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PATH Extensions


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#1 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 02:24 PM

The Port Authority Trans Hudson or PATH connects Newark and Jersey City to NYC. But there should be extensions made. One should be to extend the PATH to Grand Central from it's current Terminus at 34 Street- Herald Square. It would go up to 39 Street and go from north to east. then at Park Avenue, it will turn left to get to Grand Central. Also Hoboken bound trains will be extended to Cliffside Pak with new stations at Stevens Institute of Technology, Washington Park, 22 Street, Union City, West New York, Guttenburg, 79 Street, Fairviev, then Cliffside Park. Also the line from 34 Street to Journal Square will be extended to Newark Airport and obviously Grand Central.

#2 AlanB

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 02:54 PM

The Port Authority Trans Hudson or PATH connects Newark and Jersey City to NYC. But there should be extensions made. One should be to extend the PATH to Grand Central from it's current Terminus at 34 Street- Herald Square. It would go up to 39 Street and go from north to east. then at Park Avenue, it will turn left to get to Grand Central.


No amount of money can ever make this possible. You'd have to destroy the 6th Avenue subway line and the Broadway line in order to extend past 33rd Street where PATH currently ends.

The 6th Avenue line local tracks run right alongside PATH, preventing it from turning prior to reaching 33rd Street; the 6th Ave express tracks run under PATH, preventing it from digging deeper to avoid the station at 33rd Street. And you can't just build north on the current level, as that would destroy most of the subway/path stations.
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#3 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:01 PM


The Port Authority Trans Hudson or PATH connects Newark and Jersey City to NYC. But there should be extensions made. One should be to extend the PATH to Grand Central from it's current Terminus at 34 Street- Herald Square. It would go up to 39 Street and go from north to east. then at Park Avenue, it will turn left to get to Grand Central.


No amount of money can ever make this possible. You'd have to destroy the 6th Avenue subway line and the Broadway line in order to extend past 33rd Street where PATH currently ends.

The 6th Avenue line local tracks run right alongside PATH, preventing it from turning prior to reaching 33rd Street; the 6th Ave express tracks run under PATH, preventing it from digging deeper to avoid the station at 33rd Street. And you can't just build north on the current level, as that would destroy most of the subway/path stations.


No, the express tracks are at the same level as the local trains on the 6 Avenue line at 34 Street-Herald Square so the extension is serviceable

#4 AlanB

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:08 PM



The Port Authority Trans Hudson or PATH connects Newark and Jersey City to NYC. But there should be extensions made. One should be to extend the PATH to Grand Central from it's current Terminus at 34 Street- Herald Square. It would go up to 39 Street and go from north to east. then at Park Avenue, it will turn left to get to Grand Central.


No amount of money can ever make this possible. You'd have to destroy the 6th Avenue subway line and the Broadway line in order to extend past 33rd Street where PATH currently ends.

The 6th Avenue line local tracks run right alongside PATH, preventing it from turning prior to reaching 33rd Street; the 6th Ave express tracks run under PATH, preventing it from digging deeper to avoid the station at 33rd Street. And you can't just build north on the current level, as that would destroy most of the subway/path stations.


No, the express tracks are at the same level as the local trains on the 6 Avenue line at 34 Street-Herald Square so the extension is serviceable


Yes, they are at the same level at 34th Street. They come up from below as PATH ends at 33rd Street, technically it's 32nd Street where the PATH tracks end, the station is between 32nd & 33rd Streets. The Broadway line comes crosses over the 6th Avenue tracks at 34th Street and that along with the stations, prevents PATH from running above the 6th Avenue line.
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#5 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:05 PM

The PATH would remain at the same level if extended to Grand Central so it won't affect the stupid subway

#6 AlanB

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:40 PM

The PATH would remain at the same level if extended to Grand Central so it won't affect the stupid subway


If a PATH train comes into 33rd Street at 60 MPH and fails to apply its brakes, it will plow right through the PATH station first and then subway station!

So any extension of PATH would also have to go right through the subway station, mezzanine level of the station. That would severely impact the ability to get to both the Broadway line & the 6th Avenue line.

There is no way to extend PATH north from 33rd Street without impacting the subway. It simply cannot be done!
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#7 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:43 PM

So make a steep drop so it doesn't hit the subway.

#8 AlanB

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:51 PM

So make a steep drop so it doesn't hit the subway.


You can't!

As I mentioned earlier, the 6th Avenue express tracks run below the PATH tracks, any drop would cut the express tracks. And you can't turn left or right to clear the express tracks, before dropping, since the 6th Ave local tracks are on the same level outside the PATH tracks.

In other words, PATH is in the normal space where the express tracks would go. PATH was built long before the 6th Avenue line. So when they built the subway, they put the local tracks alongside PATH at the same level, and then they tunneled under the PATH tracks for the Express tracks.

PATH is 100% boxed in and there is no way to fix that without a major rebuilding of the 6th Avenue subway.
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#9 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:02 PM

So do it. Then until the change is complete, 6 avenue line subways will run on the 8 avenue line.

#10 Tracktwentynine

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:35 PM


So make a steep drop so it doesn't hit the subway.


You can't!

As I mentioned earlier, the 6th Avenue express tracks run below the PATH tracks, any drop would cut the express tracks. And you can't turn left or right to clear the express tracks, before dropping, since the 6th Ave local tracks are on the same level outside the PATH tracks.

In other words, PATH is in the normal space where the express tracks would go. PATH was built long before the 6th Avenue line. So when they built the subway, they put the local tracks alongside PATH at the same level, and then they tunneled under the PATH tracks for the Express tracks.

PATH is 100% boxed in and there is no way to fix that without a major rebuilding of the 6th Avenue subway.


Alan, stop digging. USrail21 is absolutely convinced that you could extend PATH to Bombay without going under an ocean. You can't convince him. I can't convince him. Nobody can convince him. He does not want to hear that he is wrong. He doesn't even think he is capable of being wrong. If you suggest (even using fact) that he is wrong, he will just think you're an idiot.

The best resolution for this problem is to ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored of suggesting harebrained ideas that no one even pays attention to, and he'll go bother people on some other forum. Probably, he'll bash NASA for not yet having an elevator to Mars or maybe Delta for their lack of regularly scheduled service to Antarctica. Or something like that.

Just. Ignore. Him.

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#11 AlanB

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:42 PM

So do it. Then until the change is complete, 6 avenue line subways will run on the 8 avenue line.


Sure, let's close down one of the busiest subway lines in the city and inconvenience thousands just so you can extend PATH to someplace that it doesn't need to go. Not to mention all the other obstacles in the way of sending it over to GCT even after you solve the problems at 33rd Street. And we're doing all of this with money that no one has.

There are probably at least a dozen other far more practical projects that we should be currently building that we don't even have money for.
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#12 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:56 PM


So do it. Then until the change is complete, 6 avenue line subways will run on the 8 avenue line.


Sure, let's close down one of the busiest subway lines in the city and inconvenience thousands just so you can extend PATH to someplace that it doesn't need to go. Not to mention all the other obstacles in the way of sending it over to GCT even after you solve the problems at 33rd Street. And we're doing all of this with money that no one has.

There are probably at least a dozen other far more practical projects that we should be currently building that we don't even have money for.


The 6 Avenue subway won't close permanently, just temporary to reconstruct it so PATH can go to Grand Central. It is necessary because Grand Central is a major transit hub and it looks like a serviceable extension according to Google Maps. And what other problems are present with the Grand Central extension.

#13 AlanB

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:57 PM



So do it. Then until the change is complete, 6 avenue line subways will run on the 8 avenue line.


Sure, let's close down one of the busiest subway lines in the city and inconvenience thousands just so you can extend PATH to someplace that it doesn't need to go. Not to mention all the other obstacles in the way of sending it over to GCT even after you solve the problems at 33rd Street. And we're doing all of this with money that no one has.

There are probably at least a dozen other far more practical projects that we should be currently building that we don't even have money for.


The 6 Avenue subway won't close permanently, just temporary to reconstruct it so PATH can go to Grand Central. It is necessary because Grand Central is a major transit hub and it looks like a serviceable extension according to Google Maps. And what other problems are present with the Grand Central extension.


Google maps is the worst possible way to decide what can or cannot be done with a subway, since Google Maps doesn't see underground.

Let's work our way through this. First we have the street. One level below the street we have the PATH tracks, the PATH station, and the Subway station at 34th Street. One level below that we have the Broadway line that crosses 6th Avenue. Then one level below that is the 6th Avenue line. There is no place to move the 6th Avenue line to get it out of the way.

As for other problems, when you get to Grand Central you have the Park Avenue tunnel, the Lexington Avenue line, the #7 line, and the Times Square-GCT tunnel all in the way. If you come up 5th Avenue to 42nd Street, you can't get to GCT because of the #7 & Shuttle. Same with coming up 6th & Madison Ave's. Can't come up Park Avenue because both the Park Ave tunnel and the Lexington Avenue line run under Park Ave. I also believe that there is a water main in the way which can't be moved.

If anything every goes to GCT, and it is a very big IF, it will be a cross town commuter connection between NYP & GCT. PATH isn't going to GCT ever! It's too hard, too costly, and it make no sense to try to get it there.
Alan,

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#14 Guest_USrail21_*

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 11:40 AM




So do it. Then until the change is complete, 6 avenue line subways will run on the 8 avenue line.


Sure, let's close down one of the busiest subway lines in the city and inconvenience thousands just so you can extend PATH to someplace that it doesn't need to go. Not to mention all the other obstacles in the way of sending it over to GCT even after you solve the problems at 33rd Street. And we're doing all of this with money that no one has.

There are probably at least a dozen other far more practical projects that we should be currently building that we don't even have money for.


The 6 Avenue subway won't close permanently, just temporary to reconstruct it so PATH can go to Grand Central. It is necessary because Grand Central is a major transit hub and it looks like a serviceable extension according to Google Maps. And what other problems are present with the Grand Central extension.


Google maps is the worst possible way to decide what can or cannot be done with a subway, since Google Maps doesn't see underground.

Let's work our way through this. First we have the street. One level below the street we have the PATH tracks, the PATH station, and the Subway station at 34th Street. One level below that we have the Broadway line that crosses 6th Avenue. Then one level below that is the 6th Avenue line. There is no place to move the 6th Avenue line to get it out of the way.

As for other problems, when you get to Grand Central you have the Park Avenue tunnel, the Lexington Avenue line, the #7 line, and the Times Square-GCT tunnel all in the way. If you come up 5th Avenue to 42nd Street, you can't get to GCT because of the #7 & Shuttle. Same with coming up 6th & Madison Ave's. Can't come up Park Avenue because both the Park Ave tunnel and the Lexington Avenue line run under Park Ave. I also believe that there is a water main in the way which can't be moved.

If anything every goes to GCT, and it is a very big IF, it will be a cross town commuter connection between NYP & GCT. PATH isn't going to GCT ever! It's too hard, too costly, and it make no sense to try to get it there.


No, when my proposed PATH goes to Grand Central, it goes under 39 Street after diverging from 6 Avenue. Then it runs under Park Avenue until it reaches Grand Central. Won't interfere with the Lex. subway because it will run beneath it and terminates before the express tracks descend under the local tracks.

#15 AlanB

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:25 PM



The 6 Avenue subway won't close permanently, just temporary to reconstruct it so PATH can go to Grand Central. It is necessary because Grand Central is a major transit hub and it looks like a serviceable extension according to Google Maps. And what other problems are present with the Grand Central extension.


Google maps is the worst possible way to decide what can or cannot be done with a subway, since Google Maps doesn't see underground.

Let's work our way through this. First we have the street. One level below the street we have the PATH tracks, the PATH station, and the Subway station at 34th Street. One level below that we have the Broadway line that crosses 6th Avenue. Then one level below that is the 6th Avenue line. There is no place to move the 6th Avenue line to get it out of the way.

As for other problems, when you get to Grand Central you have the Park Avenue tunnel, the Lexington Avenue line, the #7 line, and the Times Square-GCT tunnel all in the way. If you come up 5th Avenue to 42nd Street, you can't get to GCT because of the #7 & Shuttle. Same with coming up 6th & Madison Ave's. Can't come up Park Avenue because both the Park Ave tunnel and the Lexington Avenue line run under Park Ave. I also believe that there is a water main in the way which can't be moved.

If anything every goes to GCT, and it is a very big IF, it will be a cross town commuter connection between NYP & GCT. PATH isn't going to GCT ever! It's too hard, too costly, and it make no sense to try to get it there.


No, when my proposed PATH goes to Grand Central, it goes under 39 Street after diverging from 6 Avenue. Then it runs under Park Avenue until it reaches Grand Central. Won't interfere with the Lex. subway because it will run beneath it and terminates before the express tracks descend under the local tracks.


First, the express tracks don't go under the local tracks until after the Lex line transitions from Park Avenue to Lexington. So if, and that's a big IF, PATH were to run under Park Avenue then it wouldn't matter what the express tracks do.

Next, you still have to deal with the TS Shuttle & the #7 line plus the LIRR tail tracks that will run under Park Avenue.

Then there still remains the nearly impossible task of getting through the morass of train tunnels and stations at 34th Street. I forgot that in addition to the 6th Avenue line & the Broadway line, you've also got to avoid the Amtrak tunnels under 32nd & 33rd Streets as they cross 6th Avenue on their way to link up with the East River tunnels.

There is simply way too much infrastructure under that area from 31st Street to 34th Street to get PATH pushed through . It is pure fantasy to think that it can be done!

However, if one were to seriously consider it necessary to get PATH up near GCT; then the correct answer would be to throw your idea out the window and instead tap into PATH down at 9th Street where it turns onto 6th Avenue. At 9th Street it would be much easier to put in a switch and alternate trains between running up 6th Avenue to 33rd Street and running further east before turning north to GCT or the GCT area at least.

One idea that has been tossed around, although still full of major problems, is to build across town and link it up with the #6 local. Still very unlikely, but something that could actually be considered were money unlimited and if all the transit agencies could play nicely together and if a few other major hurdles were overcome. This idea, unlike yours, could at least physically happen even though it wouldn't be easy.

But there is no way to get PATH to run further north from the current terminus at 33rd Street. It is simply not possible to squeeze another subway through that area.
Alan,

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#16 jis

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:41 PM

One idea that has been tossed around, although still full of major problems, is to build across town and link it up with the #6 local. Still very unlikely, but something that could actually be considered were money unlimited and if all the transit agencies could play nicely together and if a few other major hurdles were overcome. This idea, unlike yours, could at least physically happen even though it wouldn't be easy.

But there is no way to get PATH to run further north from the current terminus at 33rd Street. It is simply not possible to squeeze another subway through that area.

A more technically feasible connection between PATH and Lex Subway was at WTC/Fulton St. complex and was considered during the reconstruction after the 9/11 destruction. But neither MTA nor PATH wanted to have anything to do with it.

It is unrealistic to even imagine that PATH will be allowed to disrupt any subway line in Manhattan while they try to construct any extension, not to mention disrupting surface around Herald Square. Just won't happen. It can be fearlessly stated that PATH will never go north of its 33rd St. terminus.

In general, the only tunneling that has any prayer of coming to reality under Manhattan are very deep tubes which disrupt no existing infrastructure. And PATH ain't one of those.

Edited by jis, 14 November 2011 - 07:41 PM.




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