Jump to content




Help Support AmtrakTrains.com by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.

Photo

1971-1979 Amtrak ridership


  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#41 Eric S

Eric S

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,329 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milwaukee

Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:54 PM

Amtrak ridership and passenger-miles, as listed in Amtrak: An American Story, plus 2011 ridership:


1971 - 6.45 M
1972 - 15.85 M; 3,038 M
1973 - 16.96 M; 3,806 M
1974 - 18.67 M; 4,258 M
1975 - 17.27 M; 3,939 M
1976 - 18.05 M; 4,155 M
1977 - 18.96 M; 4,333 M
1978 - 18.92 M; 4,029 M
1979 - 21.41 M; 4,915 M
1980 - 21.22 M; 4,582 M
1981 - 20.61 M; 4,762 M
1982 - 19.04 M; 4,172 M
1983 - 19.04 M; 4,246 M
1984 - 19.94 M; 4,552 M
1985 - 20.78 M; 4,825 M
1986 - 20.33 M; 5,013 M
1987 - 20.41 M; 5,221 M
1988 - 21.50 M; 5,678 M
1989 - 21.36 M; 5,859 M
1990 - 22.19 M; 6,057 M
1991 - 22.06 M; 6,273 M
1992 - 21.35 M; 6,091 M
1993 - 22.07 M; 6,199 M
1994 - 21.84 M; 5,921 M
1995 - 20.73 M; 5,545 M
1996 - 19.61 M; 5,050 M
1997 - 20.19 M; 5,166 M
1998 - 21.09 M; 5,304 M
1999 - 21.51 M; 5,330 M
2000 - 22.52 M; 5,498 M
2001 - 23.49 M; 5,559 M
2002 - 23.41 M; 5,468 M
2003 - 24.03 M; 5,503 M
2004 - 25.05 M; 5,558 M
2005 - 25.37 M; 5,420 M
2006 - 24.39 M; 5,362 M
2007 - 25.85 M; 5,562 M
2008 - 28.72 M; 6,160 M
2009 - 27.17 M; 5,898 M
2010 - 28.72 M; 6,332 M
2011 - 30.19 M

#42 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:05 PM


As to the '79 cuts, part of it is that Amtrak's subsidy got crunched. There was also a "passengers per train" metric of some sort that was used to determine which trains got the axe, which meant that some trains that were selling out often (such as the National Limited) were cut because Amtrak lacked the equipment to expand them to meet the requirements. With that said, it is quite possible that the Floridian had suffered for long enough up until then that they were unable to get a ridership rebound in time to save the train.

When it comes to evaluating to cut a service, they may have looked at the numbers over the previous 2-3 complete fiscal year reports. If the National Limited had started to improve in 1978, the improvement may be too little to change the overall bottom line numbers.

The cuts as I understand it, the cuts were supposedly based on cost recovery numbers. Total ridership provides a very incomplete snapshot. Does not tell us the revenue mix - lot of short haul passengers paying less for tickets or long haul sleeper passengers providing more revenue. The biggest missing part of the picture is how much did it costs to run those trains at that time? Did the train have high crew costs because of inefficient routes or rules that resulted in more crew shifts than needed? Or high pending costs for the route because of decaying tracks and stations.

Still, looking at several of the 1977 and 1978 schedules, there are some interesting trains on there that I wonder how well they would do now (if the tracks were there, all in good condition): the Hilltopper for the interesting route, the Niagara Rainbow, the Shenandoah to Cincinnati. In many ways, in the eastern half of the US, Ohio suffered the biggest loss in passenger train service from the mid-1970s through the early 2000s.


The Shenandoah would be very good if it was still here today, IMO.

Amtrak ridership and passenger-miles, as listed in Amtrak: An American Story, plus 2011 ridership:


Very nice information, Eric. I am very interested in the big ridership increase from 1971-1972. This might be related to Amtrak starting only in May.
MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
LINER ANVIL
PROUD HATER OF THE D4505, TD925, AND T2145
MCI 102DL3WC INTERCITY MOTORCOACH SUPREMACY Professional Drivers Commited to Safety 1-800-SAFE-BUS SEATING CAPACITY: 50 PASSENGERS PT70414
TAKE IT EASY  TAKE THE GREYHOUND
OPERATOR: GREYHOUND CANADA TRANSPORTATION CORP. CAGARY, AB NSC-000026177, FHA-MC-304126 TARE 15,000 KGS GVW 20,140 KGS
DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60

#43 Eric S

Eric S

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,329 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milwaukee

Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:18 PM

The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?

There was such a great variation that I will just list a few specific configurations.

1971 - baggage, sleeper, diner-lounge, coach to Newport News; 2 coaches to Washington

1975 - baggage, sleeper, 2 coaches, lunch counter-diner-dorm to Washington; 1 coach to Newport News

1981 - baggage, sleeper, cafe, 4 coaches

1986 - baggage, diner, lounge, 2 sleepers, 7-8 coaches

1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches

#44 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:28 PM


The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?

There was such a great variation that I will just list a few specific configurations.

1971 - baggage, sleeper, diner-lounge, coach to Newport News; 2 coaches to Washington

1975 - baggage, sleeper, 2 coaches, lunch counter-diner-dorm to Washington; 1 coach to Newport News

1981 - baggage, sleeper, cafe, 4 coaches

1986 - baggage, diner, lounge, 2 sleepers, 7-8 coaches

1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches


Wow, the Cardinal was really long in 1986, with up to thirteen cars. With all trains so long back then, I am now really interested in a Amtrak fleet roster before the Heritages were dumped.

I am still waiting for old Champion and SL ridership figures. LSL and BL figures would also be interesting.
MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
LINER ANVIL
PROUD HATER OF THE D4505, TD925, AND T2145
MCI 102DL3WC INTERCITY MOTORCOACH SUPREMACY Professional Drivers Commited to Safety 1-800-SAFE-BUS SEATING CAPACITY: 50 PASSENGERS PT70414
TAKE IT EASY  TAKE THE GREYHOUND
OPERATOR: GREYHOUND CANADA TRANSPORTATION CORP. CAGARY, AB NSC-000026177, FHA-MC-304126 TARE 15,000 KGS GVW 20,140 KGS
DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60

#45 Ispolkom

Ispolkom

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,076 posts
  • Location:St. Paul, Minn.

Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:40 PM

1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches


Yes, I remember that on my honeymoon in 1992 the City of New Orleans had some sort of dinette (I remember that the tray meals were vastly inferior to the proper diner meals on the Crescent), while the Cardinal did have a proper diner. Heritage sleepers, of course, on the all three trains, the Crescent, the City of New Orleans, and the Cardinal.

#46 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:39 AM

Average passenger miles per passenger (i.e. average journey length):
1972: 191.67
1973: 224.41
1974: 228.07
1975: 228.08
1976: 230.19
1977: 228.53
1978: 212.95
1979: 229.57
1980: 215.93
1981: 231.05
1982: 219.12
1983: 223.00
1984: 228.28
1985: 232.19
1986: 246.63
1987: 255.81
1988: 264.09
1989: 274.30
1990: 272.96
1991: 284.36
1992: 285.29
1993: 280.88
1994: 271.11
1995: 267.49
1996: 257.52
1997: 255.87
1998: 251.49
1999: 247.79
2000: 244.14
2001: 236.65
2002: 233.58
2003: 229.01
2004: 221.88
2005: 213.64
2006: 219.84
2007: 215.16
2008: 214.48
2009: 217.08
2010: 220.47

Takeaway: Claytor sent LD ridership rising; Warrington seems to have done a good job of trashing it, and Gunn (I think) and Kummant did their best to knock it down further, though the cuts of the 90s of some of the LD trains certainly played a role here. The numbers in the 2000s are held down by the boom on the Acela (WAS-NYP is only 225 miles) and in state-supported corridors. However, towards the end there is a modest reversal of the trend (which accompanies a resurgence in the LD trains as the decade has gone on).
Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#47 johnny.menhennet

johnny.menhennet

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,445 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Solana Beach, CA
  • Interests:taekwondo, geography, current events, speech and debate, TRAINS

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:18 AM

I don't think I help those numbers very much :) Though I'm hoping that my EMY-DEN and CHI-BOS in the last year will help balance all of my corridor ridership out.

Amtrak: Pacific Surfliner (100000000000), Southwest Chief (5), California Zephyr (1), Coast Starlight (6), Capitol Corridor (1), Empire Builder (2), Acela Express (1), LSL (1), NE Regional (2)
Non-Amtrak: NCTD Coaster (at least 20), Metrolink (4), SD Trolley (at least 20), LACMTA Red Line (at least 50), Seattle Streetcar (1), Chicago 'L' (probably 13), NYC Subway (probably 15), WMATA Mass Transit (probably 20), LIRR (1), Las Vegas Monorail (at least 12), MBTA Mass Transit (16), NJ Transit commuter rail (3), I'm sure there are more that I can't think of right now

upcoming Amtrak: Pacific Surfliner (10000000000 more)
upcoming non-Amtrak: Coaster, Red Line/Expo Line in LA, NJ Transit (5-10)

Pretty good for a 16 year old :)


#48 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:38 AM

The Shenandoah would be very good if it was still here today, IMO.

One problem is that CSX has abandoned significant portions of the route that was used by the Shenandoah between Cumberland and Cincinnati.

Incidentally, Shenandoah carried the famous Ampad

Still, looking at several of the 1977 and 1978 schedules, there are some interesting trains on there that I wonder how well they would do now (if the tracks were there, all in good condition): the Hilltopper for the interesting route, the Niagara Rainbow, the Shenandoah to Cincinnati.


The Hilltopper, while interesting, was maintained due to Congressman Harley Staggers (of Stagger's Act fame) and was variously called Harley's Hornet or Harley's Comet. It was a purely political train which arrived at its destination at 12:45am and departed at 5:30am, connecting to the Cardinal 8 hours after its arrival and 12 hours before its departure at Catlettsburg/Tri-State Station. It was sort of a poster child for everything that was wrong with Amtrak, a role played later by the Chicago - Janesville train.

At least theoretically the Cardinal could be rerouted via the Hilltopper's route between Lynchburg and Catlettsburg but it adds somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 hours to its schedule and essentially makes it a two night service. It does however add service both east and westbound to Roanoke and Bluefield for what it is worth, and allows one to see a different part of the New River :)

Speaking of the Cardinal, it was actually cut in 1981, but then was restored as an unfunded mandate from Congress in early 1982.

1998 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; quad-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio


This is from fuzzy memory, but was this also the period when there was 4 times a week service between San Antonio and Los Angeles? Or was it just after the Texas Eagle went daily, thanks to Senator Hutchinson? I seem to recall there was a brief period when there was a fourth frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles.

Takeaway: Claytor sent LD ridership rising; Warrington seems to have done a good job of trashing it, and Gunn (I think) and Kummant did their best to knock it down further, though the cuts of the 90s of some of the LD trains certainly played a role here. The numbers in the 2000s are held down by the boom on the Acela (WAS-NYP is only 225 miles) and in state-supported corridors. However, towards the end there is a modest reversal of the trend (which accompanies a resurgence in the LD trains as the decade has gone on).

It would be interesting to see what the corresponding revenue per passenger mile works out to for each year.

Edited by jis, 24 June 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#49 Eric S

Eric S

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,329 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milwaukee

Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:08 PM


1998 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; quad-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio


This is from fuzzy memory, but was this also the period when there was 4 times a week service between San Antonio and Los Angeles? Or was it just after the Texas Eagle went daily, thanks to Senator Hutchinson? I seem to recall there was a brief period when there was a fourth frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles.

Yes, that's correct, when the Texas Eagle went to 4 days/week south of St. Louis, on the one of the four days when the Sunset Limited did not operate, the Texas Eagle provided the fourth weekly frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles. I ignored the Los Angeles cars in my Texas Eagle descriptions, as I did not have complete information as to when those cars operated over the years.

#50 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:30 PM

Average passenger miles per passenger (i.e. average journey length):
1992: 285.29


Looks like 1992 had the highest passenger miles per passenger. Despite the ridership increases, the LD ridership is not that high.

The Hilltopper, while interesting, was maintained due to Congressman Harley Staggers (of Stagger's Act fame) and was variously called Harley's Hornet or Harley's Comet. It was a purely political train which arrived at its destination at 12:45am and departed at 5:30am, connecting to the Cardinal 8 hours after its arrival and 12 hours before its departure at Catlettsburg/Tri-State Station. It was sort of a poster child for everything that was wrong with Amtrak, a role played later by the Chicago - Janesville train.


Why in the world would somebody run a passenger train to Catlettsburg? That just has no practical reason.
What is the Niagara Rainbow?
MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
LINER ANVIL
PROUD HATER OF THE D4505, TD925, AND T2145
MCI 102DL3WC INTERCITY MOTORCOACH SUPREMACY Professional Drivers Commited to Safety 1-800-SAFE-BUS SEATING CAPACITY: 50 PASSENGERS PT70414
TAKE IT EASY  TAKE THE GREYHOUND
OPERATOR: GREYHOUND CANADA TRANSPORTATION CORP. CAGARY, AB NSC-000026177, FHA-MC-304126 TARE 15,000 KGS GVW 20,140 KGS
DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60

#51 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:56 PM

Why in the world would somebody run a passenger train to Catlettsburg? That just has no practical reason.
What is the Niagara Rainbow?

One runs a train to Catlettsburg just because one can force it to be run by threatening budget approval for the rest of the system if it is not run.

The Niagara Rainbow was for a period a train that ran from New York to Detroit running through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. It was originally introduce sometime around late 1974 as an extension of the Empire State Express to Detroit funded by Michigan and New York states, and then the name was changed around 1976. It was a day train so it carried no sleepers. It left New York Grand Central at 8:30am arriving Detroit at 10:05pm and left Detroit at 7:45am arriving back at NYG at 9:50pm. See the 1975 New York - Buffalo - Detroit Timetable (see Empire State Express in that timetable). Notice that there was no Maple Leaf yet. Also notice that there was no Niagara Falls service either, and the connecting service to Toronto ran on a close approximation of the route that would need to be brought back if the Whirlpool Bridge actually gets abandoned by CN without Amtrak/VIA/New York/Ontario taking it over.

It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.

Edited by jis, 24 June 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#52 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.


What happened after that? Did it get renamed the Maple Leaf?

Edited by Swadian Hardcore, 24 June 2012 - 04:30 PM.

MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
LINER ANVIL
PROUD HATER OF THE D4505, TD925, AND T2145
MCI 102DL3WC INTERCITY MOTORCOACH SUPREMACY Professional Drivers Commited to Safety 1-800-SAFE-BUS SEATING CAPACITY: 50 PASSENGERS PT70414
TAKE IT EASY  TAKE THE GREYHOUND
OPERATOR: GREYHOUND CANADA TRANSPORTATION CORP. CAGARY, AB NSC-000026177, FHA-MC-304126 TARE 15,000 KGS GVW 20,140 KGS
DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60

#53 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:19 PM


It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.


Wht happened after that? Did it get renamed the Maple Leaf?

No. It was still called the Niagara Rainbow and continued to run to Niagara Falls. The Maple Leaf was introduced as the first joint venture between Amtrak and VIA in 1981.

There are a couple of other interesting things to note in the timetables for the Empire Corridor circa 1974-75.

In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the Montrealer and one of the Silvers (81/82 Silver Star) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no Lake Shore Limited. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the Silver Star, the Silver Meteor and the Champion. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the Miamian which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The Silver Meteor apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.

Edited by jis, 24 June 2012 - 02:19 PM.


#54 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:42 PM

I've wondered about rerouting the Cardinal via LYH/ROA, actually, for the very reasons that you mentioned (plus getting it off of the BBRR, which has just been a problem and which IIRC is one of the stumbling blocks to daily service). However, assuming that the train starts in NYP instead of BOS, the extra hours would actually help the train by pushing the Cincinatti hours later in the morning. Not only that, but it would also likely provide the "reverse" service for Lynchburg and Charlottesville that is greatly desired...honestly, such a train could probably operate with a smaller operating loss than the Cardinal currently does between CIN-IND-CHI business and ROA-LYH-CVS-WAS-NYP business (and might even need an extra coach or two ROA-NYP if those intermediate markets keep growing).

Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.

Edit: I figured out what the magic "cut" metric was for '79: Passenger miles per train mile.

Edited by Anderson, 24 June 2012 - 02:52 PM.

Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#55 jis

jis

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,920 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
  • Interests:Trains, Planes and Travel

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.

Yes. The Hilltopper ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the Hilltopper was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the Hilltopper look good. :)

For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the Cardinal that way too :lol:

Edited by jis, 24 June 2012 - 02:52 PM.


#56 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:02 PM


Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.

Yes. The Hilltopper ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the Hilltopper was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the Hilltopper look good. :)

For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the Cardinal that way too :lol:


lol...that would probably be a bad idea. In the long run, though, connecting with a hypothetical TDX at either Roanoke or Lynchburg might be worthwhile (and might actually restore the Hampton Roads-to-the-west link if interest and ridership could be found for a set of through cars).
Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#57 Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,405 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Halmar, EOS 1M8P
  • Interests:Transportation, business, politics, and military history.

Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:34 PM

In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the Montrealer and one of the Silvers (81/82 Silver Star) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no Lake Shore Limited. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the Silver Star, the Silver Meteor and the Champion. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the Miamian which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The Silver Meteor apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.


The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.

I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.

The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.

Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.
MCI 102DL3 SUPERFAN
LINER ANVIL
PROUD HATER OF THE D4505, TD925, AND T2145
MCI 102DL3WC INTERCITY MOTORCOACH SUPREMACY Professional Drivers Commited to Safety 1-800-SAFE-BUS SEATING CAPACITY: 50 PASSENGERS PT70414
TAKE IT EASY  TAKE THE GREYHOUND
OPERATOR: GREYHOUND CANADA TRANSPORTATION CORP. CAGARY, AB NSC-000026177, FHA-MC-304126 TARE 15,000 KGS GVW 20,140 KGS
DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60

#58 afigg

afigg

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,876 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:12 PM

Yes. The Hilltopper ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the Hilltopper was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the Hilltopper look good. :)

For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the Cardinal that way too :lol:

That was an, umm, interesting route. Catlettsburg KY is not exactly a town that comes to mind as a logical place to terminate a train route. :blink:

edit: word order

Edited by afigg, 24 June 2012 - 10:27 PM.


#59 Anderson

Anderson

    Engineer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:46 PM


In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the Montrealer and one of the Silvers (81/82 Silver Star) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no Lake Shore Limited. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the Silver Star, the Silver Meteor and the Champion. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the Miamian which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The Silver Meteor apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.


The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.

I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.

The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.

Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.


Most of the ideas I suggest draw on things that have happened before. In a sense, what I tend to kick around focuses on getting back as much of that which has been lost over the years more than anything. Yes, maybe getting it back a bit faster or over a different routing, but still getting it back.
Capitol Limited (7), CA Zephyr (4) Lake Shore Limited (1), Acela (2), NE Regional (2), Sliver Meteor (4)

Upcoming: Silver Meteor (1), Lake Shore Limited (1), SW Chief (2), MO River Runner (1), Texas Eagle (1)

Possibly Upcoming: Either Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (2) or Texas Eagle (1), Capitol Limited (1), Silver Meteor (1)

#60 Mackensen

Mackensen

    OBS Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 395 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lehigh Valley

Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:53 PM


In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the Montrealer and one of the Silvers (81/82 Silver Star) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no Lake Shore Limited. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the Silver Star, the Silver Meteor and the Champion. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the Miamian which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The Silver Meteor apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.


The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.

I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.

The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.

Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.


The modern Lake Shore Limited's first run is October 31, 1975, with both New York and Boston sections. One thing to consider with the LSL is that it drew off patronage from the Broadway Limited, but I don't have hard figures for that.

Edited by Mackensen, 24 June 2012 - 08:57 PM.

Routes traveled: Blue Water, California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Coast Starlight, Crescent, Empire Builder, Hiawatha Service, International Limited, Lake Cities, Lake Shore Limited, Northeast Regional, Pere Marquette, Southwest Chief, Twilight Limited, Vermonter, Wolverine. Total miles 41,649+





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users