83 replies to this topic

[RRUserious]

Vacations are supposed to be about stress-reduction. Certainly last fall when I took the Empire Builder to Oregon and back, that was the case. This year I thought I'd try going east instead. Little did I know what was to come.

Train due to arrive at 7:05 at MSP, arrived at 11:30. Passengers loaded. Then train sat there till 12:30pm with no explanation of the holdup. Train was overbooked, final two passengers got "seats" in the lounge. At 12:30pm, the EB started up. Somewhere between MSP and Hastings, a conductor came around and explained that Amtrak can't operate the train on the Wisconsin side between Hastings and LaCrosse. They had to get experienced engineers. And despite the LONG holdup in North Dakota, the qualified engineers weren't there at 11:30am.


Next thing was the train was, we were told, out of food. It had been served during the delays in North Dakota. They had got Subway sandwiches in Wisconsin Dells. We were told to take these or eat at Chicago. Everyone took whatever was handed them. When they were all gone, now we learned we could get food in the cafe. Deceive the customers to get rid of all the sandwiches.

Arrived in CHI six hours late. All connections for all passengers were missed. The nearer destinations were served by a special bus. Lakeshore Limited passengers were told to get cash and vouchers. HOWEVER, despite six hours warning, no one had the operation up and ready to go. Lakeshore Limited passengers queued up at Lounge G in Union Station, and it took to about 1am to do the paperwork. After which we queued up at the ticket counters with our cash vouchers to get the dinner and cab money. Got to my Crowne Plaza room about 2am. Then had to let my frustration diminish till I could sort of get to sleep.

9:30pm next night, loaded on Lakeshore Limited. Not sure why they tout this as scenic. From Chicago to Eries PA, everything was darkness. At the summer solstice! Arrived at Buffalo-Depew 9am. Train to Toronto scheduled for 3:10pm. Caught a bus to a nearby mall and had some lunch. Got back about an hour early. 3:10 came and went. The staff started putting in new estimates. Eventually Maple Leaf arrived from New York at 3:55pm. Loaded up and rode for the border. At border, everybody takes everything they have into Canadian Border Services for security clearance. Luckily, no big conflict arose,though the guy ahead of me was Pakistani and has lived for 23 years in the USA with Pakistani papers. I was a "teensy bit" concerned, but they passed him. So we all traipsed around the building to sit in ANOTHER waiting area. Then the conductor of the Maple Leaf says people in "business class" go to this door. So people line up. Waiting for him to say something about the rest. He never does. So I get in line, eventually asking him where coach class go. One of these two cars he says. Nice that he volunteered it.

For some reason the guy says we are 30 minutes behind even though we left the border an hour past what my ticket said. But hey, I'm finally rolling to Toronto, so who am I to quibble? And so I arrive in Toronto a day late plus.

Recommend this? Don't think so. Of course, the very next group of passengers could have a totally uneventful trip. I suspect in offseason when there is no flooding, Amtrak handles whatever continencies better. But I don't know if I'm going to be the guinea pig to find out.

[johnny.menhennet]

Vacations are supposed to be about stress-reduction. Certainly last fall when I took the Empire Builder to Oregon and back, that was the case. This year I thought I'd try going east instead. Little did I know what was to come.

Train due to arrive at 7:05 at MSP, arrived at 11:30. Passengers loaded. Then train sat there till 12:30pm with no explanation of the holdup. Train was overbooked, final two passengers got "seats" in the lounge. At 12:30pm, the EB started up. Somewhere between MSP and Hastings, a conductor came around and explained that Amtrak can't operate the train on the Wisconsin side between Hastings and LaCrosse. They had to get experienced engineers. And despite the LONG holdup in North Dakota, the qualified engineers weren't there at 11:30am.


Next thing was the train was, we were told, out of food. It had been served during the delays in North Dakota. They had got Subway sandwiches in Wisconsin Dells. We were told to take these or eat at Chicago. Everyone took whatever was handed them. When they were all gone, now we learned we could get food in the cafe. Deceive the customers to get rid of all the sandwiches.

Arrived in CHI six hours late. All connections for all passengers were missed. The nearer destinations were served by a special bus. Lakeshore Limited passengers were told to get cash and vouchers. HOWEVER, despite six hours warning, no one had the operation up and ready to go. Lakeshore Limited passengers queued up at Lounge G in Union Station, and it took to about 1am to do the paperwork. After which we queued up at the ticket counters with our cash vouchers to get the dinner and cab money. Got to my Crowne Plaza room about 2am. Then had to let my frustration diminish till I could sort of get to sleep.

9:30pm next night, loaded on Lakeshore Limited. Not sure why they tout this as scenic. From Chicago to Eries PA, everything was darkness. At the summer solstice! Arrived at Buffalo-Depew 9am. Train to Toronto scheduled for 3:10pm. Caught a bus to a nearby mall and had some lunch. Got back about an hour early. 3:10 came and went. The staff started putting in new estimates. Eventually Maple Leaf arrived from New York at 3:55pm. Loaded up and rode for the border. At border, everybody takes everything they have into Canadian Border Services for security clearance. Luckily, no big conflict arose,though the guy ahead of me was Pakistani and has lived for 23 years in the USA with Pakistani papers. I was a "teensy bit" concerned, but they passed him. So we all traipsed around the building to sit in ANOTHER waiting area. Then the conductor of the Maple Leaf says people in "business class" go to this door. So people line up. Waiting for him to say something about the rest. He never does. So I get in line, eventually asking him where coach class go. One of these two cars he says. Nice that he volunteered it.

For some reason the guy says we are 30 minutes behind even though we left the border an hour past what my ticket said. But hey, I'm finally rolling to Toronto, so who am I to quibble? And so I arrive in Toronto a day late plus.

Recommend this? Don't think so. Of course, the very next group of passengers could have a totally uneventful trip. I suspect in offseason when there is no flooding, Amtrak handles whatever continencies better. But I don't know if I'm going to be the guinea pig to find out.

Sorry about your troubles, but I think you know that this is not always the case, as your first trip went so very well. You seem to have had your computer up and running the entire way. Were you unable to check the Status Maps, because even though it is really not a long wait for the 45 extra minutes, it would have given you some peace of mind.

[RRUserious]

Never had an internet connection where it was useful. No wifi on EB. No wifi on LSL. No wifi in the Buffalo-Depew station. No wifi on the Maple Leaf. And, naturally, no wifi in MSP. Only device that would have been any good at all would be a cell phone with an app and a data plan. But, frankly, none of these things really address the problem. And that is the fact that Amtrak couldn't do anything on time. Nor could it react to emergencies in a way that indicated that passenger comfort mattered.

As for the previous trip, it bears repeating: This was not in a heavy travel season. It was a delayed trip necessitated by the fact that for about 3 weeks, the run from MSP to Seattle was on hold. The ironic upside is that Amtrak could not make any mistakes when it was not running. No revenue either, but travelers who either didn't travel or chose to fly were at least never inconvenienced.

Every form of travel has emergencies. Think of the volcanic ash that stopped travel over the Atlantic. It is how this is handled that differentiates pros from fumbling amateurs. Amtrak staff did NOT act like pros in this trip. They kept acting as if each problem was happening for the first time. No playbook to say how to do it right. And, truth is that next time it might be a different set of problems; and how will they handle those? I want our rail system to be capable of playing the role of a vital partner in travel. But I don't think they are ready yet. And Heaven only knows what would happen if they GOT a big share. They are pretty marginal right now. If big numbers start coming their way, it could swamp them.

[AlanB]

Sorry to hear that things didn't go smoothly!

At border, everybody takes everything they have into Canadian Border Services for security clearance. Luckily, no big conflict arose,though the guy ahead of me was Pakistani and has lived for 23 years in the USA with Pakistani papers. I was a "teensy bit" concerned, but they passed him. So we all traipsed around the building to sit in ANOTHER waiting area.

Not that Amtrak has any control over this. This is a Canadian Border patrol thing. It's the CBSA that insists now that everyone get off the train, after years of clearing people on board where they sit.

Then the conductor of the Maple Leaf says people in "business class" go to this door. So people line up. Waiting for him to say something about the rest. He never does. So I get in line, eventually asking him where coach class go. One of these two cars he says. Nice that he volunteered it.

I do hope that you realize that from the moment the train wheels stopped rolling at the Niagara Falls, ON train station, it ceased to be an Amtrak train. Yes, the equipment remains Amtrak. But all Amtrak personnel get off the train along with the passengers and they are driven back across the border to spend the night there.

It's a VIA Rail crew that operates the train from that point on to Toronto. So that helpful individual was a VIA Rail employee, not an Amtrak employee.

[caravanman]

Sorry to hear of your bad trip, and I certainly agree that Amtrak staff almost always seem to act surprised when there is a problem. I say act, because these issues arise on a very frequent basis. I don't lay the problems of weather, diversions, acts of god, at Amtraks door, but they are the ones who have the ability to turn a problem into a fiasco, or into an inconvenience. I should say that once I was on a very delayed train and Amtrak had extra staff board at a station ahead of our arrival into Chicago to help sort out connections, etc. They even put someone on a plane! We still had to queue for our taxi and hotel vouchers in Chicago, but it certainly made one feel more like a valued customer than a walking problem...

Ed

[RRUserious]

I don't know if they were acting "surprised", or if they were simply waiting till the emergency was visible before doing any thinking about what would be required. Case in point, the engineers for the unfamiliar stretch in Wisconsin. Seems like given the proximity, those people should have been called and present at the station when the train arrived.

As I say, after having a long working life myself, I fail to see evidence of professionalism in how they responded. And it seemed systemic.

Edited by RRUserious, 22 June 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Ispolkom]

Recommend this? Don't think so. Of course, the very next group of passengers could have a totally uneventful trip. I suspect in offseason when there is no flooding, Amtrak handles whatever continencies better. But I don't know if I'm going to be the guinea pig to find out.

I'm sorry to read that your trip went so poorly. It's really luck of the draw, as you suggest. I did this trip in May, and everything went very well. We took a cab into downtown Buffalo because we didn't fancy spending the day in Depew, and the bus was $60 cheaper than the train. This gave us time to go to church and catch 6 innings of a AAA baseball game before catching our 1/2 hour late Megabus ride to Toronto.

But, as you describe, when things go wrong on Amtrak, they can really go wrong. I scheduled two days of padding into our trip to Toronto, just in case.

Edited by Ispolkom, 22 June 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Trogdor]

I don't know if they were acting "surprised", or if they were simply waiting till the emergency was visible before doing any thinking about what would be required. Case in point, the engineers for the unfamiliar stretch in Wisconsin. Seems like given the proximity, those people should have been called and present at the station when the train arrived.

How do you know when the normal route was shut down for service? You assume that they knew, back when the train was in North Dakota, that the normal route would be closed.

Once they knew they had to detour (which could very well have been within a couple of hours of the train arriving), now they have to find qualified pilots. Those aren't going to be Amtrak employees, so they have to get them from BNSF. BNSF isn't going to have a staff full of people just sitting around waiting to go on a moment's notice (especially if the same issue that caused the Builder to take an unplanned detour also impacts freight trains that now need to detour). So, they have to call BNSF, ask for pilots, then BNSF has to determine, using their own internal processes, what crews are available to act as pilots, make sure they're rested before they can report, then sign up and get transported to the train before proceeding.

Certainly, Amtrak's crews should have been more informative of what was going on and why the train was waiting. There's no good excuse for that. But to say that they were just waiting around wasting time doing nothing when they should have been getting other crews in place is simply not a realistic view of what happens.

[RRUserious]

The MIssissippi has been in flood for many weeks. It wasn't any surprise. This is a train that goes DAILY. They had buses already to take people to Red Wing and Winona. Who knows why such goofy procedures are used. As for a route, the Wolverine Line goes from Chicago to Detroit. Seems like it would take little to connect to Canada in Windsor and route that way. But it appears to be something the traveler assembles for himself. If you just give a departure point and then Toronto, the computers at Amtrak automatically offer you the Lakeshore Limited and the Maple Leaf. I've given it a pass before, but I wanted to see what those lines were like. Hard to see why it should be this difficult. Makes me wonder about the other routes to the east coast. But here in Middle America, we do have these large rivers that regularly overflow, and we have train connections that are at risk. So flood season just is an iffy time to go. I want to do the the Empire Builder west in late July and hope all's well when I come to do that.

[rrdude]

Sorry to hear that things didn't go smoothly!

At border, everybody takes everything they have into Canadian Border Services for security clearance. Luckily, no big conflict arose,though the guy ahead of me was Pakistani and has lived for 23 years in the USA with Pakistani papers. I was a "teensy bit" concerned, but they passed him. So we all traipsed around the building to sit in ANOTHER waiting area.

Not that Amtrak has any control over this. This is a Canadian Border patrol thing. It's the CBSA that insists now that everyone get off the train, after years of clearing people on board where they sit.

Then the conductor of the Maple Leaf says people in "business class" go to this door. So people line up. Waiting for him to say something about the rest. He never does. So I get in line, eventually asking him where coach class go. One of these two cars he says. Nice that he volunteered it.

I do hope that you realize that from the moment the train wheels stopped rolling at the Niagara Falls, ON train station, it ceased to be an Amtrak train. Yes, the equipment remains Amtrak. But all Amtrak personnel get off the train along with the passengers and they are driven back across the border to spend the night there.

It's a VIA Rail crew that operates the train from that point on to Toronto. So that helpful individual was a VIA Rail employee, not an Amtrak employee.

Go figure...............

[TraneMan]

The MIssissippi has been in flood for many weeks. It wasn't any surprise. This is a train that goes DAILY. They had buses already to take people to Red Wing and Winona.

No, it was not the MIssissippi River that was flooded. The Cannon River was flooded. It rosed up almost 15' in less than 6 hours with rain in the area of 8 to 10" of rain.

So, it was not a known issues for many weeks.

Edited by TraneMan, 23 June 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[RRUserious]

The MIssissippi has been in flood for many weeks. It wasn't any surprise. This is a train that goes DAILY. They had buses already to take people to Red Wing and Winona.

No, it was not the MIssissippi River that was flooded. The Cannon River was flooded. It rosed up almost 15' in less than 6 hours with rain in the area of 8 to 10" of rain.

So, it was not a known issues for many weeks.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I do know that I was looking at the Mississippi as we went down the east side to Lacrosse, and if not for the rock walls built on either side of the tracks, those tracks would have been under water, too. And to repeat my previous point, this is a DAILY run. For it to be news when they reached Mpls, the flood would have had to been BRAND NEW, like 7 or 8am on the day I left. Maybe you have info I don't, but I really don't think with all the HEAVY rains in Minnesota (where I live), this was a problem that couldn't have had preparation. Nor the running out of food. Nor the 3 hours in line in Chicago. I guess people not having to deal with it are of a mind to be generous. I guess it will have to happen to you to see if this kind of charity is real or not.

Postscript: My train left the morning of June 18. The following story says the river flooded June 15. How did they manage to go through Red Wing and Winona on June 15-17.
Flooding Story

Edited by RRUserious, 23 June 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[RRUserious]

Amtrak keeps emailing me about responding to my post at Amtrak.com. I wonder if they ever really will. They know I have no intention of keeping whatever they say a secret. Well, we'll see. If I have to vow confidentiality to get any response, then I wouldnt expect one. In my mind, they had a "cluster bleep", the kind of thing that I've seen organizations just sweep under the rug (October 1984 was one of those for First Bank System. I saw how the management did that one).

[Hotblack Desiato]

Not sure what you're trying to say. I do know that I was looking at the Mississippi as we went down the east side to Lacrosse, and if not for the rock walls built on either side of the tracks, those tracks would have been under water, too. And to repeat my previous point, this is a DAILY run. For it to be news when they reached Mpls, the flood would have had to been BRAND NEW, like 7 or 8am on the day I left. Maybe you have info I don't, but I really don't think with all the HEAVY rains in Minnesota (where I live), this was a problem that couldn't have had preparation. Nor the running out of food. Nor the 3 hours in line in Chicago. I guess people not having to deal with it are of a mind to be generous. I guess it will have to happen to you to see if this kind of charity is real or not.

Postscript: My train left the morning of June 18. The following story says the river flooded June 15. How did they manage to go through Red Wing and Winona on June 15-17.
Flooding Story

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with stressing that it is a DAILY train. Then you wonder how the train ran through the previous days, but not on the day you traveled. Maybe the railroad was open June 15-17, and closed on June 18? Why is that such a shocking prospect?

Amtrak doesn't own the railroad. East of St. Paul, it's Canadian Pacific. If Canadian Pacific tells them the railroad is closed, then it's closed.

Then Amtrak has to call BNSF and get pilots.

[TraneMan]

Not sure what you're trying to say. I do know that I was looking at the Mississippi as we went down the east side to Lacrosse, and if not for the rock walls built on either side of the tracks, those tracks would have been under water, too. And to repeat my previous point, this is a DAILY run. For it to be news when they reached Mpls, the flood would have had to been BRAND NEW, like 7 or 8am on the day I left. Maybe you have info I don't, but I really don't think with all the HEAVY rains in Minnesota (where I live), this was a problem that couldn't have had preparation. Nor the running out of food. Nor the 3 hours in line in Chicago. I guess people not having to deal with it are of a mind to be generous. I guess it will have to happen to you to see if this kind of charity is real or not.

Postscript: My train left the morning of June 18. The following story says the river flooded June 15. How did they manage to go through Red Wing and Winona on June 15-17.
Flooding Story

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with stressing that it is a DAILY train. Then you wonder how the train ran through the previous days, but not on the day you traveled. Maybe the railroad was open June 15-17, and closed on June 18? Why is that such a shocking prospect?

Amtrak doesn't own the railroad. East of St. Paul, it's Canadian Pacific. If Canadian Pacific tells them the railroad is closed, then it's closed.

Then Amtrak has to call BNSF and get pilots.

I was not aware what date you were on the train.. I was thinking you were on the train the 15th.

[jis]

Postscript: My train left the morning of June 18. The following story says the river flooded June 15. How did they manage to go through Red Wing and Winona on June 15-17.
Flooding Story

I don't get it. Did the news report say that the river flooded and encroached on the railroad starting June 15? Isn't it possible that the river flooded but the railroad RoW was not encroached upon on June 15 through 17, and then something breached after June 17th bringing water onto the RoW on the 18th, or the bridge pillars got under scoured making them unstable after June 17th? So what you are effectively suggesting is just because the Cannon River started flooding on the 15th, even though it did not affect the tracks Amtrak should either have canceled the EB or rerouted it already. Somehow that does not make sense to me.

[fairviewroad]

Next thing was the train was, we were told, out of food. It had been served during the delays in North Dakota. They had got Subway sandwiches in Wisconsin Dells. We were told to take these or eat at Chicago. Everyone took whatever was handed them. When they were all gone, now we learned we could get food in the cafe. Deceive the customers to get rid of all the sandwiches.

Now this I don't get. You'd rather PAY for microwaved cafe car food instead of getting a free, relatively fresh Subway sandwich? Why is this something to complain about? I've received the
Subway lunch on a very late EB, and frankly I thought it was a nice touch. Maybe the communication was lacking, but Amtrak employees would have no particular incentive to "deceive"
the customers in this situation. Maybe the cafe re-opened, but the selection was limited and they didn't want everyone assuming they could get a meal when the only thing left was
candy and sodas (I'm just speculating, of course.)

There are two things you mention that I agree are worth complaining about:

The lack of communication about the delay in MSP, and the long line to receive the vouchers in CHI. For some reason, communicating with passengers
never seems to be the strong point of Amtrak. And while I've also stood inline for hours to receive airline vouchers, at least in those cases there was little
to no advance notice (i.e. a last-minute mechanical cancellation). In Amtrak's case, there's no excuse. They should have had everything pre-printed and
ready to go upon your arrival in CHI.

[RRUserious]

It seems arrival time is an abstraction when you ride a train through the Midwest. Only one train has left at the scheduled time. NO trains have arrived anywhere at the time given on the schedule. Seems like their experience doesn't feed the schedule at all. To be fair, I recently read that Delta had an ontime percentage of 60. That's better than the zero percentage I've experienced on the train, but still the number is pretty low and begs the question "Why don't they just put down arrival times from their experience'. How would Amtrak gain from projecting a time they know they can't meet?

Anyway, with all legs of the round trip completed, not one arrival was near what was predicted. And only Via Rail was able to take off at the scheduled time. The schedule is a speculative document.