14 replies to this topic

[DET63]

Are PV cars ever connected to trains when they are run in the push direction? If so, where are they placed? Behind the engine? I would assume they can't be the lead car, since that would require a control stand (and have to be hooked up through the train to the engine). They also couldn't be put next in front of the engine (i.e., between the engine and the last "regular" car), since the power from the HE power plant as well as the signals from the control equipment would have to be routed through the PV car. But would it be practical (or even possible) to put a PV behind the locomotive (i.e., with the loco placed between the PV and the rest of the train)?

If PV can't be used on a pushed train, would this mean that some places, where all the trains are either pushed coming in or pushed leaving, would be inaccessible to PV equipment?

[jis]

Generally push-pull trains tend to be operated in corridor situations and operate as a single unit, almost like semi-articulated consists, so generally, no PVs on them. There are other ways of moving PVs that do not involve being attached to a passenger train.

[AlanB]

The problem for a PV would be the lack of a pass through for the control cables needed to allow a cab car to operate the engine. HEP isn't a problem as most PV's are wired for HEP. In fact I believe that it is a requirement that they can both handle & pass through HEP in order to be hauled by an Amtrak train.

[Trogdor]

There's nothing that says you can't hook up a car behind the locomotive in push mode.

[ehbowen]

It is possible to (and several owners do) equip a PV with a 27-conductor M.U. (multiple unit) pass-through cable which transmits the signals from the push cab control stand to the rear locomotive. A PV so equipped may be carried between the locomotive and the first regular passenger car. Otherwise they must ride behind the locomotive in push mode, and I believe I've read somewhere that Amtrak does not normally want to do that. I'm not sure if it's an absolute prohibition, though.

[jis]

PVs that move from Hudson/Hoboken to Morristown NJ for interchange with M&E usually run as a separate train with their own engine and all, usually either an M&E unit or an NS unit. NJT never places a PV on any of its push pulls.

With Amtrak it may be a different story, but since most routes that have push pull also have at least one regular train most likely the issue is mostly moot. Places where it would become an issue would be like on the Downeaster route. My guess is Amtrak does not carry PVs on those trains. Alternative arrangements are made. Then there is the Los Angeles - San Diego Corridor too, and the Vermonter beyond New Haven.

[FrensicPic]

I have been on several PV's (through LARail dot com) on the Pacific Surfliner between San Diego and San Luis Obispo. The cars have been capable of operating anywhere in the consist

The Overland Trail is commonly entrained behind the loco for the northbound (pull) to SLO and remains there for the push back south to L.A.

To San Diego from LA, PVs have been at the trailing end of the southbound train while in pull mode; decoupled and "parked" in San Diego and coupled back on to a later train for the return to L.A. On the return trip, the PV is coupled behind the pushing locomotive with the Surfliner consist ahead of the loco and controlled from the leading cab-car.

[jis]

That makes sense. If the PV is not train-lined it has to be placed behind the locomotive in push mode.

Edited by jis, 06 May 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Blackwolf]

The Overland Trail is commonly entrained behind the loco for the northbound (pull) to SLO and remains there for the push back south to L.A.

Are passengers allowed in the car when it is in front of the Locomotive while heading back south? With all the rules and policies the FRA is happy to enforce, and especially after the Chatsworth incident showing just how much damage can occur between a heavy freight and passenger train, I would be surprised to hear of it.

Although, it would be pretty fun to get a very unique "cab ride" of sorts!

[FrensicPic]

The Overland Trail is commonly entrained behind the loco for the northbound (pull) to SLO and remains there for the push back south to L.A.

Are passengers allowed in the car when it is in front of the Locomotive while heading back south? With all the rules and policies the FRA is happy to enforce, and especially after the Chatsworth incident showing just how much damage can occur between a heavy freight and passenger train, I would be surprised to hear of it.

Although, it would be pretty fun to get a very unique "cab ride" of sorts!

The PV is BEHIND the loco (it may be between the loco and the rest of the consist or, at the very rear of the train.. Between LA and San Diego, southbound Surfliners are in pull mode - the loco leads.
So, yes, passengers are in the car but, you will not be getting a "cab ride".

[jis]

The Overland Trail is commonly entrained behind the loco for the northbound (pull) to SLO and remains there for the push back south to L.A.

Are passengers allowed in the car when it is in front of the Locomotive while heading back south? With all the rules and policies the FRA is happy to enforce, and especially after the Chatsworth incident showing just how much damage can occur between a heavy freight and passenger train, I would be surprised to hear of it.

Although, it would be pretty fun to get a very unique "cab ride" of sorts!

The PV is BEHIND the loco (it may be between the loco and the rest of the consist or, at the very rear of the train.. Between LA and San Diego, southbound Surfliners are in pull mode - the loco leads.
So, yes, passengers are in the car but, you will not be getting a "cab ride".

Right. If the PV is HEP cabled then it can be between the loco and the rest of the train in the pull mode. Otherwise it has to be at the end of the train.

In the Push mode, unless the PV is both HEP cabled and train-lined it cannot be placed between the loco and the cab car. So it has to be placed behind the loco.

Edited by jis, 07 May 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[PerRock]

While not specifically PV. Whenever Amtrak's Office Cars appear on the Wolverine they run a just pull service (and Wye somewhere).

peter

[FrensicPic]

From a "day trip" I did in February...PV dome car "Silver Spendor" being coupled to the locomotive for the return to Los Angeles from San Diego. The Pacific Surfliner operates in push mode when northbound. We were pulled behind the loco while the main consist was ahead of the loco and controlled from the cab car. The cars I've been on are wired for both HEP and MU.

http://www.flickr.co...57629499903951/

John

Los Angeles

[zephyr17]

The Overland Trail is commonly entrained behind the loco for the northbound (pull) to SLO and remains there for the push back south to L.A.

Are passengers allowed in the car when it is in front of the Locomotive while heading back south? With all the rules and policies the FRA is happy to enforce, and especially after the Chatsworth incident showing just how much damage can occur between a heavy freight and passenger train, I would be surprised to hear of it.

Although, it would be pretty fun to get a very unique "cab ride" of sorts!

The PV is BEHIND the loco (it may be between the loco and the rest of the consist or, at the very rear of the train.. Between LA and San Diego, southbound Surfliners are in pull mode - the loco leads.
So, yes, passengers are in the car but, you will not be getting a "cab ride".

Right. If the PV is HEP cabled then it can be between the loco and the rest of the train in the pull mode. Otherwise it has to be at the end of the train.

In the Push mode, unless the PV is both HEP cabled and train-lined it cannot be placed between the loco and the cab car. So it has to be placed behind the loco.

I thought Amtrak now required all private cars to have at least HEP pass-through cables, even if the cars themselves didn't use HEP. MU lines aren't required, though.

Edited by zephyr17, 04 October 2012 - 07:37 PM.