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darien-l

OBS Chief
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
593
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
Is it just me, or has the noise level increased significantly on long distance trains lately? I don't mean train noise, I mean human-produced noise. I just got off a train that shall go unnamed for the time being, and it's been the worst one so far in terms of noise. In the sightseer lounge, lots of loud conversations, people screaming into cell phones, lots of little kids running around yelling and hollering, and people listening to music with no headphones. To top things off, the cafe attendant downstairs brought a little portable stereo and decided to impose her taste in music on everyone within earshot, and some of said music had quite objectionable lyrics and lots of f-words and n-words. I know an argument can be made that the lounge car is supposed to be a "social experience" and therefore a noisy environment, but things weren't much better at my coach seat, either. Same issues with kids running around out of control, parents yelling at their kids, lots of loud conversations, annoying cell phone ringtones, etc. Again, I understand that this is public transportation and don't expect complete silence, but it's definitely an issue when the noise levels are unrelenting throughout the train (with the exception of the sleepers, of course) and you feel like you can't have a single moment of peace and quiet. Next time I'll try bringing ear plugs and riding in lower level coach -- that seems to be the quietest place. NEC trains have a "quiet car" in the back -- why can't LD trains have at least a "quiet section", maybe in lower level coach in one of the cars?
 
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Sleepers are still very quiet and peaceful. Great place to rest from outside chaos. The lounge car on my train was not too loud, but the diner was especially chaotic, same thing with kids screaming and people complaining like, "I asked her three times for water, AND SHE NEVER GAVE ME ANY!" or "This is horrible service. Terribly disappointed." I was not as unhappy as they were, one crew was great, the other not much much, but not horrible, either.
 
Summertime with vacationing families is definitely noisey, but offensive lyrics from blaring stereos should not be tolerated and should be reported directly to the conductor. Having just completed 4 segments on Amtrak western LD trains, I can agree---the trains are full and noisy. It was especially noisy between Las Vegas and Lamy, NM on #3, as about 30 elementary age children boarded the train for their "Training Camp Day", I think their leaders and the rest of the pax on board were relieved when they detrained at Lamy.
 
darien-l said:
Is it just me, or has the noise level increased significantly on long distance trains lately? I don't mean train noise, I mean human-produced noise. I just got off a train that shall go unnamed for the time being, and it's been the worst one so far in terms of noise. In the sightseer lounge, lots of loud conversations, people screaming into cell phones, lots of little kids running around yelling and hollering, and people listening to music with no headphones. To top things off, the cafe attendant downstairs brought a little portable stereo and decided to impose her taste in music on everyone within earshot, and some of said music had quite objectionable lyrics and lots of f-words and n-words.
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That should not have been tolerated for one tiny instant :excl: Especially with kids within earshot??? :blink: As stated elsewhere, time to get the conductor or OBS chief involved. :ph34r:

darien-l said:
I know an argument can be made that the lounge car is supposed to be a "social experience" and therefore a noisy environment, but things weren't much better at my coach seat, either. Same issues with kids running around out of control, parents yelling at their kids, lots of loud conversations, annoying cell phone ringtones, etc. Again, I understand that this is public transportation and don't expect complete silence, but it's definitely an issue when the noise levels are unrelenting throughout the train (with the exception of the sleepers, of course) and you feel like you can't have a single moment of peace and quiet. Next time I'll try bringing ear plugs and riding in lower level coach -- that seems to be the quietest place. NEC trains have a "quiet car" in the back -- why can't LD trains have at least a "quiet section", maybe in lower level coach in one of the cars?
Click to expand...
Frankly, the sleeper cars aren't that much helpful either... See this previous thread Post # 13 ... :)
 
I live near an Amtrak/Southern Pacific train line in downtown Davis, CA. The noise pollution from Amtrak trains fluctuates based on their use of horns. The trains themselves are lighter than the cargo trains that pass through and squeal. However, the horn-blowing seems to have increased, even over the past couple weeks. It is my understanding that Amtrak trains exhibit a signature double-honk when exiting the station. This is pollution and annoying, especially because it is branding. Amtrak is the only passenger train choice in the area, so it seems like a waste of my nerves to have to hear their advertising horns. What really bothers me, and is prompting me to take action in my community is the excessive honking. Some trains honk continually and these include late night trains and early morning trains. Sometimes this excessive honking is even in the form of a song. Before living in this community I was an Amtrak customer, now, because of the noise pollution I experience every day, as well as the diesel pollution that covers my apartment with soot, I no longer support Amtrak. Are there others in my community that are victim to Amtrak and SP's noise pollution? I am sure that the horn volume surpasses all limits of safe noise pollution. I do not suggest a ban, but from my experience living on the train line, there is no respect for local residents and no limit to the amount of noise Amtrak trains are allowed to make. Any help or information you can provide would be helpful. I am working to create an ordinance to limit honking by train operators in my area. Thank you, Marisa McCune. mmccune3 (at) my.smccd.edu
 
The horn pattern is not advertising or a song. It's federally mandated. Just like the lights and bells at the crossings, the horn is blown for safety.

The double blast you hear means the train is leaving the station. That, and the pattern you hear at crossings, is the same across the nation, regardless of how much rail service there is in the area. It has absolutely nothing to do with riding Amtrak.

You and your neighbors can speak to the city about how to go about petitioning for a "Quiet Zone". Some communities have done this successfully, but I'm not sure what's involved in the process. The city/county could let you know.
 
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Marisa said:
I live near an Amtrak/Southern Pacific train line in downtown Davis, CA. The noise pollution from Amtrak trains fluctuates based on their use of horns. The trains themselves are lighter than the cargo trains that pass through and squeal. However, the horn-blowing seems to have increased, even over the past couple weeks. It is my understanding that Amtrak trains exhibit a signature double-honk when exiting the station. This is pollution and annoying, especially because it is branding. Amtrak is the only passenger train choice in the area, so it seems like a waste of my nerves to have to hear their advertising horns. What really bothers me, and is prompting me to take action in my community is the excessive honking. Some trains honk continually and these include late night trains and early morning trains. Sometimes this excessive honking is even in the form of a song. Before living in this community I was an Amtrak customer, now, because of the noise pollution I experience every day, as well as the diesel pollution that covers my apartment with soot, I no longer support Amtrak. Are there others in my community that are victim to Amtrak and SP's noise pollution? I am sure that the horn volume surpasses all limits of safe noise pollution. I do not suggest a ban, but from my experience living on the train line, there is no respect for local residents and no limit to the amount of noise Amtrak trains are allowed to make. Any help or information you can provide would be helpful. I am working to create an ordinance to limit honking by train operators in my area. Thank you, Marisa McCune. mmccune3 (at) my.smccd.edu
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Um, the OP did not mean the sweet sounds that trains produce, rather the noise ON TRAINS from fellow passengers!
 
SarahZ said:
Some communities have done this successfully, but I'm not sure what's involved in the process. The city/county could let you know.
Click to expand...
My community is one of those that have done it recently, less than two years ago. I think simply it took a vote of the city council to ban train horns within city limits. Not only do I miss hearing the trains, it's weird not hearing the warning blasts at crossings. OTOH, my mom lives in Holland, MI only two blocks from the Amtrak station and the sound of the trains (like my current residence, a very busy freight railway near downtown) are very second nature to the residents. She has no complaints whatsoever.

In regards to the OP's complaints.....the best thing you can do about the noisy trip you had is call Amtrak Customer Relations and talk to someone about your experience.
 
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Ditto, Tim. We live near the Amtrak crossing(s) and train station on purpose. I love the sound of trains.

We also have a lot of emergency vehicle traffic on our street. My parents HATE coming to visit because they can't sleep, and I can't sleep at their place in northern Michigan because it's too quiet. ;)
 
Over the years I have traveled on Amtrak I haven't noticed too much of an increase in noise, even with the coming of computers, cell phones and other such electronics. And kids today are just as noisy as they were 20-30 years ago-something we just have to put up with. Fortunately most of this noise ends up in the Lounge Car where it can run the gamut of being pleasant and tolerable to near unbearable.
 
I've been on a few trains where employees played their music. I even like some of it. But I use headphones for mine, and listen to it in my room. The employees should not be playing their music where passengers can hear it. Period. whether it is Ice cube or Frank Sinatra.
 
Steve4031 said:
I've been on a few trains where employees played their music. I even like some of it. But I use headphones for mine, and listen to it in my room. The employees should not be playing their music where passengers can hear it. Period. whether it is Ice cube or Frank Sinatra.
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Agreed. Passengers are required to use headphones/earbuds. Why aren't employees adhering to the same requirement?
 
darien-l said:
NEC trains have a "quiet car" in the back -- why can't LD trains have at least a "quiet section", maybe in lower level coach in one of the cars?
Click to expand...
If it were up to me *all* cars would be quiet cars except for one car at the front of the train next to the locomotives that would be set aside for obnoxious kids, phone drones, musical menaces, blabbermouths, and other noise polluters.

Maybe it's time to start treating clueless noise addicts the same way we treat nicotine addicts?
 
tim54449 said:
My community is one of those that have done it recently, less than two years ago. I think simply it took a vote of the city council to ban train horns within city limits.
Click to expand...
Tim,

It takes far more than a simple vote by the city council. It requires funding from the city council to add special equipment to the grade crossing, and then the town/city must apply to the FRA for a waiver on horn blowing because they've done the required work to keep the public safe; at least in theory.

But no town/city can simply order the trains to stop blowing their horn. That is a Federal law and any town ordnance is superseded by the Federal laws.
 
Marisa said:
However, the horn-blowing seems to have increased, even over the past couple weeks.
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Amtrak doesn't blow the horn just because they can. That would be a violation of Federal law. They have rules that they must obey.

Marisa said:
It is my understanding that Amtrak trains exhibit a signature double-honk when exiting the station. This is pollution and annoying, especially because it is branding.
Click to expand...
Any train, Amtrak or not, is required by law to toot twice when it starts moving. It's not branding, it's the law!

Marisa said:
Amtrak is the only passenger train choice in the area, so it seems like a waste of my nerves to have to hear their advertising horns.
Click to expand...
It's not advertising. It is the law!

Marisa said:
What really bothers me, and is prompting me to take action in my community is the excessive honking. Some trains honk continually and these include late night trains and early morning trains.
Click to expand...
Again, except in an emergency situation like a trespasser on the tracks, there are specific rules on when a train blows its horn.

Marisa said:
as well as the diesel pollution that covers my apartment with soot,
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If you've got soot in your apartment, then it's most likely from the freight trains and the local cars & trucks.

Marisa said:
I do not suggest a ban, but from my experience living on the train line, there is no respect for local residents and no limit to the amount of noise Amtrak trains are allowed to make. Any help or information you can provide would be helpful. I am working to create an ordinance to limit honking by train operators in my area.
Click to expand...
My advice is, please don't waste your time. There is no local ordinance that can supersede Federal law. Federal law says that the trains must blow their horn for specific things. Any local ordinance would simply be ignored by the various trains, and if the city tried to enforce it with the police, it would go to court and be struck down in a Federal court. Several cities have tried in the past and all have lost.

If you want to limit the noise, then you would be better off expending your energies to get the City of Davis to find the money to pay for enhanced grade crossing equipment, so that the city could then apply for a quiet zone. This is the only way to obtain relief. A local law will never achieve it.
 
Alan,

Would I be correct in saying that, even with an FRA-approved "Quiet Zone" for the City of Davis (which, mind you, has only one grade crossing in the entire city which Amtrak trains pass through) that trains would still be required to blow their horn to signal their movement?

Davis and the UP mainline that traverses it is completely grade-separated from city streets, with the only exception being Arboretum Drive on the UC Davis campus. That is not to say that there are not a multitude of grade crossings in the city, but every single other one is along the former SP Westside Line which is currently operated by the California Northern Railroad. This is a 100% short-line freight railroad, and from my recollection, makes most of their movements to the Union Pacific interchange at night after Amtrak passenger traffic has stopped.
 
tim54449 said:
SarahZ said:
Some communities have done this successfully, but I'm not sure what's involved in the process. The city/county could let you know.
Click to expand...
My community is one of those that have done it recently, less than two years ago. I think simply it took a vote of the city council to ban train horns within city limits.
Click to expand...
Not by a long shot. There is a fairly comprehensive set of requirements laid out in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Much of it relates to details of specific requirements for protection at grade crossings. Google quiet zone.
 
Marisa said:
I live near an Amtrak/Southern Pacific train line in downtown Davis, CA. The noise pollution from Amtrak trains fluctuates based on their use of horns. The trains themselves are lighter than the cargo trains that pass through and squeal. However, the horn-blowing seems to have increased, even over the past couple weeks. It is my understanding that Amtrak trains exhibit a signature double-honk when exiting the station. This is pollution and annoying, especially because it is branding. Amtrak is the only passenger train choice in the area, so it seems like a waste of my nerves to have to hear their advertising horns. What really bothers me, and is prompting me to take action in my community is the excessive honking. Some trains honk continually and these include late night trains and early morning trains. Sometimes this excessive honking is even in the form of a song. Before living in this community I was an Amtrak customer, now, because of the noise pollution I experience every day, as well as the diesel pollution that covers my apartment with soot, I no longer support Amtrak. Are there others in my community that are victim to Amtrak and SP's noise pollution? I am sure that the horn volume surpasses all limits of safe noise pollution. I do not suggest a ban, but from my experience living on the train line, there is no respect for local residents and no limit to the amount of noise Amtrak trains are allowed to make. Any help or information you can provide would be helpful. I am working to create an ordinance to limit honking by train operators in my area. Thank you, Marisa McCune. mmccune3 (at) my.smccd.edu
Click to expand...
Marisa: My response will be short and to the point: The railroad was there long before any of us were born. Being near a railroad and complaining about train noise and other train related issues is the same as being upset about salt spray when you are on the beach. If you do not like it, you should have chosen to live somewhere else. With time and a change in attitude, the train noise and other issues simply become part of the ambience of the area.

It also needs to be noted that the effects are much less intrusive now than in the past with unairconditioned houses, jointed rail, and even further back, steam engines with their greater smoke.
 
George Harris said:
Marisa said:
I live near an Amtrak/Southern Pacific train line in downtown Davis, CA. The noise pollution from Amtrak trains fluctuates based on their use of horns. The trains themselves are lighter than the cargo trains that pass through and squeal. However, the horn-blowing seems to have increased, even over the past couple weeks. It is my understanding that Amtrak trains exhibit a signature double-honk when exiting the station. This is pollution and annoying, especially because it is branding. Amtrak is the only passenger train choice in the area, so it seems like a waste of my nerves to have to hear their advertising horns. What really bothers me, and is prompting me to take action in my community is the excessive honking. Some trains honk continually and these include late night trains and early morning trains. Sometimes this excessive honking is even in the form of a song. Before living in this community I was an Amtrak customer, now, because of the noise pollution I experience every day, as well as the diesel pollution that covers my apartment with soot, I no longer support Amtrak. Are there others in my community that are victim to Amtrak and SP's noise pollution? I am sure that the horn volume surpasses all limits of safe noise pollution. I do not suggest a ban, but from my experience living on the train line, there is no respect for local residents and no limit to the amount of noise Amtrak trains are allowed to make. Any help or information you can provide would be helpful. I am working to create an ordinance to limit honking by train operators in my area. Thank you, Marisa McCune. mmccune3 (at) my.smccd.edu
Click to expand...
Marisa: My response will be short and to the point: The railroad was there long before any of us were born. Being near a railroad and complaining about train noise and other train related issues is the same as being upset about salt spray when you are on the beach. If you do not like it, you should have chosen to live somewhere else. With time and a change in attitude, the train noise and other issues simply become part of the ambience of the area.
It also needs to be noted that the effects are much less intrusive now than in the past with unairconditioned houses, jointed rail, and even further back, steam engines with their greater smoke.
Click to expand...
You read my mind with your post George. It certainly is a shame that these railroads come through and build tracks right next to already existing apartment buildings. Also being born and raised near Sacramento/Davis, it is fortunate that they built that dome over the 80 freeway to keep the exhaust from the thousands of diesel trucks that go by daily. (Off to the tub as I seem to be dripping in sarcasm for some reason?)
 
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Blackwolf said:
Would I be correct in saying that, even with an FRA-approved "Quiet Zone" for the City of Davis (which, mind you, has only one grade crossing in the entire city which Amtrak trains pass through) that trains would still be required to blow their horn to signal their movement?
Click to expand...
That's certainly the case here in Fresno.

The station is in the middle of a quiet zone, but Amtrak trains still blow their horn twice as they depart.
 
AlanB said:
tim54449 said:
My community is one of those that have done it recently, less than two years ago. I think simply it took a vote of the city council to ban train horns within city limits.
Click to expand...
Tim,

It takes far more than a simple vote by the city council. It requires funding from the city council to add special equipment to the grade crossing, and then the town/city must apply to the FRA for a waiver on horn blowing because they've done the required work to keep the public safe; at least in theory.

But no town/city can simply order the trains to stop blowing their horn. That is a Federal law and any town ordnance is superseded by the Federal laws.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the added information, Alan. I admit I was speculating for the most part. I do know that we did get the special equipment when we went no blow, including signage and a special median at the crossings to keep people from passing through lowered gates.
 
FrensicPic said:
When a city/town/community get approval for a quiet zone, don't THEY have to come up with the money for the crossing equipment upgrades (vs the railroad)?
Click to expand...
Yes.

tim54449 said:
AlanB said:
tim54449 said:
My community is one of those that have done it recently, less than two years ago. I think simply it took a vote of the city council to ban train horns within city limits.
Click to expand...
Tim,

It takes far more than a simple vote by the city council. It requires funding from the city council to add special equipment to the grade crossing, and then the town/city must apply to the FRA for a waiver on horn blowing because they've done the required work to keep the public safe; at least in theory.

But no town/city can simply order the trains to stop blowing their horn. That is a Federal law and any town ordnance is superseded by the Federal laws.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the added information, Alan. I admit I was speculating for the most part. I do know that we did get the special equipment when we went no blow, including signage and a special median at the crossings to keep people from passing through lowered gates.
Click to expand...
 
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