125 replies to this topic

[Devil's Advocate]

However, that being said, I must admit that as a straight person I do not enjoy being hit on by aggressive gay men. I think some folks in the gay community sometimes misconstrue tolerance for something else.

I could say pretty much the same thing about being hit on by aggressive straight women! And I'm sure many straight women would say the same thing about aggressive heterosexual men, who they might not happen to be interested in.

I do not disagree. That being said...

Misconstruing social cues certainly isn't more common in the gay community than elsewhere, and I think many gay men are actually more cautious in that regard than average, because they're aware of the intolerance that still exists in much of American society.

I do not doubt that gay people have probably existed since the beginning of time itself. However, unlike aggressive actions between openly straight individuals we do not have a well established history of social norms between gay suitors and straight targets to fall back on. What we do have is a long history of suspicion, intolerance, and abuse followed by a relatively short period of hypersensitivity. That can be a recipe for trouble if you're not careful. I've seen folks I consider to be perfectly reasonable and tolerant people lose their cool and eventually say something harsh, simply to get an aggressive suitor off their back and out of their personal space, only to be attacked for expressing a hatred they don't actually possess. In some ways it can feel like a trap that some folks have learned to navigate rather deftly in order to bully their way into the business of strangers. Over time I have little doubt that this issue will eventually resolve itself, but until then it can be a bit of a minefield, even for those with open minds and the best of intentions.

[NE933]

I once got physically sick because I watched, ironically, a gay male complain about being discriminated against, only to turn around and be disrespectful to a variety of people, grossly, in outrageous ways.

Yes, I have seen this 'reverse' or 'sideways' format of attacking or shutting out other in gay bars and formal meetings that were intended to address, then minimize, this behavior.

In other words, gay men are routinely harmed by gay men in cliques. In fact, when one picks up a flyer for certain events, the term: "EXCLUSIVELY" - is used and overused so often that I wonder if everyone everywhere were supposed to be so exclusive, especially in a group that has felt the pains of discrimination and abuse, we ought to obliterate holding GLBT events in exclusivity to all else.

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.

[Devil's Advocate]

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.

Tell that to the sleeper snobs.

[NE933]

I do not doubt that gay people have probably existed since the beginning of time itself. However, unlike aggressive actions between openly straight individuals we do not have a well established history of social norms between gay suitors and straight targets to fall back on. What we do have is a long history of suspicion, intolerance, and abuse followed by a relatively short period of hypersensitivity. That can be a recipe for trouble if you're not careful. I've seen folks I consider to be perfectly reasonable and tolerant people lose their cool and eventually say something harsh, simply to get an aggressive suitor off their back and out of their personal space, only to be attacked for expressing a hatred they don't actually possess. In some ways it can feel like a trap that some folks have learned to navigate rather deftly in order to bully their way into the business of strangers. Over time I have little doubt that this issue will eventually resolve itself, but until then it can be a bit of a minefield, even for those with open minds and the best of intentions.

Yes! This is a truth that needed a daring introduction. I would advocate the use of your paragraph, word for word, in any book/publication/lecture dealing with social issues. The reason I state this strongly is that some behaviors of the GLBT community (see my answer to Green Maned Lion, below) worsen the problems for us. We ought to be worthy monitors of our own treasury.

[NE933]

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.

Tell that to the sleeper snobs.

Certainly. As long as I get to tell it to the Coach snobs as well.

[Devil's Advocate]

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.

Tell that to the sleeper snobs.

Certainly. As long as I get to tell it to the Coach snobs as well.

What, exactly, is a "coach snob?"

[NE933]

Which is another reason why I adore Amtrak. Trains force all passengers to ride together, and it is very hard to maintain a 'we are the elite, the rest are just pions' social arrangement.

Tell that to the sleeper snobs.

Certainly. As long as I get to tell it to the Coach snobs as well.

What, exactly, is a "coach snob?"

A semantic device whose counterpoint 'evens' the scales between them (the Coach snob in question with the Sleeper snob). But please, i don't want to earn enemyship with people based on where on the Amtrak train they travel, otherwise we'll have Locomotive snob, Baggage snob, Dorm Car snob, a snob snob, ....

Ya know, it never ends...

[NE933]

I just noticed in mine and several other replies the use of citing quotes, has gone onto so many up-and-backs that we're up to five squares in some points, sort of looks like one of those perpetual mirrors where the receding image gets progressively smaller. How big of the square quotes has A. U. ever reached? If anyone knows, just a little trivia..

[AlanB]

I just noticed in mine and several other replies the use of citing quotes, has gone onto so many up-and-backs that we're up to five squares in some points, sort of looks like one of those perpetual mirrors where the receding image gets progressively smaller. How big of the square quotes has A. U. ever reached? If anyone knows, just a little trivia..

The board stops you at 10 embedded quotes, and we've hit that many times in some topics.

[NE933]

So it's been since March 25th that I opened this loaded topic, and what a conversation it has been! In observance of the gay parades and celebrations that are usually held in June, Amtrak made it's presence known in a news blurb about sponsoring an area of the Washington DC grouup called Green Village. But what reallllllly, really, knocked me off the chair was the resurrection of www.AmtrakRideWithPride.com, featuring a photo of a male couple closely enjoying the passing scenery from a Superliner Sightseer Lounge (originally I thought it was a the lower level of Viewliner bedroom, but we ain't there yet, at the point of showing two men, though in separate beds, occupying a sleeping room).

I'm happy to see our railroading branching out to embrace this, and hope there is a time when all of us can be free of homophobic forces, and other pestilences like racism and sexual discrimination. Whether it's Amtrak, or another railroad, nothing can bridge the gaps like a train can, because it's like the world: we only have one biggie and have to find ways to live together, even if some distance is needed. I'm also very happy that this rail forum, 'Amtrak Unlimited', and Alan its chief administrator as well as the others, and all the members and non-members who were kind or at least resisted the urge to use attack words, I thank you for that.

Finally, I'd like to take that image in Amtrak's advertisement and clear a popular misconception: that is what two gay guys look like riding a train. Kinda boring, eh? Back in 2005 when I was with someone, and we shared a sleeper, anytime the 'flame got higher', the doors closed, curtains withdrawn, and Amtrak flew down the tracks at the normal 90 to 100. When we got up later we greeted everyone in the dining car, including my parents. Now i am solo, hopefully the bounty of happy news can show up not only in the area of more and better trains on tracks but also in the relationship one too. I also hope that the immense power of rail can kick a** on the continuing dismal economy by shining where it does, which is when it builds and sustains civilization, or something close to it. For those of us who watch, record, read about, Amtrak and it's brother and sister trains in other railroads, i wish for us to continue getting joy and harmony, and excitement, to remember and share with are families and friends, in large part by stopping the deterioration of infastructure and the way in which the honor of service, as opposed to servitude, can be upheld by gladly grunting out a hard job done successfully and compensated as such, using the miracle of these machine vehicles that move on track, carrying so much, relying on our eyes, ears, and strength of mind and body. Thank you.

[Tracktwentynine]

Somehow, I missed this topic when it originally ran. I only just saw it this afternoon.

I've never had any trouble when traveling on Amtrak, and have never been treated with anything other than the utmost courtesy. Unfortunately, I've only had the opportunity to take my significant other on one overnight trip, but we've taken day trains several times.

The only real issue I've had was on the Canadian. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election, and in particular the race of one of the Democratic candidates for President. The gentleman from Texas was very vocal about his feelings about that race and where those people should fall on the social ladder.

My significant other is African-American, and I found the conversation very upsetting. I actually left without completing breakfast (in fact it was the only time I left the diner unsatisfied). I think I would have been abhorred by the conversation, even if I hadn't been dating an African-American, but it hurt what this man was saying about my significant other (even though he didn't know my significant other's race, or if I even had one).

One thing that I think heterosexual people take for granted is gender-specific pronouns.

If you haven't noticed yet, I've repeatedly used the phrase "significant other" to describe my, well, significant other. It's the only generic term I can use that does not indicate the gender of the person with who I am coupled. And when it comes to polite conversation, LGBT people often have to result either to these linguistic gymnastics or to lying to avoid "flaunting" their sexuality.

What a lot of straight people don't understand is that gay people "come out" repeatedly throughout their lives, not just once. It's true that LGBT people don't have to come out to everyone. But sometimes they're faced with a difficult choice: reveal their sexuality or lie.

Very early in the thread, someone suggested that no one should just "blurt" out their sexuality. But in a world where heterosexuality is assumed and pronouns are gender specific, it sometimes can't be helped.

Let me give you an example. In this case it didn't happen on a train, but it easily could have. I was traveling to Phoenix on an airplane that stopped in Birmingham on the way. An older lady boarded and sat next to me for the four hour flight to Arizona. She was a talker, which is not a bad thing. Since I was traveling alone, she assumed I was single. She basically tried to set me up with her granddaughter.

At this point, I could have said, "I'm actually dating someone." But that would have likely inspired her to ask me about my girlfriend. And if she did that, I could either lie or tell her that I was gay. I don't mean to be rude to southerners (I'm from Georgia, myself), but this lady got on the plane in Alabama, which is not known for being very progressive. If I told her I was gay, she might react badly, and we were still over Arkansas. It could be a long flight if she were to be hostile.

So I elected to basically ignore the comment. "Yes, she sounds like a lovely girl. How long have you lived in Birmingham?"

When we have to share the same train for hundreds or thousands of miles, it can be especially stressful to "come out" to a seatmate or dinner companion. Many people regard any mention of sexuality as "flaunting". I'm not talking about making out, just the mere mention of a significant other using a same-gender gender-specific pronoun.

I am deeply in love with my boyfriend. We've been together for almost 5 years. I want to be able to be treated like a normal couple in public spaces. Heterosexual couples hold hands on the train. They might share a light kiss on the cheek. When alone they talk about each other or about their families. But my boyfriend and I generally don't do that, largely because we don't want to have to worry about what other people might have to say about it. And so, while we don't lie to people, if someone assumes we're just friends traveling together, we generally don't try to relieve them of that impression.

I want to be honest and open with people. I even want to assume the best of people, but it can be difficult to take the risk. And that's what people like me face when we make pleasant conversation on the train.

But as I've said, I have yet to receive a bad experience on Amtrak. Let's hope it stays that way for a long time to come.

[brandon02852]

I dont work for AMTRAK, but I ride frequently as a T&R guide... and I'm "Family" too. Now I am not going to out anyone, but I know several AMTRAK employees who are part of the family. Are you a member of PSS?

Why are you afraid of outright saying you are gay? You are hiding behind the word "family" which completely goes against the title and meaning of this thread.

I don't care if you are gay, and nobody that is decent in this world should think of you as inferior for being gay.

[Ispolkom]

The only real issue I've had was on the Canadian. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election,

And this is why I refuse to discuss politics or religion with strangers, and never ask personal questions.

Of course, this is easy for me, because being from the midwest, I can happily discuss the weather for hours. Seriously. Comparing to past years, famous storms, weather patterns in the late Permian age, etc., etc.

[Donctor]

The only real issue I've had was on the Canadian. I was traveling with a friend who also likes train travel. At breakfast on the morning of the third day, we were seated with a couple from Texas. Because this was the summer of 2008, the conversation turned to the upcoming American election,

And this is why I refuse to discuss politics or religion with strangers, and never ask personal questions.

Of course, this is easy for me, because being from the midwest, I can happily discuss the weather for hours. Seriously. Comparing to past years, famous storms, weather patterns in the late Permian age, etc., etc.

Can't that lead to a discussion of global warming?

[ScottC4746]

Also family checking in here.

And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.

{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?

[roomette]

{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?

I'd mock that but I don't even know what that means.

[johnny.menhennet]

Also family checking in here.

And I agree that it is an appropriate discussion for the forum. As my husband and I travel in a bedroom and the car attendant wants to prep both beds, but we have to correct them and tell them to only prep the lower bed. Thankfully, I've only ever had polite and courteous responses from on board staff. I don't "blurt out" that I'm gay, but I make no effort to hide my husband or his relationship to me. If it makes you uncomfortable that I steal some of the home-fries off of his plate at breakfast then go find another table, it's not my problem.

{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?

?

[TraneMan]

{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?

I'd mock that but I don't even know what that means.

I think what he means is that he may of thought he was the only gay passenger, and wasn't out about it. (in the closet)

[ScottC4746]

{Peering in from behind the closet door} So I am not the only passanger then?

I'd mock that but I don't even know what that means.

I think what he means is that he may of thought he was the only gay passenger, and wasn't out about it. (in the closet)

Bingo!

[NE933]

Oh, Scott, hell no!! I used to think that also, but have things changed!

Gays, bis, straights, are not just words, but people, and like people, are everywhere. Gay men drive and operate trains, clean and build them, print out and design their schedules, all sorts of things. Obviously, from reading the previous postings, it is controversial and in some cases, misunderstood. But I'd like to think that things are getting better, albeit slowly, so that if I one day get a boyfriend or companion and decide to hold his hand on Amtrak, or anywhere else, we won't be attacked with words, fists, sneering looks, etc.

So, welcome to the world outside the closet! Enjoy the many wonderful things you'll like, and learn from the not so nice things. If I may part some words of wisdom: please treat your fellow gay or lesbian people, in fact all people, with kindness, unless they intend to cause you harm. We all talk of homophobia as if it is strictly something that straight/hetero people do, but you'd be surprised how much exclusion and hurt comes from within.

It was hard for my parents to deal with, though they never threatened me or shut me out of the house; unfortunately this happens alot. But when I was still with my previous companion, now my ex, and all four of us took Amtrak to Florida, Pennsylvania, and did many other things, and they saw how happy we were, it made the pill alot easier to swallow. Seeing their son with another human, whether male or female, and if we brought happiness, support, and smile, that's all that mattered. I think this is a page in history in which many observers will find quiet acceptance when they see us function in life. And, like yourself, it shall tear down the walls of fear for others needing to come out of the closet. All the best, and enjoy Amtrak!