Vermonter/Montrealer sees sunlight

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NE933

Conductor
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
1,107
Location
Queens, New York
Less news and more inquiry. Another rail forum showed photos of a simple Amtrak inspection train consisting of a Genesis, Amfleet, and either Beech Grove or Corridor Clipper. The words that stood out was that this was the first passenger train on that route in 20 years; however, the conditions that drove the Montrealer off those tracks seem to still be legion, in that it took 7.5 hours to traverse 50 miles. Hopefully TIGER or other grants will be doled out and programmed quickly to get started on having track crews lay new ballast, ties, and rail, along with signalling.

So my question is what intentions does Amtrak have with what is now called the Vermonter, in terms of extending it to Montrael or anywhere else for that matter. I've never been there but if i go, this train will be it.
 
Vermont has already secured funding to improve the tracks from St Albans to the border:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=68113fb0-a988-428e-8079-a9748871db74

The Canadians need to improve their section of the track, and I believe customs needs to be set up for the Adirondack and the future Vermonter/Montrealer service in Montreal (as I don't believe there are any plans to clear the train on the border, but I could be wrong) and then essentially the service should be ready to go. The governor of VT has been pushing this extension since he has been in office.
 
Less news and more inquiry. Another rail forum showed photos of a simple Amtrak inspection train consisting of a Genesis, Amfleet, and either Beech Grove or Corridor Clipper. The words that stood out was that this was the first passenger train on that route in 20 years; however, the conditions that drove the Montrealer off those tracks seem to still be legion, in that it took 7.5 hours to traverse 50 miles. Hopefully TIGER or other grants will be doled out and programmed quickly to get started on having track crews lay new ballast, ties, and rail, along with signalling.

So my question is what intentions does Amtrak have with what is now called the Vermonter, in terms of extending it to Montreal or anywhere else for that matter. I've never been there but if i go, this train will be it.
You are writing about the post on trainorders? The inspection train ran on the CT River Line in MA which has started on restoring the tracks along with 2 new/restored stations with a $72.8 million HSIPR grant to MA. I saw reports that MBTA, really on behalf of Mass DOT, has reached an agreement with Pan Am RR to buy the CT River Line for $17 million (which sounds cheap). So MA is very serious about restoring passenger rail service over the line. The inspection train may have been there in part to document the condition of the tracks prior to the active start of the track upgrades.

I suspect the inspection train may have run to St. Albans to verify the track conditions as the track work in VT is supposed to be wrapping up this summer. In the fall, around 25 minutes is expected to taken off of the Vermonter trip times in VT.

As noted, VT received a TIGER IV grant to upgrade the tracks from St. Albans to the border. According to the news articles, in order for the Vermonter to be extended to Montreal, the Customs facility at the Montreal station is a neccessity. Setting up a customs inspection facility to handle a passenger train at the border location where the Vermonter would cross into Canada was considered a non-starter. So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.

There were reports several months ago that an Amtrak inspection train was to run on the tracks in western VT to determine the extent of the work needed to restore the tracks from Rutland to Burlington to suitability for passenger service. The inspection train may be in VT to inspect those tracks too.
 
. . . Amtrak inspection train consisting of a Genesis, Amfleet, and either Beech Grove or Corridor Clipper. . . it took 7.5 hours to traverse 50 miles. . .
Notice the words, "inspection train" That does not mean get out and run the speed limit from end to end. It means inspect. There may have been several stops, some slow down, look at this, etc.
 
As noted, VT received a TIGER IV grant to upgrade the tracks from St. Albans to the border. According to the news articles, in order for the Vermonter to be extended to Montreal, the Customs facility at the Montreal station is a neccessity. Setting up a customs inspection facility to handle a passenger train at the border location where the Vermonter would cross into Canada was considered a non-starter. So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.
There never has been a proposal to setup a border inspection station at the border where the extended Vermonter would cross into Canada.

Ironically, the inspection station at Montreal station apparently more of a "necessity" issue for the US than it is for Canada. The hypothetical extended Vermonter will be passing through CBSA Lacolle where the Adirondack inspection is handled. That location is staffed by personnel from the adjacent road inspection station, who just walk over to the train and inspect it.

OTOH, US will have to set up inspection at St. Albans, like it used to be back in the days, where currently no facility exists. Back in the days it was staffed out of the road border post north of St. Albans, who had to drive down to St. Albans to inspect the Montrealer. OTOH, St. Albans also used to have a large INS presence. Lot of overflow paperwork from the New York office went to St. Albans for processing. For example all of my i-94 extensions processed within the US were stamped at St. Albans although the paperwork was filed with the Newark office of INS.

As for the St. Albans to Cantic railroad, it carries considerable amount of freight traffic today. The TIGER grant is primarily to make it 286k compliant route, which it is not currently due to a weak bridge across the Richelieu River and also some weak track structure in a few other places, or whatever that stretch of it is called. Otherwise I am told that it is no worse than the Amtrak owned Port Road connection between the Boston Selkirk line and Albany/Rensselear station that the LSL Soston Section regularly bounces along on. It will also help speed up a potential Vermonter across the bridge and the rest of the route in the process.
 
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So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.
I can't remember where I read this, but apparently a design has been agreed for a "US-side" track and platform at Montreal, initially for use of the Adirondack; I'm not sure whether funding has been lined up, but it's not very expensive (the track is there, they just need to move an employee parking lot off the platform and put up some fences). Presumably this could also be used by a restored Montrealer.

That just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
 
So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.
I can't remember where I read this, but apparently a design has been agreed for a "US-side" track and platform at Montreal, initially for use of the Adirondack; I'm not sure whether funding has been lined up, but it's not very expensive (the track is there, they just need to move an employee parking lot off the platform and put up some fences). Presumably this could also be used by a restored Montrealer.

That just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
Well, it depends on how much Vermont wants the service and how much they're willing to shell out for it. The key is that they'd be getting three markets added to their routing with the train (Vermont-MTR, Connecticut-MTR, and south-of-NYP-MTR), so that might well offset quite a few hassles and a rather steep price tag.
 
So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.
I can't remember where I read this, but apparently a design has been agreed for a "US-side" track and platform at Montreal, initially for use of the Adirondack; I'm not sure whether funding has been lined up, but it's not very expensive (the track is there, they just need to move an employee parking lot off the platform and put up some fences). Presumably this could also be used by a restored Montrealer.

That just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
Well, it depends on how much Vermont wants the service and how much they're willing to shell out for it. The key is that they'd be getting three markets added to their routing with the train (Vermont-MTR, Connecticut-MTR, and south-of-NYP-MTR), so that might well offset quite a few hassles and a rather steep price tag.
But they had those 3 markets when the Montrealer was running. I had the pleasure of taking the Montrealer from NYP to Montreal in a Sleeping Car in 1984. They had one of the disco lounge cars on and it was a Fri night so the train was full. It was great to have breakfast in the full dining car in Northern Vermont. After a stay in Montreal, I returned to New York on the Adirondak. But as the earlier poster pointed out,that just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it with which I agree. Its another dream like restoring the Silver Palm.
 
My crystal ball is cloudy this morning, so I'm not going to guess if service to Montreal, via Vermont, will be restored, but two main differences this time, as compared to when the Montrealer went away, are that this would be a day train without long distance services, and I think there is greater 'political will' (read funding) in Vermont for the service now.
 
That just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
The track between St. Albans and Canadian border, which is the part that needed the most fixing (including upgrading the Richelieu Bridge to 286k), is now funded and work begins in 2013 to fix it, and should not take more than one or two construction seasons. Beyond that there is nothing regarding track condition that prevents running a Vermont - Montreal passenger service. Yes, track could be improved to speed service up, but is not critical to running a service. Of course CN charges is something that one has to pay to run on CN between Cantic and Montreal. The track between Cantic and Montreal is the one that is currently used by the Adirondack.

This time around both Vermont and Quebec want to resume it, which is different from the last time around when neither Vermont nor Quebec wanted to have anything to do with it.
 
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So both NY and VT have been both been working with the US, Canadian and Quebec officials towards a joint Customs facility at the Montreal station.
I can't remember where I read this, but apparently a design has been agreed for a "US-side" track and platform at Montreal, initially for use of the Adirondack; I'm not sure whether funding has been lined up, but it's not very expensive (the track is there, they just need to move an employee parking lot off the platform and put up some fences). Presumably this could also be used by a restored Montrealer.

That just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
Well, it depends on how much Vermont wants the service and how much they're willing to shell out for it. The key is that they'd be getting three markets added to their routing with the train (Vermont-MTR, Connecticut-MTR, and south-of-NYP-MTR), so that might well offset quite a few hassles and a rather steep price tag.
But they had those 3 markets when the Montrealer was running. I had the pleasure of taking the Montrealer from NYP to Montreal in a Sleeping Car in 1984. They had one of the disco lounge cars on and it was a Fri night so the train was full. It was great to have breakfast in the full dining car in Northern Vermont. After a stay in Montreal, I returned to New York on the Adirondak. But as the earlier poster pointed out,that just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it with which I agree. Its another dream like restoring the Silver Palm.
True, but....

1) Amtrak ridership was about 50% lower then than it is now.

2) More importantly, the Montrealer had to put up with years of awful track/maintenance conditions, to the point that Amtrak seized the line and sold it to another operator to ensure continued operation.

#2 probably did in the Montrealer as much as the CN charges did by more or less collapsing ridership.

Moreover, I was looking at those three markets in terms of net gains for VT to offset the charges.
 
But they had those 3 markets when the Montrealer was running. I had the pleasure of taking the Montrealer from NYP to Montreal in a Sleeping Car in 1984. They had one of the disco lounge cars on and it was a Fri night so the train was full. It was great to have breakfast in the full dining car in Northern Vermont. After a stay in Montreal, I returned to New York on the Adirondak. But as the earlier poster pointed out,that just leaves track conditions and price imposed by CN for use of the track from St. Albans to Montreal.... which, unfortunately, is what eliminated the Montrealer the *first* time around, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it with which I agree. Its another dream like restoring the Silver Palm.
The Montrealer passed through VT in the middle of the night, so it did not provide much of a VT<->MTR service. An extension of the Vermonter to Montreal would be a daytime train.

As noted, the difference this time is that there is significant support from VT Governor Shumlin and state legislature. And from the VT and NY Senators who signed a joint letter a few months ago calling on the various federal agencies to move the process along on establishing a Customs facility in Montreal so the Adirondack and the Vermonter won't have to stop at the border. And reportedly solid support from the Quebec government.

As for the odds of extending the Vermonter to Montreal, I did a google search for more recent news and came across this August 1 report from New England Public Radio. Quoting from the article:

Solving cross-border travel problems is on the to-do list for New England governors and eastern Canadian premiers. And the leaders meeting in Burlington this week say they're making progress to restore passenger rail service to Montreal.
The Amtrak train now stops in St. Albans and passengers who want to continue north to Canada have to travel by bus. The passengers must clear customs at the border

Governor Peter Shumlin says Quebec is moving ahead on plans to build a new customs center at the Montreal train station. That would allow travelers to be processed by customs agents for both countries in Montreal.

On the U.S. side, Shumlin says the states and federal government are investing tens of million of dollars to boost travel speeds by rail.

"They're going to make that train faster in the next several months. And you add in the extraordinary work that Premier Charest has done with his federal government, that we've done with ours to have an instantaneous border crossing at Montreal, and I'm convinced that you will see higher speed rail by 2013, and you will see the Montreal connection not long after that," he says.
The completion date for the upgrades to the CT River line tracks and 2 new stations now appear to be sometime in 2014. Even if the track work in VT were completed next year and the Montreal Customs facility opens by fall of 2013, my guess is that Amtrak would not extend to the service to MTR until the CT River Line is back in service so they can cut 25 minutes off of the trip time to St. Albans and eliminate the back-up move. No, extending the Vermonter to MTR is not a dream, but something that is very likely to happen in 2014 (or 2015).
 
Already discussed elsewhere, Jis. :)

Apparently we're still waiting for the Canadian bill to be passed.
 
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