51 replies to this topic

[rrdude]

Well, at least SWA won't cry too loud, as it looks like they don't serve Shreveport.

But a "Casino-Only" train? Ain't gonna happen, unless casino's/state pay the bulk. And the history in AC is awful.

A Reno-Style "Fun Train" might make sense, but that's not Amtrak's market.

[Devil's Advocate]

It's a 3 hour drive from DFW to Bossier. It is very popular to go for the day or a quick overnight trip. I've even taken Amtrak and their bus connection. There are also some bus services that cater to gamblers. As much as I like riding the train, the bus is just too much of a pain. If I were to go back, it would be in a car unless this line opens. I definitely wouldn't drive much more than 3 hrs to get there which is probably why it's just a DFW/east TX thing. But the casinos are pretty decent and they are full service casinos unlike the closer casinos in OK that I've seen.

Ah, I see.

Incidentally, a friend and I bucked the Vegas thing and went for a casino trip to Lake Charles one weekend. It was a long drive from here with not much to see. Had to take a car because the train is much slower, has terrible hours, and only travels once every few days. Ended up taking much longer than a flight to Vegas without much of a payoff. With today's $4 gas prices only the most efficient vehicles on the road won't be feeling the pinch. It's amazing to think that as recently as 1998 gasoline was only $0.89 per gallon down here. In the end Lake Charles had one good casino and a few crappy and/or closed ones. It was fun enough for a first visit but probably not worth another car trip.

There are some bus companies that make that trip so you don't have to do the driving, but I think you have to buy a package deal with specific terms and dates to get the free bus ride and I'm not a big fan of buses anyway. They'd have to make it nicer than any of the buses I've ridden to make it feel like a good value. Lake Charles looks nice in some parts but it must be pretty polluted after seeing all the industrial exploitation going on in nearby areas. We also tried that Kickapoo Lucky Eagle thing down south on another trip. You know, the one down a dirt road in the middle of nowhere. I think I'd rather do Macau (some 8,300 miles away) before going back to the Lucky Eagle. But maybe some folks do actually prefer half arsed quasi-legal joints like all the billboards keep telling us. In the end it's just quicker, easier, and more enjoyable to do Vegas. Or Reno, for that matter. And you can reach Reno by train last I heard!

Well, at least SWA won't cry too loud, as it looks like they don't serve Shreveport.

Maybe they think that by aiming low they can finally get one past the goalies (airlines, road builders, bus companies, toll administrators, etc.) that have helped kill virtually every major attempt to increase passenger rail in the Southwest.

Edited by Texas Sunset, 02 March 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[jis]

So if this proposed train is mainly going to cater to leisure traffic, as opposed to a real corridor-style business traffic, it might be worth it to persuade the casinos in Shreveport to chip in for the train service, something like how the Atlantic City Express Service (ACES train) runs from New York to Atlantic City.

Most like - used to run, since we have not yet heard of the contract being renewed.... the contract ran out at the end of 2011.

[afigg]

By the way, where would this train run vs. the planned alignment for the Crescent Star? I ask because if this train were successful, using a batch of cut-off cars at Bossier/Shreveport and using the casino run as a funding mechanism to connect the Crescent to Dallas would be viable. If you needed to, with this you could even run the through cars as Viewliners, use bilevels for the casino cut-offs, and take a page from Santa Fe and keep the two crowds apart and on separately-numbered trains.

When you get down to it, as far as I am concerned the presence of the casino(s) and their attached ridership market(s) simply serves as a mechanism with which to fund a passenger rail service and potentially create a market for other services. It is nothing more and nothing less; it could be an amusement park, a popular beach, or an airport and it would mean the exact same thing to me.

I think Amtrak and the supporters of a corridor service over this route would be wise to avoid a dedicated "casino" train. If they can get political and a little financial support from the casinos, fine. But a "casino" train might turn off as many customers as it gets and ties the service to the whims of the management of the casinos providing direct funding for the train. New management comes in, decides they can get a bigger cut of revenue with bus charter services and drops funding for the train. Besides a "casino" train would mark it as more of a novelty service for a certain group of customers and potentially turn off business and other leisure travelers who are not interested in going to the casinos.

As for the Crescent Star idea, boy, is that getting way ahead of the game. The first goal should be to get a new corridor service started. The Texas Eagle would benefit from track, trip time, and any station improvements from Fort Worth to Marshall TX and also see increased ridership from a bigger customer base on the segment. The TE is doing very well right now with a 13.7% increase in the ridership in the first 3 months of the fiscal year, easily the best of the LD trains. Keeps up, the TE may become one of Amtrak's top performing LD trains. The increased ridership and revenue for the TE may help with gaining political support for the Shreveport corridor service idea.

Back to the Crescent Star proposal, I believe it would have used what are now Kansas City Southern tracks from Meridian MS to Shreveport. Don't know if the plan was to run over UP or KCS tracks to Dallas. A corridor service to Shreveport would cover the cost of the station and the Marshall TX to Shreveport section. But there would still be the issue of the Meridian to Shreveport segment. Besides any major expansion or split of the Crescent is obviously not in the cards any time soon.

Looking at the UP and KCS system maps, if the FTW-Shreveport corridor service does come into existence, it looks like it could possibly be extended to Baton Rouge and New Orleans over KCS. Whether there would be any political support in LA for it, don't know, but wonder if a New Orleans to Shreveport to Dallas/FTW day corridor train would get enough business.

[fairviewroad]

So, where would the train stop in Shreveport?

One of the old stations burned to the ground years ago:

http://www.abandoned...t_Union_Station

Another currently lives on as a gay bar:

http://www.flickr.co...@N00/378671131/

[john h]

So, where would the train stop in Shreveport?

One of the old stations burned to the ground years ago:

http://www.abandoned...t_Union_Station

Another currently lives on as a gay bar:

http://www.flickr.co...@N00/378671131/

I vote rebuild the one that was burned down

oh and here is another article
http://www.nbcdfw.co...ewsletter-Daily

[Gratt]

There is one question that is lingering in my mind. How many people take the current service?


Current Amtrak service from SHR-DAL takes a little less than 4 1/2 hours. An hour and 15 min of which is a bus bridge from LVW-SHR.

On average, how many passengers are their that only travel between FTW and SHR every day?

If we are talking about 25 a day with maybe 6-5 going to/from SHR then this sounds like a waste of time.

If it is a lot more than that, that in itself would show better service would result in more passengers.

Does anyone have that kind information?

[Texan Eagle]

There is one question that is lingering in my mind. How many people take the current service?


Current Amtrak service from SHR-DAL takes a little less than 4 1/2 hours. An hour and 15 min of which is a bus bridge from LVW-SHR.

On average, how many passengers are their that only travel between FTW and SHR every day?

If we are talking about 25 a day with maybe 6-5 going to/from SHR then this sounds like a waste of time.

If it is a lot more than that, that in itself would show better service would result in more passengers.

This, I am afraid, is not an accurate metric to gauge future ridership. Firstly, the existing Shreveport-Dallas thing is not even a train, it is a bus+train bridge. Amtrak lovers and railfans know this but for a majority of the population, this option would not even be on their radar. It is very unlikely that residents of a town that sees no passenger train would even go to Amtrak.com to see if there is an option to go to Dallas. Secondly, the existing link not only involves a transfer but is also time-consuming, unreliable (TE is not really the best among Amtrak trains when it comes to staying on time) and inadequate (since it is just once a day). To get an idea of how much patronage a Shreveport-Dallas corridor service would get, it is required to consider statistics of passengers traveling between the two cities (and also points on the route) using other means such as driving and Greyhound too because, if given an option of a 3-3.5 hour direct journey from Shreveport into downtown Dallas, quite a few self-driving and bus-taking passengers are likely to migrate to the train.

[jphjaxfl]

What happened to the T&P Station in Shreveport? It was closer to downtown than Union or Central. MP /T&P moved their trains out to a small station in a rail yard near the Airport. There were still 4 daily trains between Marshall-Shreveport-New Orleans in 1967 plus 4 KCS trains from Kansas city - Shreveport - New Orleans plus Shreveport - Port Arthur.

[afigg]

This, I am afraid, is not an accurate metric to gauge future ridership. Firstly, the existing Shreveport-Dallas thing is not even a train, it is a bus+train bridge. Amtrak lovers and railfans know this but for a majority of the population, this option would not even be on their radar. It is very unlikely that residents of a town that sees no passenger train would even go to Amtrak.com to see if there is an option to go to Dallas. Secondly, the existing link not only involves a transfer but is also time-consuming, unreliable (TE is not really the best among Amtrak trains when it comes to staying on time) and inadequate (since it is just once a day). To get an idea of how much patronage a Shreveport-Dallas corridor service would get, it is required to consider statistics of passengers traveling between the two cities (and also points on the route) using other means such as driving and Greyhound too because, if given an option of a 3-3.5 hour direct journey from Shreveport into downtown Dallas, quite a few self-driving and bus-taking passengers are likely to migrate to the train.

Agreed. Part of any study such as this will be to get data on number of people driving from Dallas and Fort Worth to/from Shreveport and towns in between, traffic conditions & driving time, number of air flights, bus trips and passengers, reasons for taking the trip (business, gambling, personal travel). Then model (ok, guess estimate) how much business the train will get depending on projected trip times and possible station locations in Shreveport.

The Texas Eagle provides a starting point. But it is an LD train which also is seriously slow from Dallas to Fort Worth with LD train padding a factor. Not very fast from Marshall to Dallas either looking at the schedule. If the corridor train can use the TRE between FTW and Dallas, and make some modest cost improvements for better trip times from Dallas to Shreveport, maybe it can get close to competing with the automobile and bus in trip times. Which, experience shows in other corridors is enough to make for a successful corridor service.

As for station(s) in Shreveport & Bossier city, the options will be part of the study. Would Shreveport have plans to build an intermodal station, if they don't have one now? Can an old station be restored? Or would an Amshack and platform throw up along the UP tracks do? The bigger the plans are for a station, the longer they will take to debate and get anything started. Recent history tells us that even for a successful restoration of corridor service, got to spend a decade or more studying and planning it almost to death first. Not going to happen quickly.

[henryj]

This again is another boondoggle and waste of money on the part of Texdot. Shreveport population = 218k, metro = 500k. Houston population = 2 million, metro almost 6 million. Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service. First they wasted a bunch of money studying Houston to Austin with a meandering route through Hearne that would take 5-6 hours vs Greyounds 3 hours. The direct route was abandoned by the SP in the 1960's and Hwy 290 built on part of the ROW. Now this Shreveport thing. Strangely, SWA doesn't fly to Shreveport. lol. Greyhound runs at least 6 departures a day to Shreveport on a 3-4 hour schedule. American Airlines flys there several times a day. It's all just a smoke screen to hide from the real issue, and that is direct rail service between DFW and Houston on a four hour schedule. That would complete the so called 'Texas Triangle' of DFW/SAS/HOU/DFW. This is the basic route structure for passenger rail in Texas. Other destinations should be service by bus feeder lines, both highway and local metro. If we are to the point of starting up rail service between Dallas and Shreveport or adding the so called Crescent Star then the rest of the country must have the best rail service in the world. Before I did a 'Star' I would think about Texas to Colorado or bringing back the Lone Star or making the Sunset Limited daily or restoring SL service to Florida.

[Texan Eagle]

This again is another boondoggle and waste of money on the part of Texdot. Shreveport population = 218k, metro = 500k. Houston population = 2 million, metro almost 6 million. Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service. First they wasted a bunch of money studying Houston to Austin with a meandering route through Hearne that would take 5-6 hours vs Greyounds 3 hours. The direct route was abandoned by the SP in the 1960's and Hwy 290 built on part of the ROW. Now this Shreveport thing. Strangely, SWA doesn't fly to Shreveport. lol. Greyhound runs at least 6 departures a day to Shreveport on a 3-4 hour schedule. American Airlines flys there several times a day. It's all just a smoke screen to hide from the real issue, and that is direct rail service between DFW and Houston on a four hour schedule. That would complete the so called 'Texas Triangle' of DFW/SAS/HOU/DFW. This is the basic route structure for passenger rail in Texas. Other destinations should be service by bus feeder lines, both highway and local metro. If we are to the point of starting up rail service between Dallas and Shreveport or adding the so called Crescent Star then the rest of the country must have the best rail service in the world. Before I did a 'Star' I would think about Texas to Colorado or bringing back the Lone Star or making the Sunset Limited daily or restoring SL service to Florida.

In an ideal world, the mid-west and southern states would have a corridor-style rail service between their major cities, connecting to the existing LD routes. Something like this-




Also, pigs would fly.


Until that happens, don't get your hopes high on any new corridors actually seeing the light of day in this part of the country.

[CHamilton]

Also, pigs would fly.

Well, let them. Human beings should take trains!

[afigg]

This again is another boondoggle and waste of money on the part of Texdot. Shreveport population = 218k, metro = 500k. Houston population = 2 million, metro almost 6 million. Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service.

For which Texas has a $15 million grant from the stimulus HSIPR funding to perform preliminary engineering and NEPA review for a "Dallas - Fort Worth to Houston Core Express Service" as the project is titled. The funding has been obligated, so the funds are in place.

Quoting from the HSIPR project summary description: "This project is for the preliminary engineering and project-level environmental analysis necessary to develop a new Core Express corridor from Dallas - Fort Worth to Houston, two of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. The project proposes to implement at least 150 mph high-speed intercity passenger rail service in a corridor that is not currently served."

Nothing says that TXDOT can't have contractors do the PE and EIS work to get to a Tier I EIS on a Dallas to Houston corridor while also overseeing a study on the options for a Dallas to Shreveport 79 mph service.

[eagle628]

Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service [...] The direct route was abandoned by the SP in the 1960's and Hwy 290 built on part of the ROW.

Don't you think those two statements are linked?

[henryj]

This again is another boondoggle and waste of money on the part of Texdot. Shreveport population = 218k, metro = 500k. Houston population = 2 million, metro almost 6 million. Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service.

For which Texas has a $15 million grant from the stimulus HSIPR funding to perform preliminary engineering and NEPA review for a "Dallas - Fort Worth to Houston Core Express Service" as the project is titled. The funding has been obligated, so the funds are in place.

Quoting from the HSIPR project summary description: "This project is for the preliminary engineering and project-level environmental analysis necessary to develop a new Core Express corridor from Dallas - Fort Worth to Houston, two of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. The project proposes to implement at least 150 mph high-speed intercity passenger rail service in a corridor that is not currently served."

Nothing says that TXDOT can't have contractors do the PE and EIS work to get to a Tier I EIS on a Dallas to Houston corridor while also overseeing a study on the options for a Dallas to Shreveport 79 mph service.

Once again they are still studying this thing to death and wasting more tax payer money. We will never see 150mph trains on an entirely new ROW in any of our lifetimes. There are two existing routes between Houston and Dallas, both of which hosted passenger trains until their demise. The shortest and fastest route is the BNSF route which is 249 miles and had four hour service from the late 1930's until the mid 1960's. This route is in good shape and is lightly used. The other route is the former SP(now UP) route through College Station and Hearne. This route is 264 miles and had 4hr 25min service until the mid 1950's. Amtrak restored service on this route briefly in the 1990's with a 6 hour train. Needless to say it didn't catch on. This route is very busy along certain sections. I don't know what TXDOT is looking at, but they are most likely just wasting their time and our money.

[Swadian Hardcore]

Where is Bossier City? Is it in-between SHV and DFW?

[Anderson]

Bossier's right on the border between Texas and Louisiana (I drove through there one evening last year), before you get to SHV.

[trainviews]

Bossier's right on the border between Texas and Louisiana (I drove through there one evening last year), before you get to SHV.

No, Bossier City is Shreveports twin city on the east bank of the Red river. It looks like they want to take the train over the river and have the terminal station there as well as one in Shreveport itself.

[johnny.menhennet]

This again is another boondoggle and waste of money on the part of Texdot. Shreveport population = 218k, metro = 500k. Houston population = 2 million, metro almost 6 million. Texdot is dancing all around the real issue of Houston to Dallas rail service. First they wasted a bunch of money studying Houston to Austin with a meandering route through Hearne that would take 5-6 hours vs Greyounds 3 hours. The direct route was abandoned by the SP in the 1960's and Hwy 290 built on part of the ROW. Now this Shreveport thing. Strangely, SWA doesn't fly to Shreveport. lol. Greyhound runs at least 6 departures a day to Shreveport on a 3-4 hour schedule. American Airlines flys there several times a day. It's all just a smoke screen to hide from the real issue, and that is direct rail service between DFW and Houston on a four hour schedule. That would complete the so called 'Texas Triangle' of DFW/SAS/HOU/DFW. This is the basic route structure for passenger rail in Texas. Other destinations should be service by bus feeder lines, both highway and local metro. If we are to the point of starting up rail service between Dallas and Shreveport or adding the so called Crescent Star then the rest of the country must have the best rail service in the world. Before I did a 'Star' I would think about Texas to Colorado or bringing back the Lone Star or making the Sunset Limited daily or restoring SL service to Florida.

In an ideal world, the mid-west and southern states would have a corridor-style rail service between their major cities, connecting to the existing LD routes. Something like this-




Also, pigs would fly.


Until that happens, don't get your hopes high on any new corridors actually seeing the light of day in this part of the country.

I like the idea of a service Dallas-Little Rock-Memphis, and I see you've chosen the abandoned but still usable Rock Island line Little-Rock-Memphis, which has always been the most direct. I think if you are trying to have a corridor rather than express service Dallas-Houston though, you should have it serve Bryan-College Station since it is a pretty significant intermediate point, especially once you consider all of the student population there.