160 replies to this topic

[none]

And even though the freight railroads ares supposed to give priority over amtrak they delay amtrak to force it to miss its window so they can delay it more to the point its hours late.If the host railroads don't want to deal with amtrak why delay it. That just makes them have to deal with amtrak that much longer. Give amtrak the priority even if it's late and you can go back you running your little freight trains sooner. It's a game the hosts like the play cause they know amtrak does not have the gonads to challenge it.

I agree ... but - "Little freight trains"????? Haven't seen any Amtrak trains over a mile long lately!

[amtrakwolverine]

And even though the freight railroads ares supposed to give priority over amtrak they delay amtrak to force it to miss its window so they can delay it more to the point its hours late.If the host railroads don't want to deal with amtrak why delay it. That just makes them have to deal with amtrak that much longer. Give amtrak the priority even if it's late and you can go back you running your little freight trains sooner. It's a game the hosts like the play cause they know amtrak does not have the gonads to challenge it.

I agree ... but - "Little freight trains"????? Haven't seen any Amtrak trains over a mile long lately!

Being sarcastic about the freight railroads as they see their freight as more important then amtrak. Freights travel slower then amtrak. Let amtrak over take it's not going to kill you to hold a freight for 3 or 4 minutes etc while amtrak takes over but instead they will hold amtrak for hours just to let 3 or 4 trains pass amtrak in the same direction. then cause amtrak missed its "window" they delay it more. That makes sense how?

Edited by amtrakwolverine, 30 June 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[ParrotRob]

Your first mistake was watching Faux News.

Yea. Fox News announced yesterday that the Supreme Court overturned "Obamacare". Later, much later, they finally corrected themselves, but never apologized for the error.

"Later, much later"? Seriously? Shannon Bream reported at 10:08 that the individual mandate was struck down, based on the initial reading that it was unconstitutional under the commerce clause. One minute later - ONE MINUTE - Megyn Kelly reported (correctly) that it was upheld as a tax. If you're going to blast the networks, at least get your OWN facts straight, please.

[Larry H.]

It's not the gov't job to keep business afloat if private business can do it better.

You keep saying that, yet failing utterly to make a case that private industry can do it better.

As Jishnu said, what has changed since A-day that would make that a true statement?

Until you can answer that, we're just talking about a fantasyland where the private industry fairies make everything A-OK.

The real problem is not who is running rail service its that it cost so much to operate that no matter who runs it there is going to be a loss. We have seen the prices go up and up with Amtrak. Many here seem just fine with that. Our trouble is were trying to charge fares that will cover the expenses and rarely has that worked with passenger rail on a large scale. As to the political tones of this thread, I am always amazed at how people can degrade one station they disagree with but more than likely flock to the majority to are in the tank with the administration.. No matter though, better to throw stones at others.

[Shawn Ryu]

Your first mistake was watching Faux News.

Yea. Fox News announced yesterday that the Supreme Court overturned "Obamacare". Later, much later, they finally corrected themselves, but never apologized for the error.

Like MSNBC ever does.

[rusty spike]

I didn't see the segment on Fox re John Stossel but I do know that Libertarians like Stossel don't want much of anything regulated. Some Libertarians proclaim, "Let the Iranians have a nuke, legalized marijuana etc.

Yes, it is true Amtrak is subsidized heavily, but name one airline that doesn't operate from a government-owned, taxpayer-supported terminal flying through government supplied airspace courtesy of a the Federal Aviation Admin. Name a trucking/bus line operating on other than government, tax-supported rights-of-way, or a river barge line operating on other than a waterway created and maintained by the government tax-supported Army Corps of Engineer. Private enterprise has it's place but public infrastructure, including public transportation, will always be subsidized for the "greater good" of the people.

Perhaps upgrading Amtrak, like making the SSL a daily train, that does not miss the 6th largest U.S. city by 35 miles without any connecting transportation, might actually increase ridership.

[Ryan]

The fact the the Class I's have spent all that money doesn't disprove the fact that ROW issues are a huge factor in Amtraks's poor performance. Examples:

Cardinal lateness, due to lack of sidings on the BBRR
Daily Sunset, or lack thereof
Potential SwC reroute
Flooding on the Devils Lake sub
Mudslides on BNSF track in the PacNorWest

Just off of the top of my head...

Also, you, and others, have been pressing dn4192 to produce facts and figures to document his comments, how huge a factor are ROW issues an Amtrak OTP? What routes are affected and to what extent, how much revenue is lost due to lack of class I investment in their infrastructure? How much should the class I's spend and where?

I still don't have power 37 hours and counting), but go look at Amtrak's monthly reports, which (if I recall correctly) break down delays by train and reason for delay. All the information you seek is right there.

OK, crashing at a friends place since we don't have any power - looking at the April Monthly Performance Report. Page E-1 breaks down delay minutes by cause, in April LD trains suffered 181,000 minutes of delay time. Of that, 36,000 minutes can be laid at the feet of Amtrak. 113,000 minutes can be laid at the feet of the railroads. Page E-3 has an excellent graph demonstrates that Freight Train interference is the leading cause of Amtrak delays. The second most common cause of delay minutes are slow orders. Both of these problems can be fixed by the host railroads making investments in their ROW to clear slow orders and increase capacity to reduce congestion.

All the data is there if you care to look.

Edited by Ryan, 01 July 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[johnny.menhennet]

On my JetBlue flight last night and this morning, I was flipping through channels and what comes on? John Stossel was just beginning his Amtrak segment that started this thread. I watched it, and didn't like 1 minute of it. And the guest they had on was so vague in his insults. I'm forgetting them now because I got 1 hour of good sleep, but I remember how he was just trying to make the problem sound worse than it was. And they claimed that a ticket price is something like $437 for NOLA - LA. I don't believe this would ever be a coach ticket, high bucket or not. This huge misrepresentation of facts was just kind of frustrating to watch.

[johnny.menhennet]

Ryan, top Google News story:
"Power could be out for days"

Sorry about that

[NW cannonball]

I gave up my TV 25 years ago. Turned it on again to see the totally lame coverage of "Reagan shot"
Never looked again since. All the media make their money off their advertisers - and will kiss the advertisers parts to get the ads.
In an election year -- how much money do any of the media make off the hate ads? Will any media outlet even try to be "fair" "balanced" -- not likely when the money for hate ads lets their top people make a few million a year.
Ask your local media outlet to consider one of your most important local issues. Good luck

Ryan, top Google News story:
"Power could be out for days"

Sorry about that

[WICT106]

Stories such as this, and the reach of the Fox News network, should serve to illustrate just how many anti-rail individuals there are in our nation. It should also serve to illustrate just how effective they are at getting the anti-Amtrak, or anti-passenger train message out. The reporter even had come up with neat numbers, and eye catching statistics, that are easy for those not as well-versed in the Politics of Passenger Railroading, to quote in their opposition to train service improvements. Amtrak could continue to carry more and more riders, but, for many folks, if they have never been aboard a train before and cannot imagine ever riding one, this and similar stories make the opposition even stronger. Get out there and ride trains, and show your support (especially to your Elected Officials) !

[amtrakwolverine]

Ryan, top Google News story:
"Power could be out for days"

Sorry about that

Doesn't help that in New York Con ed just went on strike.

[RRUserious]

Here's my confusion. Private business had the rails and didn't WANT them. We wouldn't have Amtrak if Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and other companies wanted to carry passengers. Don't Fox reporters even bother to research the subject? Or do they know all this and just pretend it never happened?

[E Runs]

http://www.inboundlo...he-right-track/


Just a very quick check on the internet and came up with the link above. Anyone that reads Railway Age knows that freight railroading is a growth industry and that Class I's spend billions annualy to grow and maintain their rights of way. To say that Amtrak's routes are poor due to lack of ROW investment is mostly false. To say Amtrak is treated like a red headed step child by the class I's is likely true but that is more of a dispatching issue than infrastucture. What's obvious in the article is that the Class I's are getting their subsidies as well, from local, state and federal sources.

Of course I can't dispute the the maintenance dollars ClassIs spend every year, it's significant. However the fact BNSF if just now getting around to installing automatic switches on the Ottumwa Sub, a continual choke point for the CZ, tells me they aren't all that interested in improving those ROWs for passenger service. From Trains.com: "This is a very focused investment targeted to improving on-time performance for a small number of passenger trains," says Richard Wessler, BNSF's director of passenger train operations. "If it weren't for Amtrak's need, BNSF wouldn't ask for the money, and certainly not from the federal government."

In a way I don't blame the Class Is for looking out for themselves first. They have to for all the reasons you enumerated in another post, the quote from Mr. Wessler just drives that fact home. They were relieved of the burden of passenger service in 1971 and have been lukewarm, if not hostile in some instances, to Amtrak's efforts. And again, if the UP wants to downgrade a stretch of track because they don't run freights over it anymore, I can understand their thinking. But it all just goes back to one of the major reasons, in my mind, of why Amtrak will always be behind the proverbial eight ball: they don't own their ROW.

[oldtimer]

Here's my confusion. Private business had the rails and didn't WANT them. We wouldn't have Amtrak if Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and other companies wanted to carry passengers. Don't Fox reporters even bother to research the subject? Or do they know all this and just pretend it never happened?

There are many reasons why their is so much discourse and polarity in America. First let's look at the overall source of information for this article:

Fox News is not news by their own admission in the court system, in a 1997 case in Florida : During their appeal, FOX asserted that there are no written rules against distorting news in the media. They argued that, under the First Amendment, broadcasters have the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on public airwaves. Fox attorneys did not dispute Akre’s claim that they pressured her to broadcast a false story, they simply maintained that it was their right to do so.

Having worked at Amtrak with many recent immigrants for eastern Europe their view of Fox in particular and American news in general is that it is nothing but the same propaganda that they saw before they came to America. If they want to see news they watch the BBC or even RT news, they think that it is more fair and balanced than any American news source (or even Australian in Fox's case with a Saudi prince being a major shareholder).

[Hotblack Desiato]

Being sarcastic about the freight railroads as they see their freight as more important then amtrak. Freights travel slower then amtrak. Let amtrak over take it's not going to kill you to hold a freight for 3 or 4 minutes etc while amtrak takes over but instead they will hold amtrak for hours just to let 3 or 4 trains pass amtrak in the same direction. then cause amtrak missed its "window" they delay it more. That makes sense how?

Unless you've actually sat in a dispatch office watching the entire railroad move, you really can't make a judgment like that. On a railroad filled with freight trains traveling 40-50 mph, one passenger train traveling 79 mph takes up a hell of a lot more capacity than most people realize. It's not as simple a matter as just holding a freight for "3 or 4 minutes."

[Ryan]

OK, crashing at a friends place since we don't have any power - looking at the April Monthly Performance Report. Page E-1 breaks down delay minutes by cause, in April LD trains suffered 181,000 minutes of delay time. Of that, 36,000 minutes can be laid at the feet of Amtrak. 113,000 minutes can be laid at the feet of the railroads. Page E-3 has an excellent graph demonstrates that Freight Train interference is the leading cause of Amtrak delays. The second most common cause of delay minutes are slow orders. Both of these problems can be fixed by the host railroads making investments in their ROW to clear slow orders and increase capacity to reduce congestion.

All the data is there if you care to look.

Sorry, I edited my earlier post instead of adding the above in a new post.

[cirdan]

Imagine what UPs response would be if [say] First Group came to them wanting to run service on their lines, and how much a ticket on that might cost if UP let them...

Allow me to be the Devil's advocate here.

If First Group were to takle over the SL, they would sign some lock in-agreement with DOT, assuring them a minimum subsidy for a period of several years, thus forcing DOT to commit to that route for a certain time horizon, and giving DOT no space to worm out of making the payments. They would similarly get an armlock on UPRR and smother them in red tape if they caused unjustified delays.

That's a lot more than Amtrak has or gets.

But none of this would come for free.

If that's what libertarians want, fair enough, but don't let them pretend they're saving tax dollars.

[EB_OBS]

Here's my confusion. Private business had the rails and didn't WANT them. We wouldn't have Amtrak if Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and other companies wanted to carry passengers. Don't Fox reporters even bother to research the subject? Or do they know all this and just pretend it never happened?

Of course they know it. Just like the guy from the Post Office said, there isn't any private business that's going to buy the Post Office and continue to serve every location, every rural town that the Post Office currently serves. No private company is going to buy Amtrak and continue to run 90% of the LD trains.

I love how they put up $60 Billion in large font on the screen too, showing how much subsidy Amtrak has received. It's typical and hypocritical though to also fail to mention that's $60 Billion over 40 years. That makes a huge difference to reasonable people who are actually paying attention.

Last night was the first time I'd seen this week's show. He mentioned a Japanese passenger railroad making a profit. I'd sure like to see the proof of that.

[saxman]

I stumbled across another podcast with John Stossel, talking about transportation in general. This was recorded back in 2010, but it was pretty much the same. He invited the American Public Transportation Association's president, along with Randy O'Toole, and even had Glenn Beck on as a "transportation expert." They talked about how to get better transportation, and they pretty much trashed talked any type of rail transit and said the solution to gridlock was to....add more highways.

The APTA president did a really poor job at defending transit and HSR, and when he tried, O'Toole would toute back some silly myth that most of use know aren't true. Luckily, I didn't stick around to hear Glenn Beck.

Unfortunately these are the type of people we are dealing with sometimes and its our job to correct them as much as we can.