22 replies to this topic

[dn4192]

How does Amtrak decide what location it makes stops at? I can understand the big cities and such but how about the podunk little towns, who makes that call?

[yarrow]

i believe i have read that some of the small towns (maybe bingen, wa on the portland section of the eb) were mandated years ago (long before amtrak)as a condition of trackage rights through an area. also, a lot of the little town stops were once division points in the days of steam and i think it is hard to abandon a stop even though it might not be needed in the age of diesel.

[benjibear]

I think it has to do with mostly economics. Look at the Keystone line for example. The Pennsylvania/Keystone always stops at Lancaster, Elizabethtown, and Harrisburg. Mount Joy and Middletown only have stops on select Keystone trains. Harrisburg and Lancaster are full stations with ticket agents and high level platforms. E-town was just renovated and has high level platforms.

There is talk about a new station in Middletown at the Harrisburg airport and make it a intermodal type station. That may get all the trains to stop with connections by plane, bus, and rental cars. There has also been talk about a station in Paradise.

[George Harris]

Depends upon the numbers boarding / deboarding. Political clout of the area can also skew this. For example: Cairo IL was dropped as a stop on teh CONO, probably due to declining patronage. The populaton of the area is declining, which also normally means that the average age of the population is going up, and commonly teh elderly travel less. Facilities can make a difference. On the same route, Dyersburg was a stop even for the CONO when it was the top ICRR train making teh end to end in 16.5 hours and there were three other trains through there in each direction, and that is not counting the all Pullman Panama Limited. It has been dropped in favor of Newbern, a few miles to the north, which 50 years ago was a don't blink or you will miss it town.

[the_traveler]

Also, there is always politics!

Congressperson: "I will not support Amtrak's budget unless the train stops in my district!" So it stops in Podunkville!

[jis]

Also, there is always politics!

Congressperson: "I will not support Amtrak's budget unless the train stops in my district!" So it stops in Podunkville!

Example?

[afigg]

I think it has to do with mostly economics. Look at the Keystone line for example. The Pennsylvania/Keystone always stops at Lancaster, Elizabethtown, and Harrisburg. Mount Joy and Middletown only have stops on select Keystone trains. Harrisburg and Lancaster are full stations with ticket agents and high level platforms. E-town was just renovated and has high level platforms.

There is talk about a new station in Middletown at the Harrisburg airport and make it a intermodal type station. That may get all the trains to stop with connections by plane, bus, and rental cars. There has also been talk about a station in Paradise.

There is a station on Middletown which most Keystones stop at except for several Mon-Fri express type runs. The new station won't be very far from the current station, but will be located close enough to the airport parking area that I gather the plan might be to have the buses that run to the parking lot swing by the station. A schedule change to have all the Keystones stop at Middletown would not be a major change. The plan is, BTW, to upgrade all the eastern Keystone stations to high level platforms to reduce dwell time at each station.

As for deciding where the train stops, that question really should be broken down by LD, NEC, and state supported corridor trains. The LD trains generally stop where the stations were or used to be before Amtrak came into existence. The NEC is all legacy stations which get served by a mix of Acela Express and NE Regional trains stopping at some stations and not others. The states will end up having a lot of say in where the state supported corridor trains, once they are all fully supported by state subsidies, stop. Politics, population size, distance between stations, schedule, and legacy station stops all enter into the decision matrix of where the trains stops.

[RampWidget]

Also, there is always politics!

Congressperson: "I will not support Amtrak's budget unless the train stops in my district!" So it stops in Podunkville!

Example?

How 'bout an entire train as an example? Anyone remember Amtrak's Hilltopper? (for Robert Byrd) Or the Gulf Breeze? (for Trent Lott) - IMO, of course.

As far as station stops, afigg & benjibear are on target. As another example, look at the Crescent through Georgia. Only towns of any size pre-Amtrak on that route in Ga. other than Atlanta's suburban fringe were Toccoa & Gainesville. Now, there are several other towns that might have sufficient ridership (that don't cannibalize existing station ridership) but establishing a new stop requires, among other things, an agreement with the host RR (NS in this case) and those agreements are not easy to achieve.

[amtkstn]

A lot of small town stations serve bigger cities

[TML]

I think Amtrak will serve any municipality along its established routes if (1) that municipality is able to provide a station with satisfactory conditions and (2) there is sufficient ridership. In recent years, station stops that have been discontinued along existing routes (excluding discontinued trains and/or segments) have been discontinued because of a combination of (1) low ridership and (2) poor station conditions.

Take, for example, Hamilton, Ohio. This station used to be served by the Cardinal on a regular basis. However, in 2004, due to low ridership, it was reduced to a flag stop. Amtrak then abandoned this station altogether a year later because it felt that the station conditions were not satisfactory enough to justify stopping there.

[jis]

Also, there is always politics!

Congressperson: "I will not support Amtrak's budget unless the train stops in my district!" So it stops in Podunkville!

Example?

How 'bout an entire train as an example? Anyone remember Amtrak's Hilltopper? (for Robert Byrd) Or the Gulf Breeze? (for Trent Lott) - IMO, of course.

How about some current examples. Hilltopper is a phenomenon from one generation back.

Besides currently the Congress's position simply is "we'll reduce your funding 10% each year and we don't care where you stop or not" anyway.

[the_traveler]

How about Mystic, CT?

• The stop is served by (IIRC) 2 or 3 trains a day (on the busy NEC)
• The "station" is the town information center
• I don't even think it has a QT and no shelter when the center is closed
• There is an Amshack - on the northbound side - southbound, there is none
• NLC - where almost all trains stop - is less then 6 miles away

Another is Deming, NM. Why?

[cirdan]

Some other points that might have some influence:

- Amtrak stops because a station exists. That station represents a certain value which would be abandoned if that stop ceased.
- Establishing a new station at a different location is going to cost money to acquire land and build and would require studies to prove the new location is better. There would have to be a very strong case before that can even be considered.
- Amtrak cannot stop where it wants because there may be capacity issues with the host railroads.
- LD trains do need to stop periodically for such purposes as crew changes, refuelling or restocking. This may explain some of the stops that appear to be the middle of nowhere.
- Just because there doesn't appear to be a city immediately next to the Amtrak station, doesn't mean people don't use it. People may drive there and there might be connecting buses.
- If there is an overlay with a commuter service (as in Florida for example), Amtrak may want to share some of those facilities for the purposes of connections and also to share costs.

[JayPea]

Part of the answer, I believe, is that when Amtrak took over passenger operations, it simply decided to retain the stops its predecessors had when they ran passenger service.

[jis]

So are we to believe that some Congressman from New Mexico said that they would vote against Amtrak if the Deming station was closed? Or was it the case that Connecticut Congressional delegation would oppose Amtrak funding if Mystic was closed?

I am always somewhat surprised whenever I see so called railfans and rail advocates who apparently try to come up arguments to get rid of stations that exist and serve at least some number of passengers, specially when the station itself is maintained by someone else, or adds only marginally to the overall cost of operations. Why would it be better to have fewer stations causing people to have to drive further on more crowded roads to get to another station, clearly raising a barrier higher for them to get on trains?

I could possibly come up with very cogent arguments for getting rid of as many as a quarter of Amtrak's existing stations? But in the broader scheme of things, why would that make sense?

Edited by jis, 08 March 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[cirdan]

So are we to believe that some Congressman from New Mexico said that they would vote against Amtrak if the Deming station was closed? Or was it the case that Connecticut Congressional delegation would oppose Amtrak funding if Mystic was closed?

I am always somewhat surprised whenever I see so called railfans and rail advocates who apparently try to come up arguments to get rid of stations that exist and serve at least some number of passengers, specially when the station itself is maintained by someone else, or adds only marginally to the overall cost of operations. Why would it be better to have fewer stations causing people to have to drive further on more crowded roads to get to another station, clearly raising a barrier higher for them to get on trains?

I could possibly come up with very cogent arguments for getting rid of as many as a quarter of Amtrak's existing stations? But in the broader scheme of things, why would that make sense?

Absolutely.

Except maybe on some corridor services, shaving some minutes off a journey time are not going to have a noticeable impact in terms of cost savings or additional ridership. But even if its just several hundred passengers a year who are joining the train there, those are additional customers served and income for Amtrak. Remember that every satisfied passenger is a potential ambassador who may encourage more people to use Amtrak in future. Amtrak has broken through its critical downwards spiral and is growing ist passenger base, albeit slowly. Now is not the time to stop that snowball from rolling.

[afigg]

How about Mystic, CT?

• The stop is served by (IIRC) 2 or 3 trains a day (on the busy NEC)
• The "station" is the town information center
• I don't even think it has a QT and no shelter when the center is closed
• There is an Amshack - on the northbound side - southbound, there is none
• NLC - where almost all trains stop - is less then 6 miles away

Mystic CT has a Quik-Trak machine and had 23,091 passengers in FY2011. Up from 20,787 in FY10, by the way. If Amtrak did not stop there, some of those customers would get on or off in New London or Westerly RI instead, but some probably would choose other forms of transportation - and Amtrak would lose the business. The Shore Line East service does not extend east of New London, so Amtrak is the only train service Mystic gets.

Checking the wikipedia entry on the Mystic train station, the station was built in 1905 so it does not quite qualify as an Amshack building. The station has low level platforms which is a drawback. It could well be the last Amtrak stop on the NYP-BOS NEC to have low level platforms, but it could get upgraded with short high level platforms eventually.

I don't see what is the problem with having a few daily NE Regionals stop at Mystic CT.

[MikefromCrete]

Mystic is also a tourist destination. Someone visiting Mystic wouldn't ride Amtrak if the nearest station was six miles away.

[jis]

In a very timely fashion a specific case comes up to use as an example to discuss this issue....

Liberty University in Lynchburg VA wants to fund, build and lease to Amtrak, a station on its campus. See this article at wdbj7.com.

Now there are a few issues with the proposal. One is that the location is south of the junction where the line to Roanoke takes off, so this station if built, will not be able to be served by trains going to Roanoke, without a backup move. Since it is south of the Kemper Street station, it will probably need additional sidings for train storage.

OTOH, the construction is fully paid for by LU. Amtrak just leases the facility and operates it. No further permits from anyone else other than Amtrak and NS is needed to make this happen and in rather quick order.

Note that it is just several miles from Kemper St. Station, so theoretically one could start a jitney service of some sort from LU to Kemper St. and perhaps capture some of the potential ridership. Also note that this is Liberty University of Jerry Falwell Sr. from a demographic that many in this forum believe almost as a matter of knee-jerk to be anti-rail!

So should Amtrak turn up its nose and walk away from this offer? What do y'all think?