39 replies to this topic

[Hanno]

According to this article a man falls from a train on his way to Chicago. The article does not say but I assume it was the Empire Builder. IIRC there was another case about a year or so ago where someone fell from the AutoTrain. To the best of my recollection that case was never solved. This may end up the same way.

How does a person just fall from a Superliner?

[the_traveler]

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

[Hanno]

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

You mean like opening the door on purpose as in suicide?

[Devil's Advocate]

Opens the entry door? There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

[Eric S]

Opens the entry door?

There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

You mean like opening the door on purpose as in suicide?

On purpose, whether as a suicide attempt or for fun or to take a picture or whatever.

[the_traveler]

Or opening the door "just to look out from a moving train" or "to get a better photo" - and then slipping or falling after the train hits a bump in the track! Even some Conductors or other crew have fallen of a train via the open door - and I doubt that it was a suicide!

[the_traveler]

Opens the entry door? There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open? And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

When I'm on the upper level and the train stops at a station, I do not know if the door in my car is open unless I see people getting off from my car!

[buck1108]

Opens the entry door? There are no locks on them! That's why the reminders are made to "not open the doors or windows"!

So how did this man manage to close the door or window while "falling" from the train? Or is it your opinion that the door or window simply remained wide open without arousing anyone's suspicion? I'm just curious what you think happened since it's not obvious to me what you're actually trying to say.

That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars?
If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own?
Maybe "the conductor did it".
Maybe a case for Poirot.

Edited by buck1108, 21 March 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Devil's Advocate]

Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open?

Well, you'd have the wind and the noise of a train at speed for one thing. I'm also guessing the door would be banging against the car over time.

And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

I suppose you'd ask the people on the bottom level or near the stairs if they had seen or heard anything and for how long.

That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars? If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own? Maybe "the conductor did it". Maybe a case for Poirot.

I don't think you can fall between the cars without cutting through the accordion covering, which would presumably be rather obvious due to a sudden increase in noise and wind. Even if it wasn't it would easy to spot when the next person when through and saw a gaping hole large enough to fit a body through. Assuming the train was operating on or near the intended schedule it's not like you're going to get a great action shot for your camera between two and three in the morning by hanging out of the doorway as was previously theorized. I actually think that foul play probably makes the most sense so far. I honestly can't come up with any other explanation with the information we have thus far. I wonder if this death is related to the other nighttime "falling" death on the EB last year in Montana.

Edited by Texas Sunset, 21 March 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[buck1108]

Unless somebody happens to go to the lower level to say go to the rest room or get something from the luggage rack, how would know the door or window was open?

Well, you'd have the wind and the noise of a train at speed for one thing. I'm also guessing the door would be banging against the car over time.

And even if you did happen to go down and find the door or window open, how would you know if if just happened, it happened 50 miles ago or 100 miles ago?

I suppose you'd ask the people on the bottom level or near the stairs if they had seen or heard anything and for how long.

That's a good point. Setting aside foul play (and why should we?) I wonder if a person could slip out between cars? If a door or window is open, what is the likelihood that it will close on its own? Maybe "the conductor did it". Maybe a case for Poirot.

I don't think you can fall between the cars without cutting through the accordion covering, which would presumably be rather obvious due to a sudden increase in noise and wind. Even if it wasn't it would easy to spot when the next person when through and saw a gaping hole large enough to fit a body through. Assuming the train was operating on or near the intended schedule it's not like you're going to get a great action shot for your camera between two and three in the morning by hanging out of the doorway as was previously theorized. I actually think that foul play probably makes the most sense so far. I honestly can't come up with any other explanation with the information we have thus far. I wonder if this death is related to the other nighttime "falling" death on the EB last year in Montana.

I hear you on both points - the truth can be inconvenient and sometimes wacky. Maybe he was assisted in a 'dare' sort of jump, or maybe that's how the lounge car attendant rids the car of 'holdovers' past closing hours? j/k Bertha's a big gal!

[john h]

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

[me_little_me]

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

Actually, could be he was trying to take a prohibited smoke break. Also could be that as he was falling, he tried to grab the door but couldn't hold on but managed to accidentally close it.

Ah! The little brain cells are working!

/s/ Hercule

Edited by me_little_me, 21 March 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Bill Haithcoat]

My sister discovered a somewhat different way to fall from a train. This was way preAmtrak, mid 50s.

She was on Southern Railroad's "Pelican" traveling from Chattanooga to Tuscaloosa.She was headed back to the diner while stopped in Birmingham, not realizing the diner was removed in Birmingham.

They had failed to put up a sign or a flag or lock the door or whatever they were supposed to do to warn a passenger that a space between cars was about to open up.

She fell right through! She was not hurt. We should have sued though for some reason we did not.

[benjibear]

maybe he was trying to take a smoke break

Or maybe he was just trying to find the bathroom!

[The Davy Crockett]

Not long ago I was in a roomette and an elderly gentleman, who had serious dementia, kept wandering the hall. He was with a family, but they didn't keep a close eye on him. He'd be off looking for the bathroom. (This was in a Viewliner, mind you) Then he was trying to find his own room or his people. I helped him back to his roomette a number of times, once at something like 4:30 in the AM.

So the guy who 'left the train' COULD have been looking for the toilet, if he was anything like the guy in my sleeper.

[afigg]

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive.

One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door.

I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

[Swadian Hardcore]

Maybe he fell out of the train but only opened the door partway and it slipped back into place, or close enough for people not to realize.

[The Chief]

The lever-latches on vestibule passenger car doors are the best around and have been in widespread use for scores of years.

That Empire Builder was exactly an hour late leaving Fargo at 03:13 Monday 19 March. Victim fell off the train 20 miles later, which would be about 03:30. That's flat country and (pretty) straight track, speed limit probably 70. So really quickly after he boarded, he disembarked.

Foulplay? Disoriented? Unfamiliar? I dunno. Obit notes victim Jared Nilles, 27, was a college grad, a writer, performer and athlete. He was a Fargo native and attended school -- and worked some projects -- in Minneapolis, so I'm betting he had ridden the Builder before.

And here's the link to our thread on falling-off Auto Train fatality Mrs. Arteta.

People fall off trains, but not very often. We can't succumb to the over-do-safety reactionary consciousness of fear that seems to grip some citizens in this nation whenever something "disastrous" or tragic happens.

And kudos to that freight conductor who had pretty good eyes to spy a body on the right-of-way in the pre-sunrise twilight at 07:00. He must eat a lot of carrots.

[Devil's Advocate]

All this talk about "accidentally closing" the door makes no sense to me. Have any of you ever closed the lower level exterior doors on a Superliner? It's not something you could easily do while falling to your death. Here are some other considerations.


* The "Dare Gone Wrong"

With a dare there would presumably be witnesses to see the dare performed, along with a reactionary commotion and/or emotional aftereffects that would have made the event even more obvious. Doesn't quite pan out.


* The "Smoke Break"

If it was a smoke break why not just open the window and hold the cigarette outside? Why bother to open the door at all? If the door wasn't open then how did he fall out? Also, how many smokers can't even make it a half hour after having just boarded. Doesn't pan out at all.


* The "Bathroom Fall"

There is absolutely nothing in common between the bathroom door and the exit door. They don't look the same, open the same, or share much of anything else in common. Nor is there any evidence that this passenger would be that confused. Even if he was that confused how did he avoid attracting any attention or leaving the door open?

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive. One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door. I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

You're joking, right?

[afigg]

If he fell from opening the passenger door on a moving train, this would be similar to what happened to the woman who fell from the AutoTrain. If this happens this frequently, perhaps there needs to be a safety design improvement on the Superliners. Manual locking of each door would be too cumbersome to implement. A retrofit of a central control lock system for all doors could be expensive. One self-contained solution could be to hook up an accelerometer detector circuit and have the door automatically lock at speeds above 10 mph. Of course, there would need to be an override for safety in case of emergencies in case the accelerometer lock mechanism jams or fails, but the override can be a several step lever turning process that prevents anyone from accidentally opening the door. I'll have to check the Next Generation bi-level car specification to see if it says anything about door opening safety requirements.

You're joking, right?

Not at all. If there have been multiple fatalities from people apparently unintentionally opening the exit door at night, that indicates that there is a safety design flaw. The question is how difficult is it to open a Superliner I or II door when the train is in motion, if you don't know what you are doing?

I looked at the Next Generation Bi-level car specification and Section 8 covers the door systems. The side doors are to be electrically controlled from either a local door control panel or via a trainline command signal from elsewhere on the train. There is wording in it on safety specifications for the 4 side doors such as position sensors to detect that the door is fully closed, zero-speed protection from a wheel slide control unit on each car to deactivate the door control panel system if not at zero-speed, door CLOSE command automatically issued when car motion is detected, and so on. Question is how much of these features are present in the current Superliners?