38 replies to this topic

[DET63]

In Europe, the train would probably simply be run headfirst into TPA, then reversed, with the previously trailing cars in the lead (presumably pulled by a locomotive attached to the "rear" [now head] of the train). (This would be similar to the Surfliner at LAUS.) No wyeing would take place.

[John Bobinyec]

From the map, the train has to back over numerous highway grade crossings and two diamonds.

Is the route governed by signals?
Are the switches all power operated?
What is the method of operation over the diamonds?
How often are there grade crossing collisions while backing up?

JB

[jis]

Think of it this way..... at present the Tampa - Miami market is being served by a single corridor train per day, which also conveniently happens to be an equipment move to get the consist for the New York - Tampa train to its maintenance base in Hialeah. And afterall since it is going that way anyway, why not allow people to book travel through Tampa on it?

Unless some really out of this world experience overtakes us it is highly unlikely that Tampa will ever get a maintenance base for LD trains of any sort, and any passenger service on the S line is even more unlikely. Afterall they just struck a deal moving all freight from the A Line to the S Line, so that the A Line can become exclusively passenger. Does anyone really expect CSX to now turn around and accept a passenger train on the S Line? Well perhaps for a king's ransom, since afterall there is always a price point where anything can happen, but not a practical one in this case.

[NE933]

I wish this silly operation would go away. Have Star go down Ocala to Tampa, then swing on Lakeland branch to Auburndale and down to Miami.

The Tampa-S. Florida market makes up a good % of Silver Star riders.

Way back when, the Star wouldn't even switch to the A-line at Auburndale, but continue heading up the S-Line to Coleman (few miles south of Wildwood). Now that section of track is gone.

I think this explains much of the dilemma. The silliness is not backing into Tampa after Y-ing the train a mile or so away, it is rather the dog-tail style operation of going from Auburndale to reach Tampa, then traverse the same exact route to get back to Auburndale. I don't have a railroad map so I don't know exactly how this Coleman and Wildwood section of track existed, but it sounds like it allowed for a more sensible triangle run, if someone can correct me or fill us in if that's correct or not.

Is the right of way still intact for this Coleman part of the S-Line?

Edited by NE933, 01 March 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Ocala Mike]

It "effectively" doesn't exist; see post #23 above.

Tampa is a stub-end station, and is designed to be a TERMINAL. If Amtrak can't or won't service trains there, then maybe a shuttle service to connect to the "A" line is the way to go. I agree that the "retrograde" motion up and back on the Auburndale connector with the same train is ridiculous.


Ocala Mike

[AlanB]

I wish this silly operation would go away. Have Star go down Ocala to Tampa, then swing on Lakeland branch to Auburndale and down to Miami.

The Tampa-S. Florida market makes up a good % of Silver Star riders.

Way back when, the Star wouldn't even switch to the A-line at Auburndale, but continue heading up the S-Line to Coleman (few miles south of Wildwood). Now that section of track is gone.

I think this explains much of the dilemma. The silliness is not backing into Tampa after Y-ing the train a mile or so away, it is rather the dog-tail style operation of going from Auburndale to reach Tampa, then traverse the same exact route to get back to Auburndale. I don't have a railroad map so I don't know exactly how this Coleman and Wildwood section of track existed, but it sounds like it allowed for a more sensible triangle run, if someone can correct me or fill us in if that's correct or not.

Is the right of way still intact for this Coleman part of the S-Line?

No matter what you do one must wye the train at some point. Even back when the Silver Palm used the S-line, it still backed into Tampa both ways, northbound & southbound. It is unavoidable, unless one terminates the train in Tampa.

And even then, one would still need to eventually wye the consist, you just would be able to do it without any passengers on board.

[atltpa]

It "effectively" doesn't exist; see post #23 above.

Tampa is a stub-end station, and is designed to be a TERMINAL. If Amtrak can't or won't service trains there, then maybe a shuttle service to connect to the "A" line is the way to go. I agree that the "retrograde" motion up and back on the Auburndale connector with the same train is ridiculous.


Ocala Mike

A shuttle service from Tampa to Auburndale or where? As in a bus? Or a train?

Keep in mind that ridership at Tampa is booming (up to 140,000+ last year).

Reopening the maintenance base there and splitting either the Star or Meteor once again (as things existed pre 1994) would get my vote.

[jis]

I still don't understand what is wrong with the way the Star operates now.

There are many other such cases in the world where due to track locations a train has to retrace its steps some distance. For example Texan Sunset's train did that on its way from Howrah to Mumbais CST between Naini Jn. and Allahabad Jn.. I could come up with many other examples of this sort. So what if it has to retrace its path and even be turned?

[jphjaxfl]

When Amtrak used the Jacksonville Terminal up until January, 1973. The trains did a backup move out of the station. Amtrak eliminated some of the backup moves by building new stations ie; Jacksonville. Now no one knows where the Amtrak station is. Grand Forks, ND also had a long backup move when the Empire Builder used the Great Northern Station downtown. The train pulled into the station and then backed out to the Y where the line from Fargo intersected with the line to Minot. Amtrak solved the problem by building a new station at the Y and cut 30 min from the schedule.

[jimhudson]

Add New Orleans (NOL) to the List since ALL Trains (Sunset/CONO/Crescent) that go to Union Terminal have to Back into the Station! Others include Marshall and Ft. Worth on the Eagles Route and San Antonio (SAS) is Another One that involves Backing Into/Out of the Station (and Switching Movements) although not by ALL Trains using the Station.

Lots of Repeat Trackage Into and Out of the Stations and Leads to Worse OTP for these Trains!

Edited by jimhudson, 05 March 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Devil's Advocate]

San Antonio (SAS) is Another One that involves Backing Into/Out of the Station (and Switching Movements) although not by ALL Trains using the Station.

SAS is a run-through station that works a bit like a terminal from the operations perspective. The Westbound Sunset Limited passes the station and then backs up to collect the 421 cars. The Northbound Texas Eagle backs up before heading toward Chicago. The Southbound Texas Eagle doesn't backup but it does have to take a huge detour around the city before reaching the station. The only true run-through operation I can think of is the Eastbound Sunset Limited?

Edited by Texas Sunset, 05 March 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Ocala Mike]

The Tampa situation isn't just a "backup move." It involves a 90-mile "detour" off the run from Orlando to Miami for the express purpose of serving Tampa, which I agree should certainly have service. This adds hours to the trip on the Star, and, bottom line, I agree with the OP who stated that Amtrak needs to find a way to terminate and service trains at Tampa.


Ocala Mike

[fairviewroad]

The Tampa situation isn't just a "backup move." It involves a 90-mile "detour" off the run from Orlando to Miami for the express purpose of serving Tampa, which I agree should certainly have service. This adds hours to the trip on the Star, and, bottom line, I agree with the OP who stated that Amtrak needs to find a way to terminate and service trains at Tampa.


Ocala Mike

In fairness it only adds hours onto the trip to people who are traveling through Tampa. Anyone whose trip is entirely north of Tampa or entirely south of Tampa is not affected. Many of those traveling through Tampa have another option (the Meteor). Not saying the present system is perfect but to a certain extent it works.

Edited by fairviewroad, 05 March 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[xyzzy]

Anyone whose trip is entirely north of Tampa or entirely south of Tampa is not affected.

I agree. From personal observation, most passengers between the northeast and Miami take 97/98. 91/92 carry a lot of intra-Florida passengers, as well as passengers between Florida and the Carolinas, as well as passengers between the Carolinas and the northeast -- but 91/92 don't carry that many passengers end-to-end, at least not like 97/98 do. The intra-Florida traffic generates significant revenue for 91/92.

As for the Jacksonville station, it's less than 5 miles from the old one. Not ideal but not as bad as Staples Mill in Richmond, Va.

[George Harris]

A track arrangement where trains can reverse drection by pulling in and backing out and then pulling forward back toward the way the came from to begin with is called a wye regardless of the precise shape of the arrangement. In fact, it can be set up with a series of spring switches so that a train can run through it both in and out without having to have any of the switches thrown either manually or by power machines. You simply have the switches set to point the leading end the way it ought to go and when it comes back it will push the points over and they will spring back so they are set right for the next train.

A good exmple of this, obviously long gone, was the Missouri Pacific station in Hot Springs, Arkansas, which as late as early 1962 had two trains that terminated there each day with cars from/to both Memphis and St. Louis. There was even through Pullman service to Chicago with the late morning arrival, mid afternoon departure train. This also lasted to at least 1960.

[jphjaxfl]

I lived in Hot Springs, AR in the late 1950s to 1966. I frequently rode the MP trains. The through Sleeping Cars are to and from Chicago lasted until January 20, 1964, the last day of passenger trains to Hot Springs. The MP tracks in between Benton and the Diamond Jo Bridge in Hot Springs were quickly torn up with MP freight trains using the Rock Islands line from Benton to Hot Springs. I was on the last train at 2PM in my sophomore year of high school. I remember the spring switches and the backup move into the station.

[George Harris]

I lived in Hot Springs, AR in the late 1950s to 1966. I frequently rode the MP trains. The through Sleeping Cars are to and from Chicago lasted until January 20, 1964, the last day of passenger trains to Hot Springs. The MP tracks in between Benton and the Diamond Jo Bridge in Hot Springs were quickly torn up with MP freight trains using the Rock Islands line from Benton to Hot Springs. I was on the last train at 2PM in my sophomore year of high school. I remember the spring switches and the backup move into the station.

Thanks much for that information. My first train ride just for the sake of the ride was Memphis to Little Rock and back in 1962. M to LR on the Rock Island diesel car, walk across town to the MoPac station and catch the MoPac train back. I remember major shuffling by MoPac in Little Rock as the train from Texas and the train from Hot Springs were shuffled around into trains to Memphis and to St. Louis. The train left LR about 25 minutes late and backed up to the post in Memphis Union Station right on time. Some was padding, yes, but the rest was fast running. Particularly the near dead straight double track between Little Rock and Bald Knob.

[jphjaxfl]

I lived in Hot Springs, AR in the late 1950s to 1966. I frequently rode the MP trains. The through Sleeping Cars are to and from Chicago lasted until January 20, 1964, the last day of passenger trains to Hot Springs. The MP tracks in between Benton and the Diamond Jo Bridge in Hot Springs were quickly torn up with MP freight trains using the Rock Islands line from Benton to Hot Springs. I was on the last train at 2PM in my sophomore year of high school. I remember the spring switches and the backup move into the station.

Thanks much for that information. My first train ride just for the sake of the ride was Memphis to Little Rock and back in 1962. M to LR on the Rock Island diesel car, walk across town to the MoPac station and catch the MoPac train back. I remember major shuffling by MoPac in Little Rock as the train from Texas and the train from Hot Springs were shuffled around into trains to Memphis and to St. Louis. The train left LR about 25 minutes late and backed up to the post in Memphis Union Station right on time. Some was padding, yes, but the rest was fast running. Particularly the near dead straight double track between Little Rock and Bald Knob.

There were lots of passengers on the MP Memphis section of the Southerner arriving Memphis at 7:00PM that connected to the Tennessean departing Memphis at 7:15PM and the Memphis section of the Hummingbird also departing at 7:15PM. Those connections even though only 15 minutes were almost always made with the Southern or L&N waiting up to 15 mins if MP was late. I can't imagine something like that happening with Amtrak.

[George Harris]

Those connections even though only 15 minutes were almost always made with the Southern or L&N waiting up to 15 mins if MP was late. I can't imagine something like that happening with Amtrak.

These wait times were in the employee timetables. Usually there would be a list of Train XX will wait at Metropolis up to YY minutes for connecting passengers from Train ZZ. There would sometimes be a fairly lengthy list. The time would vary quite a bit based on the relative importance of the trains and the volume of traffic. Then there would be such things as the listing at Bristol which stated that Southern train (whatever number) would wait indefinitely for N&W train (of the same number). Since this (whatever number) train was a continuation of the N&W train (of the same number) that would seem to go without saying, but obviously not.