53 replies to this topic

[jis]

The other factor that feeds into this sort of thing is also how many unencashed AGR points are sloshing around in the system. As they become more liberal with special double and triple point and other deals, the flip side is that cost of tickets in AGR points also goes up eventually. It is just the dynamics of the market in AGR points.

[abcnews]

So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?

BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).

[PRR 60]

So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?

BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).

Yes, regardless of the trip date (can be up to 11 months in advance), AGR trips booked prior to April 1 will get the old rates. However, if a trip booked prior to April 1 is modified on or after April 1, the change will require imposition of the new rate. If you book a bedroom Chicago to Seattle on March 29 for 30,000 points and on April 2 decide to change the date of travel, you will have to ante-up the additional 10,000 points to make the change.

[dlagrua]

One thing that I've always considered unfair is that it takes a two zone 10 hr AGR trip to get from PGH to CHI but you can also go from CHI to LAX for the same two zones and two nights.

[the_traveler]

I agree that east coast to CHI is a 2 zone trip, while Portland, ME to MIA is a 1 zone trip - and the Portland to MIA trip is MUCH longer!

[fairviewroad]

So if you reserve your trip before April 1st - you still get the old rates - right?

BTW - I wish these were just seasonal, in other words, would be really nice if you could still use the old redemption rates for off peak/winter travel in future years, like November thru March - on non holiday blackouts days. And you have to use more points for April through October (new rates).

Yes, seasonal redemption variations would seem to make a lot of sense and relatively easy to implement.

One thing that I've always considered unfair is that it takes a two zone 10 hr AGR trip to get from PGH to CHI but you can also go from CHI to LAX for the same two zones and two nights.

Ah, but this bites in both directions as we all know. And furthermore the same pattern is true for airline tickets. Airlines want the same 25,000 frequent flyer miles for a high-dollar cross-country flight between small obscure airports as they do for a regional high-frequency, low-cost route. It's up to us to figure out what makes the best sense. The logical alternative for airlines and for Amtrak is for them to tie the number of points/miles you need to redeem to the going rate of the ticket. But I'm pretty sure most of us would hate that idea.

[fairviewroad]

Another thought: as much as I love those special route redemptions, this will (mostly) close the loophole that allows passengers to purchase the points needed for a special route redemption for less than the actual cost of the ticket. (See the Cascades corridor, for instance...much cheaper to buy points from PDX-VAC than to pay cash for the ticket). With the higher redemption rates it will make sense less often to buy the points, which I suppose is a logical (though disappointing) move by Amtrak.

[Devil's Advocate]

Taking the value of a point as being $.01 (what you'd get on an efficient gift card redemption, were you to do so), you get the following:

BR/One Zone:	$200.00 to $250.00
BR/Two Zone:	$300.00 to $400.00
BR/Three Zone:	$500.00 to $600.00

In my view the "value" of a point is what Amtrak charges you to buy one, in which case we would have something more like this...

Bedroom - One Zone       $550 becomes  $688 
Bedroom - Two Zones 	 $825 becomes $1100
Bedroom - Three Zones 	$1375 becomes $1650

While that is still cheaper than paying Amtrak's current ticket cost, in many cases it's already more expensive than first class airfare. It's true that you can fit an extra person or two tiny people in a bedroom so sometimes you may get ahead there, but I was still able to find two and even three first class tickets for a similar price as a single Amtrak bedroom on Orbitz. The family room beats first class airfare, but with only one of those per sleeper they're not likely to be free.

In most of these cases, you're still looking at an impressive deal: A bedroom from WAS to LAX on the Cap and the Chief in the middle of the month (I picked Jan. 18) runs $1616; going from NYP-LAX on the LSL/SWC is $1787; NYP-SEA on the LSL/Builder is $1475. Even the cheapest coast-to-coast trip on that date (WAS-EMY on the Cap and the Zephry) runs $1158. By contrast, you can also book a MIA-NYP-CHI-LAX Meteor-LSL-SWC that "ought" to cost you $3134 for those rooms for that same price.

I'm not sure how impressive of a deal it is. Amtrak's paid bedroom fares have already become just about the most expensive way to travel outside of a private jet or rock star bus. But yeah, I guess compared to that it's a steal.

Edited by Texas Sunset, 05 January 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[City of Miami]

Well, I'm glad that's over! I've been dreading the inevitable - and when it comes it doesn't impact me. I have never been in a bedroom and since I always seems to travel alone roomettes are just fine. I have nearly 80K pts so four 2 zoners within reach. I was planning to take one of them next month (EMY-SAS via Zephyr/Eagle)but I was given a large Amtrak gift certificate for Christmas and it seems more advantageous to use that instead of an AGR trip to pay for it as the Zephyr is quite reasonable now and the point value would only be about $.036.

[tonys96]

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????

[RampWidget]

I'm quick to mock AGR for its generally shambolic relationship to business, but this is as classy a devaluation as I have seen. We have nearly three months to book travel, there are still no capacity controls, and we can book travel for eleven months ahead. Compare that to what British Airways and Hilton have done in the past couple of years. Really, while I'm not happy about the increase, I'm pleasantly impressed by how it was done.

That having been said, the first time I booked DEN-SAC-PDX-MSP in bedrooms it was a one-zone award for 20,000 points. Soon it will be a two-zone award for 40,000 points. It's still a great deal, but not what it was, and with the end of transfers through Continental I fear AGR points will be harder for me to acquire.

I'll admit that I initially thought that this was a joke, given that the changes take effect April Fools Day.

I'll second this sentiment. The other point I'll make is that you're still getting a solid deal almost across the board. Taking the value of a point as being $.01 (what you'd get on an efficient gift card redemption, were you to do so), you get the following:

Acela First:	$105.00 to $120.00
Business, NE:	$65.00  to $75.00
Coach, NE:	$30.00  to $40.00
Business, Spec:	$15.00  to $20.00
Coach, Spec:	$10.00  to $15.00
BR/One Zone:	$200.00 to $250.00
BR/Two Zone:	$300.00 to $400.00
BR/Three Zone:	$500.00 to $600.00
Rule Buster 1:	$185.00 to $190.00
Rule Buster 2:	$115.00 to $130.00
Rule Buster 3:	$55.00  to $70.00

In most of these cases, you're still looking at an impressive deal: A bedroom from WAS to LAX on the Cap and the Chief in the middle of the month (I picked Jan. 18) runs $1616; going from NYP-LAX on the LSL/SWC is $1787; NYP-SEA on the LSL/Builder is $1475. Even the cheapest coast-to-coast trip on that date (WAS-EMY on the Cap and the Zephry) runs $1158. By contrast, you can also book a MIA-NYP-CHI-LAX Meteor-LSL-SWC that "ought" to cost you $3134 for those rooms for that same price.

Do note that most of those special corridors are seeing major fare spikes this year, too (the Surfliner jumps to mind in particular, but it's pretty steady across the board), while that Acela First ticket still gets you a $306 fare WAS-BOS this weekend.

Is this deal "less good" than it was before? Yes. Is it still a very good deal? Absolutely, particularly if you use it right. And there is still (at least for the interim, and presumably for another year or two; I doubt we'd see a second set of increases this year) the roomette deal.

Couldn't agree more that this is still a pretty good deal, even with the redemption levels going up. I might also point out that we are able, up to April 1st, to book reward travel at the OLD rates. Just booked a Bedroom on #14 LAX/SEA last night for travel April 12th... still only 20K points. Think it's time to transfer some more points into my AGR account & book some summertime sightseeing! By the way, the AGR rep on the phone last night was Gr8 to deal with... pleasant, professional, & thorough... put us in Bdrm E, 32 car, without even being asked.

[Oldsmoboi]

Airfare is going up too.

[Ispolkom]

Airfare is going up too.

Depends on where you're flying. Southwest just dropped the price of my MSP-DEN flight in May by $10. I quickly reticketed.

[Oldsmoboi]

As a general average I mean. Specific flights will still go up and down, but the overall trend appears to be up.

[abcnews]

I was over on the AGR site, and I noticed in the Northeast zone - and the Bedroom Award.

In the past, I never though a minute about that - simply because the redemption was exactly the same as "One Zone Award". So there really was no savings - except for a Northeast zone, coach ticket (just 3,000 points). However, now I can't help but wonder... There is no mention of a redemption increase on a Bedroom in the Northeast Zone. The increase takes effect on April 1, 2012 and specifically mentions a One Zone, two zone, etc awards. But no mention of the Northeast Zone... which currently shows a specific 20,000 point award - for a bedroom anywhere in the Northeast zone (item #1047).

Not really a big deal, so that must mean that a BR in the Northeast zone will remain at 20,000? That would be OK - and honestly, very fair for all. Example - from Richmond to Syracuse - would just be 20,000 for a Bedroom - after April 1st, but Richmond to Tampa (in a bedroom) would go up (one Zone) - and it would be 25,000 points, after April 1st.

[printman2000]

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????

The whole point of raising the point value is to make it harder to redeem. I would think that Amtrak expects to see redemptions down.

Does not mean they will not have a bonus on points sales, though. Just depends on if they feel they can make money on it or not.

[Shortline]

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????

The whole point of raising the point value is to make it harder to redeem. I would think that Amtrak expects to see redemptions down.

Does not mean they will not have a bonus on points sales, though. Just depends on if they feel they can make money on it or not.

I'm not sure I completely agree....this increase might just be a trigger to get MORE redemptions in a short amount of time, to get the unfounded liability off the books. Seems smart to me to do it this way....by giving the grace period, it would encourage members with large numbers of points on the balance sheet to pull the trigger and use them, over the next year, instead of letting them pile up. I know I wasn't planning on using them this year, but due to the change, I just booked a 40,000 point redemption. By clearing off a lot of the points, it lowers their outstanding unfounded liability. Im no expert, but it's how I see it.

[printman2000]

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????

The whole point of raising the point value is to make it harder to redeem. I would think that Amtrak expects to see redemptions down.

Does not mean they will not have a bonus on points sales, though. Just depends on if they feel they can make money on it or not.

I'm not sure I completely agree....this increase might just be a trigger to get MORE redemptions in a short amount of time, to get the unfounded liability off the books. Seems smart to me to do it this way....by giving the grace period, it would encourage members with large numbers of points on the balance sheet to pull the trigger and use them, over the next year, instead of letting them pile up. I know I wasn't planning on using them this year, but due to the change, I just booked a 40,000 point redemption. By clearing off a lot of the points, it lowers their outstanding unfounded liability. Im no expert, but it's how I see it.

You make a good point. I just cannot see how trying to get people to redeem points is good for Amtrak. That costs them money. People stockpiling points costs them hardly anything.

To me, the purpose seems to be a raise in points so you have to spend more to earn redemptions. The purpose of getting people to spend their points in such a short amount of time does not sound like something they would want to do.

[Shortline]

I was afraid this would happen when they had the 50% bonus sale last year. Now if redemptions are way down in 2012, perhaps they will repeat a bonus sale sometime during the year????

The whole point of raising the point value is to make it harder to redeem. I would think that Amtrak expects to see redemptions down.

Does not mean they will not have a bonus on points sales, though. Just depends on if they feel they can make money on it or not.

I'm not sure I completely agree....this increase might just be a trigger to get MORE redemptions in a short amount of time, to get the unfounded liability off the books.  Seems smart to me to do it this way....by giving the grace period, it would encourage members with large numbers of points on the balance sheet to pull the trigger and use them, over the next year, instead of letting them pile up. I know I wasn't planning on using them this year, but due to the change, I just booked a 40,000 point redemption. By clearing off a lot of the points, it lowers their outstanding unfounded liability. Im no expert, but it's how I see it.

You make a good point. I just cannot see how trying to get people to redeem points is good for Amtrak. That costs them money. People stockpiling points costs them hardly anything.

To me, the purpose seems to be a raise in points so you have to spend more to earn redemptions. The purpose of getting people to spend their points in such a short amount of time does not sound like something they would want to do.

Unused points are essentially debt. Amtrak "owes" X number of people x number of what essentially are real dollars. The trip I booked, if I paid for it, would have cost me over $2500. That space is now not able to be sold to someone with money, therefore it's a real cost. By Getting a lot of people to use up points now, and devaluing the rest, it lowers the amount of what is essentially debt liability. FF programs and hotel programs do this for the same reason. Let too many unused points pile up out there in the system, is like having a huge stack of IOU's. To lower what they owe, they get people to settle up, as it were, so they can better plan on what they can reasonably expect to earn from sales. I'm no economist by any means, but it makes some sense to me to keep the total potential debt down n such a manner. Ticket prices don't go down over time, they go up. So, in theory, having a lot of people redeeming at this years prices vs pricing in the future, saves them. They made money selling the points, but if not used at near term rates, the "cost" paid to those points decreases, while the equivalent cost of travel keeps increasing. That's what I think is going on.

Edited by Shortline, 08 February 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Devil's Advocate]

The problem with seeing these points as "real" currency is that their value is completely arbitrary. Even a relatively small AGR balance of 20,000 points could potentially be worth anything from $20 to $2,000. That’s a huge disparity and it certainly doesn’t sound like any first world currency I’m aware of. So do we just pick a random value? The minimum or maximum possible value? The median value across all potential routings? Until the points are actually used there’s no way to know what they’re worth to us. I’m sure AGR has a calculation for how much they’re worth to them based on cost factors and transaction histories we’re not privy to, but for us on the outside the value varies wildly from account to account and trip to trip. Their worth and usage can be unilaterally amended, modified, or invalidated at AGR’s sole discretion. That means they’re anything BUT real dollars in my book, despite what the next 1099 might have to say about it.

Edited by Texas Sunset, 08 February 2012 - 12:05 PM.