32 replies to this topic

[AlanB]

Stop posting.

What, and see Amtrak just keep on doing the same old? Don't you want to see more trains? What kind of rail fan are you?

And yet you yourself want to keep using old technology in the form of an AEM-7.

The AEM-7 is not old. It can operate at 125 MPH. That is the third fastest type of Amtrak locomotive, behind Acela locomotives and HHP-8s. It is also electric.

The AEM-7's were built between 1979 & 1988. That makes them as young as 23 years old and as old as 32 years old. Thirty years for a locomotive is getting old, especially for ones that have been run into the ground like the AEM-7's. They haven't been given tender loving care, like say the old steam locomotives that still pull excursion trains today in the US.

This is why Amtrak already has under construction the replacements for the AEM-7's. They'll begin arriving in 2013, perhaps 1 will even show up for testing late next year.

[AlanB]

MBTA's Providence/Stoughton line already provides quite a bit of service to the Providence airport, and improvements are underway to extend the line to Wickford Junction which should be open in 2012. Rhode Island is also funding an extension to this (which would probably be its own service called South County Commuter Rail) as far as Westerly which could connect to an extension of Connecticut's Shore line East commuter rail from New London which would provide continuous public transit from northern Massachusetts as far as Newark, Delaware, and if Maryland extends MARC up to Newark, you'll have non-Amtrak transit as far as Fredericksburg, VA.
Also, the existing MBTA equipment can already do 100mph I think with single diesels. This is also the segment of the Northeast Corridor that lets the Acela reach 150mph so excessively slower commuter trains would just slow it and the 125mph Regionals down more than they already do. Also, AEM-7s are no longer produced, you'd need with something based off of NJT's ALP-46a, or the new Amtrak locomotive, ACS-64 unless you want to buy used ALP-44s from NJT or used AEM-7s from Amtrak once they start retiring them.

A better extension of MARC is to Wilmington and shorten Newark-bound SEPTA trains to that station. MARC will stop at Churchman's Crossing between Newark and Wilmington.

What a silly idea, make all those commuters from Philly to Newark changes trains now in Wilmington. Railfans are supposed to be advocating for things to make the trains better; not worse! Making people change trains when it isn't necessary makes things worse.

[MattW]

Newark to Baltimore and D.C. is already approaching the upper limit between commuter rail and regional rail (which I guess you could argue it is, just with mostly commuter-oriented service) whereas Newark to Philly is well within traditional commuting radius.

[jis]

It is more likely that DelDOT will extend its contract service with SEPTA to Perryville than MARC extending its service to Newark DE. Newark is an absolute godawful place to try to turn trains of two different systems. Perryville has room to do so.

[Anderson]

I hate to ask this, and I know there are a pile of problems with it, but is there some way that the NEC commuter operations, at least on each side of Philly, could be consolidated at some point? NYC, Philly, and DC all make for very logical splits in commuter services, and arguably Baltimore could do so as well (though I can't speak to the capability of Baltimore Penn Station or any other facility to handle this sort of a split). But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.

Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.

[jis]

Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.

Surely you mean Penn Central, since at the creation of Conrail all passenger service was transferred to state agencies, and NEC was transferred to Amtrak, all as a result of the 3R Act. So Conrail never ran any commuter service. [As pointed out by Anderson the preceding sentence is incorrect. Conrail ran commuter service between the 3R and the 4R acts. I stand corrected - jis] The PC [and Conrail and even post Conrail for a few years] operations of course, from a railfan perspective, was the closest thing to heaven I suppose. Lots of variety, lots of regular failures and on and on. And besides there were GG-1 humming along all over the corridor and NJCL too. And they were pulling those Jersey Builder - ex Empire builder cars around too!

Those laments mostly come from those that did not have the incredible pleasure and honor of experiencing PC service. pre-PC yes, some of them were pretty good.

Besides, by the time PC was operating commuter service, they were already partly funded by the States involved, and of course at the south end of NEC there was much less local service, and MARC and VRE were still years away. The idea of creating something called Amtrak Commuter was mooted and not followed through.

Edited by jis, 18 November 2011 - 09:02 AM.

[amamba]

But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.

But from a commuting perspective the system is logical. If you are commuting into Philly, you take Septa (or Patco). If you are commuting to NYC, you take NJT (at least in NJ). South jersey is full of bedroom communities and people that work in Philly and they need to get to work somehow! Trenton is almost a line that somewhat demarcates the state and for which city the NJ residents feel more connected with.

I grew up in south jersey and I can't tell you how much it annoys me when I tell people I am from NJ and they just assume I grew up right outside of NYC.

[the_traveler]

And besides there were GG-1 humming along all over the corridor

I never heard Eric humming!

[Anderson]

Then again, I'm reminded of more than one lament I've heard for Conrail's handling of the commuter operations in the NE being better than what came after.

Surely you mean Penn Central, since at the creation of Conrail all passenger service was transferred to state agencies, and NEC was transferred to Amtrak, all as a result of the 3R Act. So Conrail never ran any commuter service. The PC operations of course, from a railfan perspective, was the closest thing to heaven I suppose. Lots of variety, lots of regular failures and on and on. And besides there were GG-1 humming along all over the corridor and NJCL too.

Those laments mostly come from those that did not have the incredible pleasure and honor of experiencing PC service. pre-PC yes, some of them were pretty good.

Besides, by the time PC was operating commuter service, they were already partly funded by the States involved, and of course at the south end of NEC there was much less local service, and MARC and VRE were still years away. The idea of creating something called Amtrak Commuter was mooted and not followed through.

My understanding is that Conrail kept the PC's commuter operations for 7 years (1976-1983) before dumping them to the states (at which point things basically went to hell...at least per my understanding of SEPTA in particular). Amtrak got control of the Corridor in the late 1970s, but I'm pretty sure Conrail was still handling a lot of commuter operations until the 1980s.

By the way, what do you mean by "railfan heaven" involving "lots of regular failures"? Are you referring to forced equipment swaps making for fun photos, or something else?

[jis]

My understanding is that Conrail kept the PC's commuter operations for 7 years (1976-1983) before dumping them to the states (at which point things basically went to hell...at least per my understanding of SEPTA in particular). Amtrak got control of the Corridor in the late 1970s, but I'm pretty sure Conrail was still handling a lot of commuter operations until the 1980s.

You're right of course. My bad. But I don't think people who used the system saw much of a difference. It was the same disaster tat continued, since the obvious necessary trimming of the system was not carried out in the Conrail era either.

In the early 80's in the waning days of Conrail passenger service I rode the NJCL so called Jersey Builder consist on a Bay Head - New York train complete with the tradition power swap at South Amboy. It was adequate, and from a railfan perspective interesting, but in terms of reliability and basic comforts equipment that came later was much better and tended to be more predictable. So at least in the parts where I rode trains back then, I cannot agree that anything went to hell after Conrail. Actually the rebuilding of a viable and sustainable commuter service infrastructure, at least in NJ did not begin until NJT took over.

Actually post Conrail and PC when the state agencies took over and significant funding came by to replace equipment and fixed assets service improved markedly. The transition period was dicey.

By the way, what do you mean by "railfan heaven" involving "lots of regular failures"? Are you referring to forced equipment swaps making for fun photos, or something else?

Yes. It was fun for the railfans. Not so much for the users who had to live with ill maintained rolling stock, non-working AC etc. etc. 70's are a more or less forgettable era when quality of service is considered. All that can be said is "we had a commuter service in the NY area tat sort of worked". One thing is true though that considerable amount of marginal service which carried as few as a dozen passenger at times continued through that era, and were promptly chopped off when the real cost vs. benefit was considered upon takeover by the state. Victims of those cuts were the West Trenton and Phillipsburg service in NJ.

But then again it is also true that Conrail itself did not do much real consolidation before the early 80s. It started doing route reduction in right earnest after the 4R act and finally became profitable. In the 70s Conrail continued to bleed money. It was only after L Stanley Crane took over Conrail that the necessary painful steps were taken to get it to profitability.

Edited by jis, 18 November 2011 - 08:52 AM.

[jis]

But it seems a bit funky to have splits like the SEPTA/NJT split of NEC mainline services, not to mention probably being a waste of equipment and a passenger inconvenience. The split between Baltimore and Philly (and the consequent lack of commuter service over part of the line) makes more sense as there's a gap between the metro areas (you see the same thing between New Haven and Providence to some extent), but it's still a shame that there's not more coordination and that state lines keep getting in the way.

But from a commuting perspective the system is logical. If you are commuting into Philly, you take Septa (or Patco). If you are commuting to NYC, you take NJT (at least in NJ). South jersey is full of bedroom communities and people that work in Philly and they need to get to work somehow! Trenton is almost a line that somewhat demarcates the state and for which city the NJ residents feel more connected with.

One more thing that people seem not to realize is that the traffic pattern is such that it would be a phenomenal waste to run every 10 and 12 car New York to Trenton train, which pretty much empty out by the time they pass Hamilton, all the way to Philly on an hourly basis all through the day. There is way less traffic between Trenton and Philly than there is between Trenton and New York. It would make sense for PA and NJ to come to an agreement to run the equivalent of the erstwhile Clockers during rush hours, but during off peak it just does not work too well.

If this were Europe, they'd simply unhitch the fist two cars of a ten car train at Trenton and run them through to Philly. But such modern operating practices are well beyond the capability of NJT and SEPTA unfortunately.

[Shawn Ryu]

I dont see what is wrong with NJ Transit terminating at Trenton and allowing people to then transfer to SEPTA and travel all the way down to Philadelphia.

There are still pretty good numbers of people commuting from Trenton to NYC and vice versa.