20 replies to this topic

[MrFSS]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Flying is getting better. Honest.

For airline passengers grappling with fare increases, canceled routes and a seemingly endless parade of new fees, "better" may not be the first word that comes to mind. But based on more traditional yardsticks - lost bags, delayed flights, lousy service and bumpings from full planes - airlines are doing a better job, say private researchers who have analyzed federal data on airline performance.

Airlines are slowly, steadily recovering from their meltdown five years ago, when, under the strain of near-record consumer travel demand, their performance tanked. Industry performance for all four measurements was slightly better in 2011 compared with 2010, according to the report being released Monday. "Airlines are finally catching up with what their promise is, which is getting you there on time 80 percent of the time with your bags," said Dean Headley, a business professor at Wichita State University who has co-written the annual report for 22 years.

FULL STORY

[jis]

The airlines have learned a few lessons on the way. Some of those are, it is in everyone's interest not to let inventory grow to a point where it is impossible to get RASM above CASM. It makes sense to drop routes that will have no hope of ever becoming positive recovery routes. It is better to be able to keep revenues at a sustainable level and avoid cost cutting competition to extinction.

Also, while the consumers bellyache about the fall in quality of service, they have been an integral part of and a significant cause of the downslide themselves, since like everywhere else they have come to believe that they are entitled to get something for nothing. They want to pay the lowest fare and feel entitled to services that came with higher fares, and all this in the face of rising cost of inputs to the transportation business. This cognitive dissonance runs across the board in today's society, and there is nothing that can apparently fix that other than a few more rude shocks like 2008 maybe, and they will come as the night follows the day. The only question is how soon, not if.

[Devil's Advocate]

The overall rate of customer complaints was virtually unchanged, 1.19 in 2011 compared to 1.22 in 2010. Only five of 15 airlines improved their customer complaint rates for 2011 - AirTran, Delta, Frontier, Hawaiian and JetBlue.

Doesn't sound so great when they put it like that. Not to mention that AirTran is being cast into bureaucratic oblivion as the current wave of consolidation continues.

While the consumers bellyache about the fall in quality of service, they have been an integral part of and a significant cause of the downslide themselves, since like everywhere else they have come to believe that they are entitled to get something for nothing. They want to pay the lowest fare and feel entitled to services that came with higher fares, and all this in the face of rising cost of inputs to the transportation business.

1. The report referenced in this thread sounds like it's mainly measuring issues such as delays, cancellations, involuntary deboarding, and receiving your luggage at the end of your trip. Which of those metrics says "entitlement complex" to you?

2. It just so happens that I do want better service with my ex-SAT coach ticket and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it. Please explain exactly how I can vote with my dollars for the superior coach service I enjoyed in years past. Step-by-step if possible. Thanks!

This cognitive dissonance runs across the board in today's society, and there is nothing that can apparently fix that other than a few more rude shocks like 2008 maybe, and they will come as the night follows the day. The only question is how soon, not if.

Nothing says "cognitive dissonance" quite like blaming a consumer who lives in a supply side economy they have little if any control over.

[jis]

1. The report referenced in this thread sounds like it's mainly measuring issues such as delays, cancellations, involuntary deboarding, and receiving your luggage at the end of your trip. Which of those metrics says "entitlement complex" to you?

The entitlement thing comes in with the expectation that air fares will keep going down while services will remain the same. Lower air fares are a result of excessive capacity to some extent and preference of most customers to opt for the lowest possible fares to start with and then of course get surprised when each thing that was previously included in the higher fare is now charged for separately.

2. It just so happens that I do want better service with my ex-SAT coach ticket and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it. Please explain exactly how I can vote with my dollars for the superior coach service I enjoyed in years past. Step-by-step if possible. Thanks!

You as an individual can do so by flying first class for some of the better service. However, you as an individual have precious little control when all your fellow travelers opt for the lowest possible fare irrespective of the unintended consequences. So you are pretty much stuck, until the airlines themselves figure out that this is a no win game and tighten inventory enough to have higher load factors and be able to charge higher fares. Apparently that is what has started happening now.

This cognitive dissonance runs across the board in today's society, and there is nothing that can apparently fix that other than a few more rude shocks like 2008 maybe, and they will come as the night follows the day. The only question is how soon, not if.

Nothing says "cognitive dissonance" quite like blaming a consumer who lives in a supply side economy they have little if any control over.

Collectively they do have control, individually they don't. Collectively they are as much a participant in bringing unto themselves the "supply side economy" that is mentioned. But it appears to be very against the grain of this country to take any collective action since that is viewed to be socialist or something like that. More often than not, given a free choice people appear to choose courses of action that have negative consequences for themselves perhaps in an unintended way. For example shopping at discount mega-chains indirectly causes jobs to disappear from the US etc., but one does get things cheaper if they have any money to partake of same at the end of the day.

As I said, only a more significant economic collapse is the only hope for any of this getting fixed, and it will be bloody painful for all involved.

[jimhudson]

Thanks for posting this Tom! As a "once upon a time" Frequent Flyer, I too used to actually enjoy the flight experience, even Coach passengers received first class service in most cases! (Well, there was always the Infamous Eastern Shuttle! nuff said!)An occasional upgrade to Fuirst Class was a real treat! I do question your title since the airlines seem to be concentrating on how to raise more revenue and not providing better treatment/service for their passengers! (not to mention the idiotic TSA Security Theater!! )

Jis has summed things up pretty well, and as to Chris' question, I'll vote with my dollars for Amtrak over Any in country Flight since I'm retired and it doesnt matter when I arrive @ my destination, the Longer the Better, as some of we railfans say!

Edited by jimhudson, 02 April 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Devil's Advocate]

1. The report referenced in this thread sounds like it's mainly measuring issues such as delays, cancellations, involuntary deboarding, and receiving your luggage at the end of your trip. Which of those metrics says "entitlement complex" to you?

The entitlement thing comes in with the expectation that air fares will keep going down while services will remain the same. Lower air fares are a result of excessive capacity to some extent and preference of most customers to opt for the lowest possible fares to start with and then of course get surprised when each thing that was previously included in the higher fare is now charged for separately.

So your complaint against coach passengers had nothing to do with this article or the report it was based on?

2. It just so happens that I do want better service with my ex-SAT coach ticket and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it. Please explain exactly how I can vote with my dollars for the superior coach service I enjoyed in years past. Step-by-step if possible. Thanks!

You as an individual can do so by flying first class for some of the better service. However, you as an individual have precious little control when all your fellow travelers opt for the lowest possible fare irrespective of the unintended consequences. So you are pretty much stuck, until the airlines themselves figure out that this is a no win game and tighten inventory enough to have higher load factors and be able to charge higher fares. Apparently that is what has started happening now.

Go back and read my question again. I specifically asked about better coach service. I have no expectation of First Class service. Nor do I have the budget. Never have and probably never will. Nor is there enough room for all 100+ coach passengers to follow your advice and buy up to First Class anyway. So what do I, as an average American coach class customer, do to get the airlines to give me a better coach service?

As to Chris' question, I'll vote with my dollars for Amtrak over Any in country Flight since I'm retired and it doesnt matter when I arrive @ my destination, the Longer the Better, as some of we railfans say!

I'm part of Generation X. We don't have pensions or anything like that. All we have is this silly casino game called a "401k" that sucks up our money and hemorrhages our earnings every time the market goes through a rough period. Sometimes the money comes back and sometimes it doesn't. It's all just one big crap shoot. You diversify and struggle to substantially outperform inflation. You purify and get pummeled by the next downturn. No matter what you do there's no guarantee you'll have anything to show for it when it's all said and done. I guess there's always the lottery, right? If and when I win the lottery I'll remember your advice about voting for Amtrak when I'm retired.

[jis]

1. The report referenced in this thread sounds like it's mainly measuring issues such as delays, cancellations, involuntary deboarding, and receiving your luggage at the end of your trip. Which of those metrics says "entitlement complex" to you?

The entitlement thing comes in with the expectation that air fares will keep going down while services will remain the same. Lower air fares are a result of excessive capacity to some extent and preference of most customers to opt for the lowest possible fares to start with and then of course get surprised when each thing that was previously included in the higher fare is now charged for separately.

So your complaint against coach passengers had nothing to do with this article or the report it was based on?

I profusely apologize for having hurt your sensibilities about being responsive to an article according to your taste. Please feel free to ignore my ramblings if you don't think they are relevant to what you want to know. I do not make any claims whatsoever that my responses will be to your satisfaction.

2. It just so happens that I do want better service with my ex-SAT coach ticket and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it. Please explain exactly how I can vote with my dollars for the superior coach service I enjoyed in years past. Step-by-step if possible. Thanks!

You as an individual can do so by flying first class for some of the better service. However, you as an individual have precious little control when all your fellow travelers opt for the lowest possible fare irrespective of the unintended consequences. So you are pretty much stuck, until the airlines themselves figure out that this is a no win game and tighten inventory enough to have higher load factors and be able to charge higher fares. Apparently that is what has started happening now.

Go back and read my question again. I specifically asked about better coach service. I have no expectation of First Class service. Nor do I have the budget. Never have and probably never will. Nor is there enough room for all 100+ coach passengers to follow your advice and buy up to First Class anyway. So what do I, as an average American coach class customer, do to get the airlines to give me a better coach service?

I thought you were willing to pay a premium. How is one to know which level of premium you are willing to pay. As for traveling in Coach which part of "nothing as an individual" did you not understand? This is specifically true of individuals who fly infrequently. Those who fly frequently enough have some possibilities to consider, but not those that do not do so, except perhaps exploiting slight differences in quality of service between airlines, to their advantage.

[Devil's Advocate]

I profusely apologize for having hurt your sensibilities about being responsive to an article according to your taste. Please feel free to ignore my ramblings if you don't think they are relevant to what you want to know. I do not make any claims whatsoever that my responses will be to your satisfaction.

No hurt feelings over here.

I thought you were willing to pay a premium. How is one to know which level of premium you are willing to pay. As for traveling in Coach which part of "nothing as an individual" did you not understand? This is specifically true of individuals who fly infrequently. Those who fly frequently enough have some possibilities to consider, but not those that do not do so, except perhaps exploiting slight differences in quality of service between airlines, to their advantage.

Hearing folks complain about how coach class passengers are responsible for ruining coach class by not buying First Class tickets makes no sense to me. First Class is not a replacement for coach class. On most flights it's maybe a dozen seats or less up front that probably won't hold even ten percent of the coach cabin. Assuming that half of the First Class cabin is already reserved, there's maybe 1-5% of the coach cabin that will be able to buy-up to First Class at any price. What are the other 95-99% of coach class customers supposed to do? Live with lousy service I guess. I don't see how this is any sort of solution for a pool of hundreds of millions of coach passengers. If there is no workable solution, that can be articulated anyway, then maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach passengers?

[jis]

Hearing folks complain about how coach class passengers are responsible for ruining coach class by not buying First Class tickets makes no sense to me. First Class is not a replacement for coach class. On most flights it's maybe a dozen seats or less up front that probably won't hold even ten percent of the coach cabin. Assuming that half of the First Class cabin is already reserved, there's maybe 1-5% of the coach cabin that will be able to buy-up to First Class at any price. What are the other 95-99% of coach class customers supposed to do? Live with lousy service I guess. I don't see how this is any sort of solution for a pool of hundreds of millions of coach passengers. If there is no workable solution, that can be articulated anyway, then maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach passengers?

I did not say that Coach Class passengers ruined Coach Class by not buying First Class tickets. I have no clue where you got that from. What I said is Coach Class was ruined by Coach Class passengers buying cheaper and cheaper Coach Class tickets while slowly getting less and less for the cheaper fares.

What happened to Coach Class reminds me of the Frog story. A frog put in a pan of cold water which is slowly warmed to boiling will happily sit in the pan and get boiled. OTOH if you throw a from into a bowl of hot water it will promptly jump out. The Coach passengers are at the wrong end of the slowly boiling process IMHO.

You asked whether one could do something to get slightly better service for the payment of a premium and I said one possibility is traveling by First Class. I was making no representation that the premium is worth it or not since that is a function of ones preferences and ones financial means to satisfy said preferences. If you figure out some way to improve Coach Class let us know, since I don't know of any way to do so given the general trend that everyone wants to pay as little as possible to get there no matter what the consequences to comfort. Noticed today that Delta is now offering an absolute no frill low fare where you just barely get a seat to sit on just proving m,y point further

[Devil's Advocate]

I did not say that Coach Class passengers ruined Coach Class by not buying First Class tickets. I have no clue where you got that from. What I said is Coach Class was ruined by Coach Class passengers buying cheaper and cheaper Coach Class tickets while slowly getting less and less for the cheaper fares.

When I asked you point-blank what I, as a coach class passenger, should have done to avoid being blamed for the poor coach service we have today you suggested that I buy a First Class ticket. That wasn't one of several possible options you suggested. That was the one and only suggestion you gave.

You continue to blame coach passengers for not paying enough money on their coach class seats. You never explain how paying more for the exact same seat on the exact same aircraft with the exact same service benefits current or future coach travelers. Nor do you acknowledge how much of a pain it can be to force a given airline's website to sell you a specific fare basis when a cheaper one is still available.

As if it's common knowledge that if coach passengers just insist on handing over more and more of our money for the exact same seats we'll eventually receive better service in return. I don't agree with that premise and so far I've yet to see you explain why (or even how) you think it would work that way or give an example of any other service that has worked that way in a supply-side economy.

What happened to Coach Class reminds me of the Frog story. A frog put in a pan of cold water which is slowly warmed to boiling will happily sit in the pan and get boiled. OTOH if you throw a from into a bowl of hot water it will promptly jump out. The Coach passengers are at the wrong end of the slowly boiling process IMHO.

Yes, I've heard that parable before. So which specific path were the amphibious passengers supposed to jump toward that they carelessly ignored?

Noticed today that Delta is now offering an absolute no frill low fare where you just barely get a seat to sit on just proving my point further

So you see Delta Airlines make a unilateral change to their service and you immediately attribute this change not to the will of Delta revenue management, but to the will of the coach class customer at large. Why? How can anyone reasonably interpret this change as being based on customer demand less than two weeks after being implemented? Over time this change may or may not become a useful data point if and when Delta decides to break out sales of their "E" class fares over a long enough time line to be relevant. For now there is simply not enough data available to make this change work for either perspective.

[jis]

I have no idea what you are talking about, so I will drop off this conversation now and go to other more productive ones.

Edited by jis, 03 April 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Ispolkom]

I'm convinced that a major factor in the eroding quality of U.S. domestic coach travel is the frequent flyer program.

The whole point of frequent flyer programs is to increase brand loyalty. It's not to reward past loyalty, but to encourage future loyalty. Since a major feature of almost all frequent flyer programs is the possibility of free upgrades, the airlines are encouraged to make those upgrades as valuable as possible. They could do this by improving first class service, but it's much easier to just decrease coach service. The result is frequent flyers who are more loyal, since they are desperate for higher status to have a better chance of an upgrade, plus lower costs because the airlines furnish an inferior coach product. That's why you have those silly tiny first class areas on regional jets, for instance.

Look at Southwest, the only airline that doesn't have a first class on any airliner. Is it accidental that their coach service is better than that a nonelite receives on any big US airline?

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm convinced that a major factor in the eroding quality of U.S. domestic coach travel is the frequent flyer program. The whole point of frequent flyer programs is to increase brand loyalty. It's not to reward past loyalty, but to encourage future loyalty. Since a major feature of almost all frequent flyer programs is the possibility of free upgrades, the airlines are encouraged to make those upgrades as valuable as possible. They could do this by improving first class service, but it's much easier to just decrease coach service. The result is frequent flyers who are more loyal, since they are desperate for higher status to have a better chance of an upgrade, plus lower costs because the airlines furnish an inferior coach product. That's why you have those silly tiny first class areas on regional jets, for instance. Look at Southwest, the only airline that doesn't have a first class on any airliner. Is it accidental that their coach service is better than that a nonelite receives on any big US airline?

Well said. I really couldn't agree more.

[Trogdor]

2. It just so happens that I do want better service with my ex-SAT coach ticket and I'm willing to pay a premium to get it. Please explain exactly how I can vote with my dollars for the superior coach service I enjoyed in years past. Step-by-step if possible. Thanks!

I guess it would be helpful to know exactly what "service" you're looking to get with your seat.

More legroom? Buy Economy Plus (or the equivalent on various airlines).

Food? Some airlines offer a buy-on-board service, or you can get better food at the airport, and carry it on.

In-flight entertainment? Some airlines offer it, others are opting for the wi-fi route, figuring most people would rather bring their own stuff on board than use the canned programming they offer.

What other services are you looking for?

You say you are willing to pay a premium, but apparently not enough of a premium to buy a first-class ticket. Don't go on about how there isn't enough space in the first class cabin to accommodate everybody back there in coach, because the fact is that not everybody in coach wants to fly first class (or, more appropriately, not everybody in coach wants to pay what it costs to fly first class).

A few years ago, American Airlines tried a campaign called "More Room Throughout Coach" where they removed several rows of coach seats, figuring that passengers would be willing to pay a bit more for extra legroom. They got their asses handed to them and had to scrap the program, and put the seats back in. Now, most US airlines offer some kind of premium coach service with extra legroom, but it's limited to a portion of the coach cabin, and you have to pay extra for it. If it was in such high demand, they'd obviously expand it.

Up until a couple of years ago, Continental Airlines still served hot food for free on domestic flights. It wasn't all that great, but it was token "food" to serve. It didn't appreciably change any public ridership in Continental's favor, and shortly after the UA merger was announced, they discontinued that service in favor of buy on board.

There used to be an airline called Midwest Express, which offered premium coach service. They were a niche carrier, and their business model worked when fuel prices were low and they could afford to have low density seating on their planes. Guess where that airline is now. There were also a couple of trans-Atlantic carriers that tried something similar, and they didn't last very long either.

I've never flown Virgin America, but my understanding is that they offer service that is better than the typical domestic coach, but their service is limited to a few markets where they can make money (assuming that they are, I don't know for sure).

Ultimately, you are part of a niche market. You don't want "first class" but you want something better than standard coach. Sometimes, airlines can successfully operate in that niche. Sometimes, they can't. If they can, great. If not, then you have to accept the fact that you will have to pay more than you want (first class), or receive less than you want (coach). Individually, there isn't much you can do, because if you had enough money to be able to persuade an airline to offer better service for you, then you'd already have enough to fly first class.

I'm in a similar situation. I much prefer to buy clothing and household goods made in North America (preferably USA or Canada), not necessarily for nationalistic reasons, but because 1) I recognize that someone here is going to be paid a better wage than someone in Sri Lanka or Malaysia or China or wherever, 2) the environmental standards are stronger over here, and 3) it takes less energy to transport something from Denver to Chicago than from China to Oakland, then across the country by rail or truck, likely passing through Denver on the way here anyway. I recognize that it would cost more to get products like that than to get cheap Chinese crap, but it's very difficult even online (and pretty much impossible in stores) to find the type of products I'm looking for manufactured in this hemisphere. I could ask what can an individual shopper like me do to get department stores to stock American-made goods, but I'm probably part of a niche right now that most stores find unprofitable. In the future that may change, as economies throughout the world change. Likewise, airline service may change as the economic realities force more changes in that industry. However, those may not be changes you'll like (no Jeff Smisek reference intended).

[Colonel Klink]

I think another reason why economy class on US airlines sucks so much is that there isn't the kind of competition from rail that there is in other countries. In Europe and Asia you get free drinks and hot meals in intra-continental flights on mainline carriers. Of course, those airlines' core business is inter-continental travel, not intra. Also, they want to provide a consistently high product on both their intra-EU/intra-Asia and transoceanic flights, so they keep up the service. You pay a lot for it though compared to low fare carriers. But unlike in the US, full-service carriers don't try to emulate low-fare carriers by offering awful service and nickeling and diming people to death. They charge considerably higher fares.

I think a big problem in the US is that airlines act as a trust or cartel - they always do things in unison, with few exceptions. There isn't really any measure of competition, especially with all these mergers.

[white rabbitt]

spirit airlines just announced today a new low fare detroit-dallas $ 29.78
starting in june' one flight a day from dallas to detroit and a return
flight from detroit to dallas for the 29.78
how can they not lose money how can amtrak compete with low cost airlines

[Colonel Klink]

spirit airlines just announced today a new low fare detroit-dallas $ 29.78
starting in june' one flight a day from dallas to detroit and a return
flight from detroit to dallas for the 29.78
how can they not lose money how can amtrak compete with low cost airlines

I've heard that Spirit charges people for carry-on luggage. In the UK, low fare airlines charge you a fee to check in for your flight. They also charge you a fee to make a booking with a credit card. As long as you don't book your flight, don't check-in, and don't bring anything with you, you really can get away with a 30$ flight.

Regardless, why would I or anyone else want to go to either Detroit or Dallas for even 0$?

Edited by Colonel Klink, 06 April 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[John Bredin]

Regardless, why would I or anyone else want to go to either Detroit or Dallas for even 0$?

Ooh, these kinds of comments, unless followed by a smiley, tend to NOT go well.

[Colonel Klink]

Regardless, why would I or anyone else want to go to either Detroit or Dallas for even 0$?

Ooh, these kinds of comments, unless followed by a smiley, tend to NOT go well.

Smiley added. It's in jest.

[John Bredin]

Smiley added. It's in jest.

Then my work here is done!