24 replies to this topic

[afigg]

The selection of the TIGER IV grants are being announced today by the politicians in the states and districts. I expect the US DOT will post a complete list in a press release tomorrow after the politicians have a day or 2 to take credit in the news cycle. So this is an incomplete list of what I have found so far that are relevant to Amtrak.

-Vermont gets $8 million (with $3 million state match) to rehabilitate the 19 miles of track from St. Albans to the Canadian border. The odds of a Vermonter extension to Montreal in 2-3 years just went up. Governor Shumlin's press release.

-Springfield MA gets $17 million as the final piece of funding for building the intermodal station. They now expect demolition to begin in October or November with the new station open by late 2014. Masslive.com news article.

-Rochester NY gets $15 million for the new intermodal train station project. News article.

There are some freight rail and transit grants that may indirectly benefit Amtrak. I'll post an update once the US DOT list is posted. As background, there are $500 million in TIGER IV funds to award for FY12 with the US DOT announcing that at least $100 million of that would go to intercity passenger rail projects. The US DOT received $10.2 billion in total application requests, so most applications won't get anything.

[Swadian Hardcore]

That dosen't sound like very much money to reopen a route. What are things looking like on the Canadian side? If those tracks are damaged then the Montrealer is not coming back.

edit: error

Edited by Swadian Hardcore, 20 June 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Tracktwentynine]

That dosen't sound like very much money to reopen a route. What are things looking like on the Canadian side? If those tracks are damaged then the Montrealer is not coming back.

edit: error

The tracks are still used for trains, as I understand it, it's not like the route is gone. But passenger trains require a little higher standard.

Anyway, it's not the Montrealer that would be coming back, but an extension of the Vermonter to Montreal. This has been being talked about for quite a while in Vermont, and a month or so ago, they announced that they were going to build preclearance facilities at Gare Centrale, which is a prerequisite for bringing back the Vermonter to Montreal.

[jis]

That dosen't sound like very much money to reopen a route. What are things looking like on the Canadian side? If those tracks are damaged then the Montrealer is not coming back.

edit: error

Of the two routes that feed into the CN line used by the Adirondack from Cantic to Montreal, there is way more traffic on the St, Albans line than on the Rouses Point Line. AFAIK the only train from Rouses Point is the Adirondack. The switch at Cantic is default set towards St. Albans. The Adirondack crew has to set it to their direction and reset it back towards St, Albans after they pass it. So the St. Albans to Cantic route is actually used way more than the Rouses Point to Cantic route. Naturally all of the CP traffic on the Adirondack line branches off along CP and does not go on CN.

The Canadian side between Cantic and Montreal is used by the Adirondack already.

[afigg]

The tracks are still used for trains, as I understand it, it's not like the route is gone. But passenger trains require a little higher standard.

Anyway, it's not the Montrealer that would be coming back, but an extension of the Vermonter to Montreal. This has been being talked about for quite a while in Vermont, and a month or so ago, they announced that they were going to build preclearance facilities at Gare Centrale, which is a prerequisite for bringing back the Vermonter to Montreal.

If or when the news is officially announced that the Vermonter will be extended to Montreal, I expect we will see a number of posts and articles thinking that the overnight Montrealer will be restored to service. No, Vermont is paying for the train which will remain a day train and I don't see any reason why the state would change the name of the Vermonter. The name does a good job of informing potential passengers where the train goes - Vermont!

There is a Trains Magazine News wire story on the TIGER grant award to VT that is likely behind a pay wall to all non-subscriber, so I'll skip posting a link, but there is this useful information in the report:

"Parker said Quebec is now looking into funding higher speeds north of the border, and Amtrak is working on a service plan in collaboration with the Agency of Transportation. The states of Vermont, New York, and the Province of Quebec have funded architectural design of the facility in Montreal jointly."

If Quebec is willing to fund track upgrades on the Canadian side in combination with the Customs facility in Montreal, the Adirondack and Vermonter will see some of the biggest improvements in trip time and service extension of all the current Amtrak trains. And for among the lowest cost projects to fund.

[afigg]

I don't see a TIGER IV award press release on the US DOT website yet, so they are probably giving the politicians another day to issue press releases to the local press to get their names in the articles. Other Amtrak TIGER IV grants I see in the Google searches:

-$15 million to rehabilitate the Sacramento, CA station. Congresswoman Matsui's Press release.

-$10.4 million for Chicago CREATE projects which will complete a $370 million funding package of 15 local projects. Eight of the projects are on the western Avenue corridor with the Chicago to St. Louis service listed as among the trains and freight routes benefiting from the projects.

[Blackwolf]

-$15 million to rehabilitate the Sacramento, CA station. Congresswoman Matsui's Press release.

Wow, $15 Million? For that amount, Sacramento should have a pretty darn nice station in a few years. And as anyone who has traveled through SAC will likely attest, it is sorely needed.

[afigg]

Wow, $15 Million? For that amount, Sacramento should have a pretty darn nice station in a few years. And as anyone who has traveled through SAC will likely attest, it is sorely needed.

The $15 million of TIGER IV grant will be matched by $15 million in local funds. $30 million may sound like a lot, but for a large station complex (over 1.1 million Amtrak passengers in FY11) that I would expect is being reconfigured to handle major future growth, the costs add up.

Looks like the theme for the intercity passenger rail grants portion of the TIGER IV awards is for station upgrades. Found one more grant:

-$21 million to Raliegh, NC for the track and signal upgrades for the new train station. Raleigh asked for a total of $60 million for the intermodal station, so they have to locate more funding to build the new station. Local news article.

[AmtrakBlue]

I think I just saw a headline related to this for DE. A transportation hub across and slightly down the tracks from the NRK station. Hopefully this will allow SEPTA & MARC to "meet". SEPTA already goes here, But MARC only comes up as far as Perryville.

[afigg]

The US DOT press release and 53 page PDF description of the TIGER IV grants were posted this morning. As noted, we can add:

-$10 million for a new Newark, DE station, aka the Newark Regional Transportation Center. Project total cost is $26 million, will have 2 high level platforms, new station building, re-alignment of and new track at the nearby NS yard tracks. Will complete one part of needed upgrades for someday extending MARC service to Newark DE to meet up with SEPTA.

Expanding on previous items
-The $10.4 million to the Chicago CREATE project will complete 2 projects on the Western Avenue rail corridor, including replacing 16 hand thrown switches with automatic switches, installing a computerized traffic control system. Listed as reducing delays for freight and passenger trains including the CHI-STL corridor. The CHI-STL higher speed corridor gets a little more funding this week.

-The $15 million for the Rochester Intermodal Center project includes a high-level platform, overhead pedestrian bridge, track and signal work. Worth noting that in the east, Rochester NY, Springfield MA, Newark DE (on the NEC, so yea), Raleigh NC will all get high level platforms which will improve the trip times for the trains using those stations.

I made an error on the Springfield MA station funding. The station project received $17 million this week, but it was not a TIGER IV grant. Might have been just the obligation of a previous award; article is not clear. The announcement was made the same time the TIGER IV grants were being announced, but I did not read the article closely enough. Bottom line is the Springfield MA intermodal station project is fully funded, so it will be going ahead with a late 2014 projected completion date - after many years of studies.

Grants peripherally related to Amtrak:
-$10 million to Hartford CT for the Hartford Intermodal Transportation Triangle which is described in part as improving bus and pedestrian access to the Hartford train station.
-$12.8 million to SEPTA to replace the Wayne Junction power sub-station for the former Reading lines.
-$18 million to Fort Lauderdale for the Wave Streetcar project.
-Some freight rail port access and grade crossing separation projects.

[Tracktwentynine]

Anyway, it's not the Montrealer that would be coming back, but an extension of the Vermonter to Montreal. This has been being talked about for quite a while in Vermont, and a month or so ago, they announced that they were going to build preclearance facilities at Gare Centrale, which is a prerequisite for bringing back the Vermonter to Montreal.

If or when the news is officially announced that the Vermonter will be extended to Montreal, I expect we will see a number of posts and articles thinking that the overnight Montrealer will be restored to service. No, Vermont is paying for the train which will remain a day train and I don't see any reason why the state would change the name of the Vermonter. The name does a good job of informing potential passengers where the train goes - Vermont!

Yes, if the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, it will still be a day train. But I personally believe the corridor can support an overnight train in addition to the Adirondack and the Vermonter. I think it makes the most sense to run that overnight train as a restored Montrealer (on the route of the Vermonter). But of course, a third daily train will have to come later.

[jis]

Yes, if the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, it will still be a day train. But I personally believe the corridor can support an overnight train in addition to the Adirondack and the Vermonter. I think it makes the most sense to run that overnight train as a restored Montrealer (on the route of the Vermonter). But of course, a third daily train will have to come later.

As long as enough subsidy is found anything is possible. But a third train that will come anywhere close to breaking even is highly unlikely. The single existing train to Montreal has a long way to go before it makes that, not to mention the existing Vermont service.

I do think however that it is worthwhile convincing folks to come up with the necessary subsidy in due course.

[Tracktwentynine]

Yes, if the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, it will still be a day train. But I personally believe the corridor can support an overnight train in addition to the Adirondack and the Vermonter. I think it makes the most sense to run that overnight train as a restored Montrealer (on the route of the Vermonter). But of course, a third daily train will have to come later.

As long as enough subsidy is found anything is possible. But a third train that will come anywhere close to breaking even is highly unlikely. The single existing train to Montreal has a long way to go before it makes that, not to mention the existing Vermont service.

I do think however that it is worthwhile convincing folks to come up with the necessary subsidy in due course.

I didn't mean that the corridor would be profitable enough to support 3 trains. I don't think Amtrak's sole goal should be profit. Although I will point out that having more departures tends to increase ridership, and that could increase revenues and decrease loss (or it might not, depends on how the economics work out). But the point is that it would make taking the train more feasible for more people, and the timing works out for an overnight train in the corridor.

[Swadian Hardcore]

What about the line for the existing Vermonter between Springfield and St. Albans? I think it can only run at 59 mph for pax trains, so will they improve that line? New Haven to Springfield should be OK.

[afigg]

Yes, if the Vermonter is extended to Montreal, it will still be a day train. But I personally believe the corridor can support an overnight train in addition to the Adirondack and the Vermonter. I think it makes the most sense to run that overnight train as a restored Montrealer (on the route of the Vermonter). But of course, a third daily train will have to come later.

I don't see that a overnight train to Montreal from NYP through VT is going to get anywhere near enough business if there are competing day trains in the next decade or two. The distance between NYP and MTR is a corridor train distance, not an overnight train distance as is NYC to Chicago, Atlanta, Florida for example. The Vermonter ridership numbers are not that large, although it should see significant growth once the track improvements in VT & MA are done and then provide service between MTR and VT & central New England.

Is a route through CT, MA, VT the best one for an overnight service to MTR? The numbers are probably not easy to find, but how much business did the Montrealer get between MTR and Hartford, New Haven, and Stamford? There would also be the possible issue of Amtrak using up a slot on the New Haven line which Amtrak would rather use for an Inland Route NE Regional. There is also, as has been discussed before, the critical issue that the Montrealer route from WAS to MTR was less than 750 miles, so which state is going to pay for it?

A more likely service expansion, if the Adirondack ridership takes off with the Customs facility and track improvements for a much better trip time, would be for NY state to add a second daily Adirondack. The second Adirondack could depart NYP in the 1 to 2 PM period, depending on how much the trip time can be cut, which would allow connections from a northbound Silver Meteor, Virginia Regionals. However same day connections from MTR to a southbound Meteor departing NYP would be impossible unless there was an early AM departure from MTR and the Meteor departure was moved to later in the afternoon.

Still, a Vermonter to MTR will provide a single seat ride, albeit all day, from PHL and WAS. Or a single daily Adirondack with 2 hours less on the trip time could depart NYP at 10 AM, allowing for connections from PHL and WAS.

[afigg]

What about the line for the existing Vermonter between Springfield and St. Albans? I think it can only run at 59 mph for pax trains, so will they improve that line? New Haven to Springfield should be OK.

Ok, so you have not read the many discussions on the HSIPR funded projects in VT and MA. VT received $52 million for track and signal upgrades in VT which will allow track speeds from southern VT to White River Junction of 79 mph. The tracks from White River Jct to St. Albans have been replaced with continuous rail, but max speed will remain 59 mph. The work is planned to be completed this summer and the statements from VT officials are that 25 minutes will be taken off of the Vermonter route north of MA in the fall schedule.

MA received $72 million to restore the CT River line, aka the Knowledge Corridor, to passenger service with 2 new stations in Northampton and Greenfield with track work finally beginning this year. When the Vermonter gets re-routed back to the CT River line, it will cut 25 minutes off of the trip time and eliminate the reverse move at Palmer. From the newspaper, the completion date for the CT River line upgrades is now 2014.

The New Haven to Springfield line has received $191 million in federal funding with ~ $284 million of CT state funding for stations improvements, restoration of double tracking, and tracks upgraded to 110 mph max speed. CT's plans are for a commuter rail service from NHV to SPG. You can read all about it at the project website, but if CT can get the additional federal and state funding they need, the project is scheduled to be completed in the 2016-17 time frame. If it all gets done, the Vermonter and any Inland Route trains should cut around 30 minutes from the current NHV-SPG trip times.

So, yes, the entire route from New Haven through St. Albans will see significant improvements.

[the_traveler]

1340237436[/url]' post='374876']
Of the two routes that feed into the CN line used by the Adirondack from Cantic to Montreal, there is way more traffic on the St, Albans line than on the Rouses Point Line. AFAIK the only train from Rouses Point is the Adirondack. The switch at Cantic is default set towards St. Albans. The Adirondack crew has to set it to their direction and reset it back towards St, Albans after they pass it. So the St. Albans to Cantic route is actually used way more than the Rouses Point to Cantic route. Naturally all of the CP traffic on the Adirondack line branches off along CP and does not go on CN.

Only the Adirondack uses the tracks from Cantic to Rouses Point? CP purchased the D&H, so are you saying that CP does not run their trains from Canada to say Binghamton, NY through NYS and the former D&H? That doesn't make sense!

[The Davy Crockett]

A more likely service expansion, if the Adirondack ridership takes off with the Customs facility and track improvements for a much better trip time, would be for NY state to add a second daily Adirondack. The second Adirondack could depart NYP in the 1 to 2 PM period, depending on how much the trip time can be cut, which would allow connections from a northbound Silver Meteor, Virginia Regionals. However same day connections from MTR to a southbound Meteor departing NYP would be impossible unless there was an early AM departure from MTR and the Meteor departure was moved to later in the afternoon.

Still, a Vermonter to MTR will provide a single seat ride, albeit all day, from PHL and WAS. Or a single daily Adirondack with 2 hours less on the trip time could depart NYP at 10 AM, allowing for connections from PHL and WAS.

It sure would be nice to connect to the Adirondack from points south without having to either spend the night in NYC or spend some quality, early morning hours in NYP. Extending the Vermonter to MTR would also restore a service that went away with the Montrealer. I'd be happy with either, because as it is now, getting to eastern Canada by rail from the WAS area just plain stinks.

[jis]

1340237436[/url]' post='374876']
Of the two routes that feed into the CN line used by the Adirondack from Cantic to Montreal, there is way more traffic on the St, Albans line than on the Rouses Point Line. AFAIK the only train from Rouses Point is the Adirondack. The switch at Cantic is default set towards St. Albans. The Adirondack crew has to set it to their direction and reset it back towards St, Albans after they pass it. So the St. Albans to Cantic route is actually used way more than the Rouses Point to Cantic route. Naturally all of the CP traffic on the Adirondack line branches off along CP and does not go on CN.

Only the Adirondack uses the tracks from Cantic to Rouses Point? CP purchased the D&H, so are you saying that CP does not run their trains from Canada to say Binghamton, NY through NYS and the former D&H? That doesn't make sense!

CP does not run through CN Cantic that the Adirondack runs through. CP branches off to the west at Rouses Point station and all CP freights go that way and not on CN, the route of the Adirondack north of Rouses Point. Hope that explains the situation. I know it can be confusing.

[Blackwolf]

It sure would be nice to connect to the Adirondack from points south without having to either spend the night in NYC or spend some quality, early morning hours in NYP. Extending the Vermonter to MTR would also restore a service that went away with the Montrealer. I'd be happy with either, because as it is now, getting to eastern Canada by rail from the WAS area just plain stinks.

It is not just points south, but points east and west as well. Make the connection with the LSL so that it can be guaranteed and you now have connectivity with Boston as well as every town through to Chicago and points further west. This is me personally, but being able to travel from Sacramento all the way through to Montreal, and back the other way just the same, would make me a very happy customer. Eastern Canada is a place we (me and Mrs. Blackwolf) travel to at least once a year, and we like taking the train at least one of the directions. Right now, the logistics of this is an absolute mess, but if this junction is improved... Well, call me confident that there would be more business to be had!