Jump to content




Help Support AmtrakTrains.com by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.

Photo

Sumitomo/Siemens Contract for 137 Cars (former bi-levels)


  • Please log in to reply
954 replies to this topic

#41 Dutchrailnut

Dutchrailnut

    Conductor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 965 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brookfield, Connecticut, USA
  • Interests:Ships, Planes, Trains

Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:58 AM

I think the Horizons would be best suited for the NEC. They would probably be too uncomfortable for long haul use.


problem with Horizons on NEC is they do not have elecric doors or door trainlines/door control stations.

Edited by Dutchrailnut, 02 October 2012 - 03:58 AM.


#42 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:26 AM


I think the Horizons would be best suited for the NEC. They would probably be too uncomfortable for long haul use.


problem with Horizons on NEC is they do not have elecric doors or door trainlines/door control stations.

That is precisely why I think Horizons will go to LDs and Medium distance trains before they will go to NEC Regionals. OTOH, Amfleets will definitely go to the NEC Regionals.

#43 Amtrak Cajun

Amtrak Cajun

    Conductor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 667 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lafayette Louisiana
  • Interests:Amtrak, Building Computers, Amtrak, traveling in general, and umm did i mention AMTRAK!!!!

Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:38 AM

Thanks for the correction about the Horizon doors. Well, whatever Amtrak decides should be ok. It is fun to speculate though.
Im Anthony.

Allll Aboooarrdd!!!!

#44 afigg

afigg

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,878 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

Could the new bilevels serve as LD units? Or would Superliner 3's be different enough to warrant seperate orders?

The coach cars could be adopted with LD seats and seat spacing. Which may be the plan, once Amtrak can line up the funding to begin replacement of the Superliner Is. The most serious shortage that Amtrak faces with the Superliners are sleeper cars. The new bi-level car design of course would have to be extensively reconfigured for use as sleeper cars, diner cars, sightseer lounge cars, and trans-dorms if Amtrak want to retain the trans-dorm configuration. All of which would have to be a new order and contract.

Amtrak states in the Fleet Strategy Plan that the plan is to base the Superliner replacements on the new bi-level design and car order. That would mean a bi-level/Superliner III fleet where the LD and corridor cars share the same frame, trucks, windows, many of the same parts which will keep maintenance and spare part inventory costs down.

#45 afigg

afigg

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,878 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:46 AM

Corridor service in the South might or might not go bilevel. At the present time, the big hangup is that for anything running into VA and NC, there's a big desire to run trains up the NEC to at least NYP (as is the case with both the Carolinian and the VA Regionals), not to mention that you've got the Crescent and Silver Service running through the region regardless. I suspect this desire will at least limit the ability to run bilevels in the region, since your trains along these lines will have to be compatible with anything running north of DC and since a notable minority of new trains are quite possibly going to be running north of DC themselves. The big exception to this might be Florida: Though you've got the Silver Service running down there as well, it is quite possible that the solution might be to have the operations down there use bilevels for the corridor service(s) and just have a "fig leaf" high level platform for one or two cars.

I'll note that another thing Amtrak might be able to do with NC, should the latter desire to expand service at some point in the future, is to "sell" them the Horizons as Amtrak acquires new rolling stock. NC is a bit wacky in terms of their equipment, though, so there is no telling what they are going to want to do if they add any frequencies.

Raleigh, Savannah, Jacksonville FL, and Tampa are all funded to build high level platforms to comply with the recent USDOT mandated level boarding requirement. Whether Jacksonville and Tampa could also retain low level platforms that could be used by Superliners or bi-levels, don't know. What happens to the platforms for the Sunrail commuter stations which will be shared with the Amtrak Silver trains in central Florida, don't know. The USDOT cutoff was February 1, 2012 where the new rule does not apply to construction contracts, including a commitment to a specific design, which were signed before then. The cutoff date probably means the Miami Central Station, which is to get thousand foot long platforms, will be low level, either 8" or 15" ATR.

The USDOT rule for level boarding platforms will have a complicated impact on where the bi-level and single level cars operate. if they have to build two mini-high platforms with ramps and bridgeplates, one for 48" ATR and one for 15" ATR, at each mixed use station, that could get a bit expensive. My guess is that for Amtrak, the east coast from Maine to the northern Florida border will be the domain of single level cars. Florida may see both, depending on what Sunrail and the FEC do.

As for NC, the HSIPR grants provide funding to refurbish additional equipment, enough for a 3rd daily Piedmont and maybe for 4 daily Piedmonts, but I have to check on whether the funding cover 4 daily Piedmonts. Bu the time NC would be looking to acquire additional equipment, a large combined order of new single level coach cars should be underway.

#46 Amtrak Cajun

Amtrak Cajun

    Conductor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 667 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lafayette Louisiana
  • Interests:Amtrak, Building Computers, Amtrak, traveling in general, and umm did i mention AMTRAK!!!!

Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

Afigg, thank you for the kind explanation there. :D
Im Anthony.

Allll Aboooarrdd!!!!

#47 Paulus

Paulus

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:14 PM

My major concern is whether these will weigh the same as the bloated Superliners (why are they and their Hi-Level predecessors so heavy anyhow?) or whether they'll be in line with other bilevel cars and be about 15-20 tons less. It's not a trivial concern as the added weight impairs acceleration and fuel economy.

#48 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

My major concern is whether these will weigh the same as the bloated Superliners (why are they and their Hi-Level predecessors so heavy anyhow?) or whether they'll be in line with other bilevel cars and be about 15-20 tons less. It's not a trivial concern as the added weight impairs acceleration and fuel economy.

The specification says they must weigh less than 150,000lb (Coach) to 154,000lb (Coach-Baggage). The current Superliners weigh in at something like 148,000lb (Coach). The current California Cars are a little heavier. The California Cars are already capable of 125mph, though they have nowhere to run that fast.

The Go Transit style Bombardier (ex- Hawker-Siddeley) lozenges are about 110,000lb, but generally have less space capacity than Superliners and are also less robust in collisions.

If there was real interest in running an energy efficient operation at 125 mhp then the double decker cars would look and weigh more like the TGV Duplex or the Shinkansen Green Cars, and not the behemoths that the Superliners are. But that is clearly not where the focus is. These cars have to run in the wild west where truck drivers think it is their birth right to plow straight through a train at a grade crossing and such :)

#49 Ziv

Ziv

    OBS Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 385 posts

Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:45 PM

Follow the link to see what an Amtrak train looks like after being hit by a loaded semi truck yesterday. Not bad. Not one fatality, worst injury appears to be a broken leg that a passenger suffered when they fell. And, as the link suggests, the crossing gate was down. Given that the truck hit the car behind the engine, I would guess the truck lost its brakes. That is a driver that has a story to tell...

http://www.foxnews.c...-official-says/

#50 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:54 PM

Follow the link to see what an Amtrak train looks like after being hit by a loaded semi truck yesterday. Not bad. Not one fatality, worst injury appears to be a broken leg that a passenger suffered when they fell. And, as the link suggests, the crossing gate was down. Given that the truck hit the car behind the engine, I would guess the truck lost its brakes. That is a driver that has a story to tell...

http://www.foxnews.c...-official-says/

The train was in push mode. The truck hit the car ahead of the engine, so three or four cars behind the lead cab car.

#51 VentureForth

VentureForth

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,477 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Richmond Hill, GA

Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

Follow the link to see what an Amtrak train looks like after being hit by a loaded semi truck yesterday. Not bad. Not one fatality, worst injury appears to be a broken leg that a passenger suffered when they fell. And, as the link suggests, the crossing gate was down. Given that the truck hit the car behind the engine, I would guess the truck lost its brakes. That is a driver that has a story to tell...

http://www.foxnews.c...-official-says/


Cool:

The track, meanwhile, reopened Tuesday morning after crews replaced hundreds of feet of damaged track and some signal equipment, BNSF Railway spokeswoman Lena Kent said. BNSF owns the line.


14,223 Amtrak Miles. Many more to go.
Completed Routes: Capitol Limited, Palmetto
Also Ridden: Carolinian, Crescent, Pacific Surfliner, Piedmont, Southwest Chief, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Texas Eagle


#52 Ziv

Ziv

    OBS Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 385 posts

Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

That would explain why the car on the far left in the photo below looks to be fine. I still have a hard time getting used to the locomotive being in the back of the consist, it seems to be arsey-versey somehow. Not quite cats and dogs living together in harmony kind of wrong, but...

http://ww1.hdnux.com...4/3/628x471.jpg


Just kidding. Sort of.



Follow the link to see what an Amtrak train looks like after being hit by a loaded semi truck yesterday. Not bad. Not one fatality, worst injury appears to be a broken leg that a passenger suffered when they fell. And, as the link suggests, the crossing gate was down. Given that the truck hit the car behind the engine, I would guess the truck lost its brakes. That is a driver that has a story to tell...

http://www.foxnews.c...-official-says/

The train was in push mode. The truck hit the car ahead of the engine, so three or four cars behind the lead cab car.


Edited by Ziv, 02 October 2012 - 04:25 PM.


#53 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,407 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:10 AM


I think the Horizons would be best suited for the NEC. They would probably be too uncomfortable for long haul use.


problem with Horizons on NEC is they do not have elecric doors or door trainlines/door control stations.


I do not understand, how does that prevent Horizons from being used on the NEC?

MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
A MILLION MILES A DAY
DETROIT DIESEL 6067BK28


#54 AlanB

AlanB

    Engineer

  • Honored Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 29,357 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, New York

Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:27 AM

I do not understand, how does that prevent Horizons from being used on the NEC?


On the NEC you can have 9 to 10 car long trains. There are only 2 conductors. There are lots of stops along the way. If the conductors can't hit 1 button to open all the doors at the same time, it's going to be a very big problem. A problem for the riders who want off, a problem for the conductors trying to fight their way through the crowds to open the doors, and a problem for the dispatchers when the train takes 5 to 10 minutes longer per stop to load & unload.

Out in the midwest the Horizon's work because most stops don't need all doors to be opened, except when you get to Chicago. One can get away with the conductors only opening a couple of doors. Can't do that on the NEC.
Alan,

Take care and take trains!

#55 PerRock

PerRock

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,660 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ann Arbor, MI
  • Interests:Passenger Rail, Auran Trainz, Traveling, Graphic Design

Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:39 AM

Railway Age is reporting the Sumitomo is getting the bid for these cars...
http://www.railwayag...41#.UGw_Efk5xHs

The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) on Thursday said that, on behalf of the departments of transportation from Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri, it has issued a Notice of Intent to Award to Sumitomo Corp. of America to design, build, and deliver 130 bilevel passenger railcars for use in regional intercity rail corridors in California and the Midwest.


peter
Given the choice; I fly Amtrak.
 
http://www.amtraktrainz.com

#56 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:54 AM

Railway Age is reporting the Sumitomo is getting the bid for these cars...
http://www.railwayag...41#.UGw_Efk5xHs

The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) on Thursday said that, on behalf of the departments of transportation from Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri, it has issued a Notice of Intent to Award to Sumitomo Corp. of America to design, build, and deliver 130 bilevel passenger railcars for use in regional intercity rail corridors in California and the Midwest.


peter

This has been discussed before. It is a jointly owned subsidiary of Sumitomo and Nippo-Sharyo, such that both can claim to be getting the order. The ways of Japanese Kairetsus are hard to decipher sometimes.

#57 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:34 AM


I do not understand, how does that prevent Horizons from being used on the NEC?


On the NEC you can have 9 to 10 car long trains. There are only 2 conductors. There are lots of stops along the way. If the conductors can't hit 1 button to open all the doors at the same time, it's going to be a very big problem. A problem for the riders who want off, a problem for the conductors trying to fight their way through the crowds to open the doors, and a problem for the dispatchers when the train takes 5 to 10 minutes longer per stop to load & unload.

Out in the midwest the Horizon's work because most stops don't need all doors to be opened, except when you get to Chicago. One can get away with the conductors only opening a couple of doors. Can't do that on the NEC.


This is something I've only learned recently (the problem with the Horizons). With that said, I could see Horizons put on a few of the oddball trains in the region (such as 66/67, which is both shorter than your average Regional and not in any big hurry due to the need to arrive at WAS and BOS at decent times or the NHV-SPG Shuttle) or on some routes attached to the NEC (such as the NYP-ALB Empire trains or the Downeaster) that run shorter consists.
Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#58 Guest_Nathanael_*

Guest_Nathanael_*
  • Guests

Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:40 AM

This is something I've only learned recently (the problem with the Horizons). With that said, I could see Horizons put on a few of the oddball trains in the region (such as 66/67, which is both shorter than your average Regional and not in any big hurry due to the need to arrive at WAS and BOS at decent times or the NHV-SPG Shuttle) or on some routes attached to the NEC (such as the NYP-ALB Empire trains or the Downeaster) that run shorter consists.


Perhaps the Carolinian and Palmetto are the most likely choices, along with 66/67.

#59 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Gathering Team Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:13 PM


This is something I've only learned recently (the problem with the Horizons). With that said, I could see Horizons put on a few of the oddball trains in the region (such as 66/67, which is both shorter than your average Regional and not in any big hurry due to the need to arrive at WAS and BOS at decent times or the NHV-SPG Shuttle) or on some routes attached to the NEC (such as the NYP-ALB Empire trains or the Downeaster) that run shorter consists.


Perhaps the Carolinian and Palmetto are the most likely choices, along with 66/67.

Yeah, the few Amfleet Is could be substituted by Horizons on the Palmetto. Palmetto carries some two or three Amfleet IIs too. Palmetto is officially an LD train though it does not travel overnight. It is also one of the fastest LD trains, and if CSX could dispatch a little more dependably, it could be a bit faster too.

#60 bmorechris

bmorechris

    Service Attendant

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 65 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baltimore, MD
  • Interests:Trains, local transportation history, mechanical/marine engineering, travel

Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

I for one hope this is not a one-and-done order, and that it will lead to a sustained long-term program of Superliner long distance equipment replacement as well as additional corridor equipment. (unfortunately "long-term" seems to be a dirty word in Amtrak land due to the whims of politicians). Looking at the specification, they have notional designs for a coach, cab/baggage/coach, and cafe. It should be pretty simply to make any necessary mods to allow the same carbody to be used for long distance cars (converting to single doors on each side, having only one staircase between levels). Even if it was only a few cars a month, if it could be sustained for years it would go a long way towards updating the fleet. (I hope the same happens with the Viewliner II line, continue to churn out additional cars (including Viewliner coaches) for years to begin replacement of the single level fleet.)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users