103 replies to this topic

[railiner]

I recall curving through the Rockies on an 18 superliner car combined CZ, Pioneer and Desert wind.

Too bad it don't happen no more!

Yes sir! Those were the days....one of the rare Amtrak trains that had two full diners. They were called by the on board service crews "The Chicago Diner", or "The Los Angeles Diner" according to their crew base. The "Chicago Diner" went to Oakland. The Pioneer got its food service car at Salt Lake City. Can't recall if it was a diner or SSL.

[jis]

I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.

Specially considering that Amtrak or is it FRA(?) does not allow split double HEP circuits in a train with two sections being fed from two different HEP source, which is a common practice in India on super long trains.

There is nothing prohibiting split HEP. Auto Train is at its limit as far as current drawn thru the HEP cables. There has been talk of outfitting the rear portion of the consist with a generator in hopes of being able to add more cars.

Good to know. Thanks for the clarification.

[Blackwolf]

I know their LD fleet is super-old and they're refurbishing it. What is their corridor fleet (i.e. the Quebec/Ontario services) made up of? The LRCs?

VIA has two "Long-Distance" fleets in reality. The Montreal to Halifax Ocean is normally assigned an all Renaissance-equipped route with three dedicated consists, but currently (and this has been the case over the past few winters) one of the consists has been taken out of service to rehab the rapidly aging interiors while upgrading the handicap access to meet new requirements. While this is happening, a stainless steel Budd consist is substituted. Outside this one route, all the other LD trains (Canadian, The Pas, Winnipeg-Churchill, Gaspe', Prince Rupert) use the vintage Budd-built stainless steel cars that are circa 1950's.

For the corridor fleet, they use all three classes of passenger car. It all depends on which train you pick time-wise in the schedule that generally dictates your class of railcar. For instance, me and my wife will be on Train #57 between Montreal and Toronto next Tuesday and it will be an all Budd stainless steel consist (VIA calls this their HEP-II fleet, meaning the cars were originally steam heated but upgraded to Head End Power, then upgraded again so that the cars have MU cables to allow for either a cab-car or locomotives on both ends; they are identified by having both the blue stripe and a smaller reflective yellow stripe above the windows.) Meanwhile, Train #61, which departs on the same route one hour later is equipped with an LRC consist. Train #659, which departs Montreal at 4 PM, is a Renaissance-equipped train.

If you are curious, you can tell what each train will be equipped with by going to VIA's website and checking out the scheduled routes. Scroll your cursor over each train number, and the URL for the connecting information page on that train will contain in the last three characters either HE2, REN, or LRC; and now you know how to tell what equipment you'll be rewarded with!

[jis]

Nice! Care to explain the Mumbai Mail?

What is there to explain? That is the train that you see in the picture posted by Texan. Normally it would pass that particular section in darkness, but it was in daylight this day because it was running late. I identified the section from the photo since that is on what used to be my old stomping grounds. There are a few railroad sections that I could qualify for with relatively little effort, and that section used to be one of them. It is on the Grand Chord line that is one of the main routes from Kolkata to Delhi.

[The Davy Crockett]

I know their LD fleet is super-old and they're refurbishing it. What is their corridor fleet (i.e. the Quebec/Ontario services) made up of? The LRCs?

VIA has two "Long-Distance" fleets in reality. The Montreal to Halifax Ocean is normally assigned an all Renaissance-equipped route with three dedicated consists, but currently (and this has been the case over the past few winters) one of the consists has been taken out of service to rehab the rapidly aging interiors while upgrading the handicap access to meet new requirements. While this is happening, a stainless steel Budd consist is substituted. Outside this one route, all the other LD trains (Canadian, The Pas, Winnipeg-Churchill, Gaspe', Prince Rupert) use the vintage Budd-built stainless steel cars that are circa 1950's.

For the corridor fleet, they use all three classes of passenger car. It all depends on which train you pick time-wise in the schedule that generally dictates your class of railcar. For instance, me and my wife will be on Train #57 between Montreal and Toronto next Tuesday and it will be an all Budd stainless steel consist (VIA calls this their HEP-II fleet, meaning the cars were originally steam heated but upgraded to Head End Power, then upgraded again so that the cars have MU cables to allow for either a cab-car or locomotives on both ends; they are identified by having both the blue stripe and a smaller reflective yellow stripe above the windows.) Meanwhile, Train #61, which departs on the same route one hour later is equipped with an LRC consist. Train #659, which departs Montreal at 4 PM, is a Renaissance-equipped train.

If you are curious, you can tell what each train will be equipped with by going to VIA's website and checking out the scheduled routes. Scroll your cursor over each train number, and the URL for the connecting information page on that train will contain in the last three characters either HE2, REN, or LRC; and now you know how to tell what equipment you'll be rewarded with!

I've been trying to pull up the information, but am having trouble following your explanation. Maybe you could elaborate further about this in the VIA topic area? This would be helpful to know for booking corridor trains. Thanks!

Edited by The Davy Crockett, 24 February 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[Blackwolf]

I've been trying to pull up the information, but am having trouble following your explanation. Maybe you could elaborate further about this in the VIA topic area? This would be helpful to know for booking corridor trains. Thanks!

It used to be a little easier, but VIA recently changed their website just a little bit. I'll see if I can break the process down a little bit more to make things easy.

Go to VIA's website.

Using their booking widget, type in the city pair you want to travel between. I'll put in Montreal to Toronto, one way, for this example. Click search.

A new page will open, and on it will list all of your options for trains. I use Firefox for my browser, so when I hover my cursor over a link, on the bottom of my screen will pop up the URL address of the connecting web page. As such, if I hover my cursor over the underlined train number on VIA's scheduling page, I can look at the URL without actually opening the page. If your browser does not do this, the next step is to click on a train number, then look at the URL in the address bar after it loads.

Example: javascript:openClassInfo(3,'&t0=57&e0=HP2&s=0')

HP2 = Budd Stainless Steel cars.
LRC = Bombardier Light, Rapid, Comfortable cars.
REN = Alstrom Renaissance cars.

Hopefully that helps!!

[mfastx]

Here is a vid of my submission:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=imXO3qFSODc

peter

PS: and after watching the vid, I counted 22 cars, not counting the Cabbage at the beginning, as it's only the ITCS protection unit & not hauling baggage).

Great vid, thanks.

There you go, see not one but two very long long Empire Builders in one video-

Here is a 14 car long Lake Shore Limited

And then, stuff that caravanman, jis and I were discussing- 24 car long express trains from India-

With electric engine

With diesel engine

Thanks for sharing.

[The Davy Crockett]

Hopefully that helps!!

It did! Thanks!

[Swadian Hardcore]

Nice! Care to explain the Mumbai Mail?

What is there to explain? That is the train that you see in the picture posted by Texan. Normally it would pass that particular section in darkness, but it was in daylight this day because it was running late. I identified the section from the photo since that is on what used to be my old stomping grounds. There are a few railroad sections that I could qualify for with relatively little effort, and that section used to be one of them. It is on the Grand Chord line that is one of the main routes from Kolkata to Delhi.

Oh, sorry!

What are its destinations?
Why so many pax?
Which class of train?
What locomotives?

By the way jis, are you Indian?

[jis]

What are its destinations?

Howrah Mumbai Mail via Grand Chord and Allahabad runs from Howrah (Kolkata) to Mumbai CST (ex-Victoria Terminus) (Mumbai)

Why so many pax?

India has a huge population the upper and middle echelons of it is remarkably mobile. Indian Railways is the mainstay of passenger transportation in India. Airlines are a relatively small proportion of passenger transport, and road transport works for short to medium haul, but not so well for long haul. So all long distance trains are perpetually overloaded. Standard LD consist these days is 20 to 24 cars. The super-fast Rajdhanis and Durontos are restricted to 18 or 19 cars.

Which class of train?

That one is a Mail train which means that it carries mail/parcels. Mail trains are slower than the fastest express trains, but tend to continue running even when other trains are disrupted.

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

By the way jis, are you Indian?

Yes. First generation born in independent India. Spent over half my life in the US though.

[Swadian Hardcore]

What are its destinations?

Howrah Mumbai Mail via Grand Chord and Allahabad runs from Howrah (Kolkata) to Mumbai CST (ex-Victoria Terminus) (Mumbai)

Why so many pax?

India has a huge population the upper and middle echelons of it is remarkably mobile. Indian Railways is the mainstay of passenger transportation in India. Airlines are a relatively small proportion of passenger transport, and road transport works for short to medium haul, but not so well for long haul. So all long distance trains are perpetually overloaded. Standard LD consist these days is 20 to 24 cars. The super-fast Rajdhanis and Durontos are restricted to 18 or 19 cars.

Which class of train?

That one is a Mail train which means that it carries mail/parcels. Mail trains are slower than the fastest express trains, but tend to continue running even when other trains are disrupted.

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

By the way jis, are you Indian?

Yes. First generation born in independent India. Spent over half my life in the US though.

As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?
How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

[Texan Eagle]

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

This particular train is unique on the Indian Railways network as being one of those very few trains that are hauled by 4 different types of locomotives from source to destination-
1) From the start of the journey in Howrah to Allahabad it is hauled by WAP-4 class electric locomotive as jis mentioned
2) At Allahabad the train undergoes a reversal and the line from Allahabad to Itarsi is unelectrified so it gets a WDP-4B class diesel locomotive which is actually EMD's GT46 series locomotive.
3) From Itarsi to Igatpuri again it gets an 25kV 50Hz AC electric locomotive, this time of WAM-4 class which is the older and less powerful cousin of the WAP-4.
4) For the last leg from Igatpuri to Mumbai the locomotive is changed to a WCAM-3 class electric which can run on 1500V DC supply as well as 25kV 50Hz supply since parts of Mumbai are still under old 1500V DC traction.

[Texan Eagle]

As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?

WDM-2 is the nomenclature given by Indian Railways to their classic 2600hp Alco diesel locomotives. For decades they have been the main workhorses across India's non-electrified routes. Over time Diesel Locomotive Works factory in India made some tweaks to the original design and came up with upgraded models based on original WDM-2 design, namely the 3100hp WDM-3A and 3300hp WDM-3D class. These three classes dominate the diesel routes in India even today, though their monopoly is slowly being challenged by the GM EMD GT46PAC and GT46MAC series diesel-electric locomotives being added to the fleet now. The WDM-1s were retired completely sometime in 1990s. You can find information about all different class of locomotives in use on Indian Railways here.

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

What jis meant was, the 'Mail' trains get higher priority over other trains since traditionally they were entrusted with carrying postal mail and the British would not have liked that service being disrupted. So if there is any event that requires partial cancellation of trains over any route, for example a derailment or excessive fog, the 'Mail' trains will not come under the hammer first. They may be rescheduled, put on diverted routes but all efforts are made to ensure the 'Mail' trains are not outright cancelled unless absolutely necessary.

[jis]

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

One common disruption is fog in the winter, which leads to such delays that they simply run out of consists. In face of such problem the Rajdhani Expresses and the premier Mails are least likely to get cancelled, though even they run into logistical roadblocks eventually and occasionally do get cancelled. OTOH the Mails definitely do not get the royal treatment from dispatchers that the Rajdhanis, Durontos and Shatabdis enjoy. So they do tend to get delayed more than those faster trains.

For example the Howrah Rajdhani consist gets turned in New Delhi between about 10am and 5pm. In foggy conditions it is not uncommon for the incoming to arrive after 5pm. They are then able to run the consist within a couple of hours and send it back on its way, and that is sufficient to ensure on time departure from Howrah for most Delhi bound Rajdhanis, since they use 3+1 (standby) consist to run a service that could theoretically be run with 2. OTOH Kalka Mail gets delayed more, and still is run consistently provided consist is available. It is not at all unusual for lesser through trains to simply get cancelled under those circumstances, just to reduce congestion caused by reduced effective capacity of the main line.

The dispatching problems are monumental since these higher speed trains have to be threaded through a barrage of freight trains roughly one running every 5 mins. The dispatcher's timetable sheet is indeed a sight to behold on a route like the Grand Chord or between Delhi and Kanpur Central.

[Swadian Hardcore]

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

One common disruption is fog in the winter, which leads to such delays that they simply run out of consists. In face of such problem the Rajdhani Expresses and the premier Mails are least likely to get cancelled, though even they run into logistical roadblocks eventually and occasionally do get cancelled. OTOH the Mails definitely do not get the royal treatment from dispatchers that the Rajdhanis, Durontos and Shatabdis enjoy. So they do tend to get delayed more than those faster trains.

For example the Howrah Rajdhani consist gets turned in New Delhi between about 10am and 5pm. In foggy conditions it is not uncommon for the incoming to arrive after 5pm. They are then able to run the consist within a couple of hours and send it back on its way, and that is sufficient to ensure on time departure from Howrah for most Delhi bound Rajdhanis, since they use 3+1 (standby) consist to run a service that could theoretically be run with 2. OTOH Kalka Mail gets delayed more, and still is run consistently provided consist is available. It is not at all unusual for lesser through trains to simply get cancelled under those circumstances, just to reduce congestion caused by reduced effective capacity of the main line.

The dispatching problems are monumental since these higher speed trains have to be threaded through a barrage of freight trains roughly one running every 5 mins. The dispatcher's timetable sheet is indeed a sight to behold on a route like the Grand Chord or between Delhi and Kanpur Central.

Oh, wow. Didn't know about Indian weather.

[AlanB]

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?

Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.

[Swadian Hardcore]

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?

Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.

Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?

[AlanB]

Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.

I have to wonder, with VIA's HEP configuration of dual 440v lines running both sides of the cars, what their consist limit is? If you are pushing the legal limit for HEP on Amtrak's Auto Train with the current consist, you have to think about the differences between two fleets and which one works better over-all for flexibility.

Keep in mind that Superliners draw far more power than single level cars draw.

[AlanB]

I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.

Specially considering that Amtrak or is it FRA(?) does not allow split double HEP circuits in a train with two sections being fed from two different HEP source, which is a common practice in India on super long trains.

There is nothing prohibiting split HEP. Auto Train is at its limit as far as current drawn thru the HEP cables. There has been talk of outfitting the rear portion of the consist with a generator in hopes of being able to add more cars.

I'm not so sure about that. There is an FRA regulation that requires the engineer to have the ability to monitor HEP in the cab. Now it doesn't say that HEP must be under his control, or that it must be located in the engine, but at the very least Amtrak would have to find some way to display the status of a generator car providing HEP to part of the train in the cab of the engine.

Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.