like overkill with 2 engines.

#17 zephyr17

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

Our Heartland Flyer carries an engine on both ends to eliminate having to turn the entire train in OKC or FTW. Lately is has been a P42 on both ends but for about a year P32 #500 was a regular since it was testing the Biofuel. With her normal consist of 3 cars, it almost looks like overkill with 2 engines.

But both probably are not working, since the there are no control lines through the train. It may on but idling (the practice of letting locomotives sit and idle, I frankly do not understand) So it is likely pulling the engine at the end as just part of the train.
Pre Amtrak: SP Coast Daylight, AT&SF San Diegan, AT&SF Super Chief, D&RGW Rio Grande Zephyr; Amtrak: Southwest Limited/Chief, San Diegan/Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, Cascades, California/San Francisco Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Sunset Limited (LA-ORL), Desert Wind, Pioneer, City of New Orleans, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Lake Shore Limited (NY Section), Cardinal, Hoosier State (Amtrak),  Hoosier State (Iowa Pacific), Ann Rutledge, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, NE Regional, Capitol Limited, Crescent, Acela Express, Lake Shore Limited (Boston Section)
Via Rail Canada: Via Canadian (CP route), Via Super Continental, Via Atlantic Limited, Via Hudson Bay, Via Skeena, Via Canadian (CN route), Via "Corridor" (Toronto-Montreal); 
Other: BC Rail Cariboo Dayliner, Alaska Railroad, Eurostar, Thalys, DB, Netherlands Rail, Austrian Railways, BR, Korail (conventional), Korail KTX

#18 OlympianHiawatha

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:34 PM


Our Heartland Flyer carries an engine on both ends to eliminate having to turn the entire train in OKC or FTW. Lately is has been a P42 on both ends but for about a year P32 #500 was a regular since it was testing the Biofuel. With her normal consist of 3 cars, it almost looks like overkill with 2 engines.

But both probably are not working, since the there are no control lines through the train. It may on but idling (the practice of letting locomotives sit and idle, I frankly do not understand) So it is likely pulling the engine at the end as just part of the train.


In the case of the Flyer, the Superliners allow train control to pass through and whenever I have gotten off in Norman and been standing near the trailing locomotive, you can hear it throttle up in synch with the lead.

#19 zephyr17

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:55 PM



Our Heartland Flyer carries an engine on both ends to eliminate having to turn the entire train in OKC or FTW. Lately is has been a P42 on both ends but for about a year P32 #500 was a regular since it was testing the Biofuel. With her normal consist of 3 cars, it almost looks like overkill with 2 engines.

But both probably are not working, since the there are no control lines through the train. It may on but idling (the practice of letting locomotives sit and idle, I frankly do not understand) So it is likely pulling the engine at the end as just part of the train.


In the case of the Flyer, the Superliners allow train control to pass through and whenever I have gotten off in Norman and been standing near the trailing locomotive, you can hear it throttle up in synch with the lead.

Thanks for the correct info! I thought only the Superliners repaired for CalTrans use had control lines. Do all Superliners?

Edited by zephyr17, 03 October 2012 - 08:56 PM.

Pre Amtrak: SP Coast Daylight, AT&SF San Diegan, AT&SF Super Chief, D&RGW Rio Grande Zephyr; Amtrak: Southwest Limited/Chief, San Diegan/Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, Cascades, California/San Francisco Zephyr, Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, Sunset Limited (LA-ORL), Desert Wind, Pioneer, City of New Orleans, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Lake Shore Limited (NY Section), Cardinal, Hoosier State (Amtrak),  Hoosier State (Iowa Pacific), Ann Rutledge, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, NE Regional, Capitol Limited, Crescent, Acela Express, Lake Shore Limited (Boston Section)
Via Rail Canada: Via Canadian (CP route), Via Super Continental, Via Atlantic Limited, Via Hudson Bay, Via Skeena, Via Canadian (CN route), Via "Corridor" (Toronto-Montreal); 
Other: BC Rail Cariboo Dayliner, Alaska Railroad, Eurostar, Thalys, DB, Netherlands Rail, Austrian Railways, BR, Korail (conventional), Korail KTX

#20 AlanB

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:57 PM


In the case of the Flyer, the Superliners allow train control to pass through and whenever I have gotten off in Norman and been standing near the trailing locomotive, you can hear it throttle up in synch with the lead.


Thanks for the correct info! I thought only the Superliners repaired for CalTrans use had control lines. Do all Superliners?


Amtrak specially modified selected Superliner cars with the control cables to operate on the Flyer. But no, not all Superliners have been modified.

You can get at least a partial listing of the cars here.
Alan,

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