#7(10) service disruption

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anir dendroica

OBS Chief
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Jan 2, 2009
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EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Actually, train 27 will operate thru to Portland. Currently expecting an 11:50 arrival into Spokane, WA.
 
How does that work? Are there enough spare cars in Portland to make up an on-time #28 today?

Mark
No, there weren't enough buses available in the area to bus the entire amount of passengers and turn the whole train around in Spokane. Thus, the 27 section ran thru and is going to be arriving and then departing Portland very late today.
 
so that will make for an incredibly late 8/28(12)departure from spokane? it could be 18-24 hours late into chicago. amtrak needs to figure something out. i don't know what but it seems like the administration of a transport company(amtrak)would be responsible for something other than the what has been delivered by the eb. yes, they have had terrible luck but they are, after all, a transportation company with big bucks excecutives who don't seem to be dealing effectively with the problems of the eb
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
 
How does that work? Are there enough spare cars in Portland to make up an on-time #28 today?

Mark
No, there weren't enough buses available in the area to bus the entire amount of passengers and turn the whole train around in Spokane. Thus, the 27 section ran thru and is going to be arriving and then departing Portland very late today.
But as noted elsewhere, it takes less time to turn & clean the Portland section than it does the Seattle section. Therefore, if you can't bus everyone it makes sense to run the Portland section rather than the Seattle section so that you don't delay things more than you have to.
 
so that will make for an incredibly late 8/28(12)departure from spokane? it could be 18-24 hours late into chicago. amtrak needs to figure something out. i don't know what but it seems like the administration of a transport company(amtrak)would be responsible for something other than the what has been delivered by the eb. yes, they have had terrible luck but they are, after all, a transportation company with big bucks excecutives who don't seem to be dealing effectively with the problems of the eb
What would you have the executives do? :unsure:

They don't have enough equipment to add a spare consist that would allow the trains to overnight in Seattle & Portland. So really the only choices are, cancel service which is not an ideal choice or run late which while not ideal either, is better than total cancellation.
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
I guess if there was, they would behave better.
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
I guess if there was, they would behave better.
I'd be happy if Amtrak could just withhold payment for that run, or at least some portion of the payment for that run.

However, with the new teeth given to the FRA in 2008, the FRA can start fining host RR's for excessive, repeated delays not caused by accidents or natural disasters. I don't believe that Amtrak gets any portion of those fines, but at least it's making the freight RR's take notice and working to avoid being fined.
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
I guess if there was, they would behave better.
I'd be happy if Amtrak could just withhold payment for that run, or at least some portion of the payment for that run.

However, with the new teeth given to the FRA in 2008, the FRA can start fining host RR's for excessive, repeated delays not caused by accidents or natural disasters. I don't believe that Amtrak gets any portion of those fines, but at least it's making the freight RR's take notice and working to avoid being fined.
I'm sure that BNSF broke that knuckle on purpose just to annoy Amtrak. Just threaten them with having to pay Amtrak, and I bet there will never be another broken knuckle (sarcasm).

The desire to punish the railroads for anything and everything ("intentional or not") is kind of funny this week. A recent CZ - 5(6) - arrived in Emeryville with not one but two freight locomotives on the head end. It seems to me that both the BNSF and the UP went the extra mile to get Amtrak through when Amtrak's own equipment failed. So, by all means, let's hammer them for something like a broken knuckle. Maybe the next time yet another P42 goes belly-up, the BNSF and the UP would find that all their power was needed and they would tell Amtrak to go pound sand.
 
EB #7(10) shows a service disruption; delayed by a grain train with a broken coupler knuckle west of Havre, MT; 7 hours late at Whitefish; terminating at Spokane with passengers bussed onwards.

Today's #8(12) will originate from Spokane, with passengers bussed from PDX/SEA.

Info thanks to Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group.

Mark
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
I guess if there was, they would behave better.
I'd be happy if Amtrak could just withhold payment for that run, or at least some portion of the payment for that run.

However, with the new teeth given to the FRA in 2008, the FRA can start fining host RR's for excessive, repeated delays not caused by accidents or natural disasters. I don't believe that Amtrak gets any portion of those fines, but at least it's making the freight RR's take notice and working to avoid being fined.
I'm sure that BNSF broke that knuckle on purpose just to annoy Amtrak. Just threaten them with having to pay Amtrak, and I bet there will never be another broken knuckle (sarcasm).

The desire to punish the railroads for anything and everything ("intentional or not") is kind of funny this week. A recent CZ - 5(6) - arrived in Emeryville with not one but two freight locomotives on the head end. It seems to me that both the BNSF and the UP went the extra mile to get Amtrak through when Amtrak's own equipment failed. So, by all means, let's hammer them for something like a broken knuckle. Maybe the next time yet another P42 goes belly-up, the BNSF and the UP would find that all their power was needed and they would tell Amtrak to go pound sand.
No punishment intended. Quid pro quo is. We agree that it needs to be reciprocal.
 
so that will make for an incredibly late 8/28(12)departure from spokane? it could be 18-24 hours late into chicago. amtrak needs to figure something out. i don't know what but it seems like the administration of a transport company(amtrak)would be responsible for something other than the what has been delivered by the eb. yes, they have had terrible luck but they are, after all, a transportation company with big bucks excecutives who don't seem to be dealing effectively with the problems of the eb
What would you have the executives do? :unsure:

They don't have enough equipment to add a spare consist that would allow the trains to overnight in Seattle & Portland. So really the only choices are, cancel service which is not an ideal choice or run late which while not ideal either, is better than total cancellation.
at the very least, management should post a prominent service advisory that those travelling on the eb are very, very likely to be significantly delayed and that those connecting with other trains will, in all probability, miss their connections. customers holding tickets should be notified, well in advance, of the problems and have their options explained to them.
 
Here is a question I have not heard asked before. The freight lines own the tracks. They charge Amtrak for track usage rights. Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers? :huh:
Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
I guess if there was, they would behave better.
I'd be happy if Amtrak could just withhold payment for that run, or at least some portion of the payment for that run.

However, with the new teeth given to the FRA in 2008, the FRA can start fining host RR's for excessive, repeated delays not caused by accidents or natural disasters. I don't believe that Amtrak gets any portion of those fines, but at least it's making the freight RR's take notice and working to avoid being fined.
I'm sure that BNSF broke that knuckle on purpose just to annoy Amtrak. Just threaten them with having to pay Amtrak, and I bet there will never be another broken knuckle (sarcasm).

The desire to punish the railroads for anything and everything ("intentional or not") is kind of funny this week. A recent CZ - 5(6) - arrived in Emeryville with not one but two freight locomotives on the head end. It seems to me that both the BNSF and the UP went the extra mile to get Amtrak through when Amtrak's own equipment failed. So, by all means, let's hammer them for something like a broken knuckle. Maybe the next time yet another P42 goes belly-up, the BNSF and the UP would find that all their power was needed and they would tell Amtrak to go pound sand.
While I suppose that I could have been clearer, is a broken knuckle not something that happens by accident? I mean after all it's not like they plan for one and say "this knuckle will break on August 5th at 2:45 PM."

Yes, this topic started because of a broken knuckle, but I would hope that my stating that "accidents & natural disasters" are not to be included as grounds for penalizing the host RR would indicate that I wasn't looking for penalities for small things. And neither is the FRA, they're looking for systemic problems like UP used to do to Amtrak a few years back with the Sunset & the Coast Starlight.
 
While I suppose that I could have been clearer, is a broken knuckle not something that happens by accident? I mean after all it's not like they plan for one and say "this knuckle will break on August 5th at 2:45 PM."

Yes, this topic started because of a broken knuckle, but I would hope that my stating that "accidents & natural disasters" are not to be included as grounds for penalizing the host RR would indicate that I wasn't looking for penalities for small things. And neither is the FRA, they're looking for systemic problems like UP used to do to Amtrak a few years back with the Sunset & the Coast Starlight.
But, Alan, you clearly stated that Amtrak should be compensated for accidents, derailments and other incidents similar to that which impacted #7(10).

The OP asked:

Is Amtrak compensated when a freight train failure or derailment blocks or delays an Amtrak track slot and delays or cancels the Amtrak train, costing Amtrak fares or guaranteed connection payments to passengers?
You replied:

Sadly, no, Amtrak is not compensated when the freight company causes a problem that delays Amtrak, intentional or not.
The OP replied back:

I guess if there was, they would behave better.
Then you replied:

I'd be happy if Amtrak could just withhold payment for that run, or at least some portion of the payment for that run.
That pretty clearly stated that you thought issues like the broken knuckle that impacted #7(10) should be grounds for Amtrak holding back payments to the freight railroad. If now, in reflection, you think that statement went too far, that's fine. But, that is what you said, and if you meant what you said, I disagree with you.
 
Ok, I guess I wasn't clear enough. In my mind I was responding more to the loss of time slot than the broken knuckle issue, but didn't make that clear enough. Sorry! :(
 
It seems to me that both the BNSF and the UP went the extra mile to get Amtrak through when Amtrak's own equipment failed. So, by all means, let's hammer them for something like a broken knuckle. Maybe the next time yet another P42 goes belly-up, the BNSF and the UP would find that all their power was needed and they would tell Amtrak to go pound sand.
Ain’t gonna happen. The host RR is more than happy to bring out power to clear their lines. They can’t leave an inoperable train out there. They just send the bill to Amtrak. They sure as heck are not doing it for free, or out of the kindness of their heart…..if Union Pacific even has a heart or soul.
 
I travel the EB on a regular basis and sadly the delays--due almost entirely to freight trains now--have gotten to the point that the delays into Chicago almost always make any connections at Union Station impossible to meet--I just arrived on 8-11--7 hours late and everyone missed their connections. Today's EB #8 is also going to be around 7 hours late. The conductor on the EB said that the average delays have been 4-8 hours for most trains for months now. Fortunately the floods are mostly a non-event now, but the reality of playing second fiddle to BNSF Freight traffic needs to be acknowledged. Why doesn't Amtrak just bite the bullet and build this "new reality of waiting for freights" into their schedules?

A friend of mine who works for BNSF said that BNSF was playing "hardball" with Amtrak now when it came to traffic management, since time was money for every freight.
 
I travel the EB on a regular basis and sadly the delays--due almost entirely to freight trains now--have gotten to the point that the delays into Chicago almost always make any connections at Union Station impossible to meet--I just arrived on 8-11--7 hours late and everyone missed their connections. Today's EB #8 is also going to be around 7 hours late. The conductor on the EB said that the average delays have been 4-8 hours for most trains for months now. Fortunately the floods are mostly a non-event now, but the reality of playing second fiddle to BNSF Freight traffic needs to be acknowledged. Why doesn't Amtrak just bite the bullet and build this "new reality of waiting for freights" into their schedules?
Because the problems are temporary and changing the schedule breaks every connection. If Amtrak had the extra equipment, the best thing that they could do would be to add an extra consist to the rotation, such that the incoming trains to the westcoast would now overnight and be ready for an ontime departure.

A friend of mine who works for BNSF said that BNSF was playing "hardball" with Amtrak now when it came to traffic management, since time was money for every freight.
That would be a first for BNSF, as they've consistantly been one of the best host RR's to Amtrak. It would also put them in line for penalties from the FRA if indeed they were doing something like that.

However, this all comes back to the floods. Yes, the floods may be over, but they're still recovering from the damage done by the various floods. That is forcing BNSF to run things more slowly, which in turn is causing the problems. BNSF is currenly running less freight overall right now than they were say 3 to 5 years ago, yet they weren't having any problems getting Amtrak through on time back then.

And BNSF isn't causing any problems for Amtrak either on the Southwest Chief either, a route unaffected by flooding.

So I don't believe that BNSF has suddenly changed their policy for Amtrak to a policy that will get them in trouble with the FRA and trigger heavy fines.
 
I travel the EB on a regular basis and sadly the delays--due almost entirely to freight trains now--have gotten to the point that the delays into Chicago almost always make any connections at Union Station impossible to meet--I just arrived on 8-11--7 hours late and everyone missed their connections. Today's EB #8 is also going to be around 7 hours late. The conductor on the EB said that the average delays have been 4-8 hours for most trains for months now. Fortunately the floods are mostly a non-event now, but the reality of playing second fiddle to BNSF Freight traffic needs to be acknowledged. Why doesn't Amtrak just bite the bullet and build this "new reality of waiting for freights" into their schedules?
Because the problems are temporary and changing the schedule breaks every connection. If Amtrak had the extra equipment, the best thing that they could do would be to add an extra consist to the rotation, such that the incoming trains to the westcoast would now overnight and be ready for an ontime departure.

A friend of mine who works for BNSF said that BNSF was playing "hardball" with Amtrak now when it came to traffic management, since time was money for every freight.
That would be a first for BNSF, as they've consistantly been one of the best host RR's to Amtrak. It would also put them in line for penalties from the FRA if indeed they were doing something like that.

However, this all comes back to the floods. Yes, the floods may be over, but they're still recovering from the damage done by the various floods. That is forcing BNSF to run things more slowly, which in turn is causing the problems. BNSF is currenly running less freight overall right now than they were say 3 to 5 years ago, yet they weren't having any problems getting Amtrak through on time back then.

And BNSF isn't causing any problems for Amtrak either on the Southwest Chief either, a route unaffected by flooding.

So I don't believe that BNSF has suddenly changed their policy for Amtrak to a policy that will get them in trouble with the FRA and trigger heavy fines.
Well, the reality of the tardy trains on both coasts for the EB are there for no one to deny-sadly. Today's eastbound EB will again be over 6 hours late into Chicago. The floods are for the most part gone along the EB's route--we even clicked along at a decent speed thru the Devil's Lake area on 8-11, which was a pleasant surprise, so the natural disaster issue is behind them (and BNSF hardly uses that Sub at all). So, why the frequent delays for freights now along the hi-line? I stopped counting after 12 delays to allow freights to pass us by on my latest trip on 8-11. I can only report and observe what I see for the EB. Since I live in Whitefish, MT and keep close tabs on the progress (or lack thereof) of the EB via the area's tourism related businesses the facts are clear that the EB's tardiness has not changed even after the flooding ceased. You raise a good question--why, with BNSF moving modestly less freight than several years ago (when the EB ran on time most of the time) is this train late so often? What is the catalyst that has caused these lengthy delays and what will it take to resolve them to get the EB back on a schedule that people can rely upon?
 
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Well, the reality of the tardy trains on both coasts for the EB are there for no one to deny-sadly. Today's eastbound EB will again be over 6 hours late into Chicago. The floods are for the most part gone along the EB's route--we even clicked along at a decent speed thru the Devil's Lake area on 8-11, which was a pleasant surprise, so the natural disaster issue is behind them (and BNSF hardly uses that Sub at all). So, why the frequent delays for freights now along the hi-line? I stopped counting after 12 delays to allow freights to pass us by on my latest trip on 8-11. I can only report and observe what I see for the EB. Since I live in Whitefish, MT and keep close tabs on the progress (or lack thereof) of the EB via the area's tourism related businesses the facts are clear that the EB's tardiness has not changed even after the flooding ceased. You raise a good question--why, with BNSF moving modestly less freight than several years ago (when the EB ran on time most of the time) is this train late so often? What is the catalyst that has caused these lengthy delays and what will it take to resolve them to get the EB back on a schedule that people can rely upon?
Just because the flood waters have receded doesn’t mean that you can just get on the tracks and highball. Although lines may be open, they could still have slow orders or speed restrictions due to damage and displacement. As far as getting put in the hole for passing freights, we do have to remember that BNSF’s primary purpose is running freight, and they need to do that to stay in business. This does not give them the excuse to constantly delay Amtrak, but I am willing to cut them some slack for a month or so due to a very costly Spring and Summer that they had little control over. UP, although the bane of my existence, is fighting the same battle.
 
Well, the reality of the tardy trains on both coasts for the EB are there for no one to deny-sadly. Today's eastbound EB will again be over 6 hours late into Chicago. The floods are for the most part gone along the EB's route--we even clicked along at a decent speed thru the Devil's Lake area on 8-11, which was a pleasant surprise, so the natural disaster issue is behind them (and BNSF hardly uses that Sub at all). So, why the frequent delays for freights now along the hi-line? I stopped counting after 12 delays to allow freights to pass us by on my latest trip on 8-11. I can only report and observe what I see for the EB. Since I live in Whitefish, MT and keep close tabs on the progress (or lack thereof) of the EB via the area's tourism related businesses the facts are clear that the EB's tardiness has not changed even after the flooding ceased. You raise a good question--why, with BNSF moving modestly less freight than several years ago (when the EB ran on time most of the time) is this train late so often? What is the catalyst that has caused these lengthy delays and what will it take to resolve them to get the EB back on a schedule that people can rely upon?
Just because the flood waters have receded doesn’t mean that you can just get on the tracks and highball. Although lines may be open, they could still have slow orders or speed restrictions due to damage and displacement. As far as getting put in the hole for passing freights, we do have to remember that BNSF’s primary purpose is running freight, and they need to do that to stay in business. This does not give them the excuse to constantly delay Amtrak, but I am willing to cut them some slack for a month or so due to a very costly Spring and Summer that they had little control over. UP, although the bane of my existence, is fighting the same battle.
Ah, if this was just for a month or so none of us would be having this discussion. EB #8 is over 9 hours late this AM BTW. We shall see how long this continues. My experience on the EB on 8-11 was unremarkable in every aspect-speedwise-except for the freight issues and the attendants and conductors were the ones who mentioned that the delays for the freights were indeed an issue. I am not implying that track maintenance, slow orders never cause delays, just not sufficient to cause the overall journey to end up being 6 hours late. We all are aware that sufficient time was built into the schedule to handle having to pull over for an occasional freight or perhaps some weather delays over the course of the entire route (I have been 90 minutes late halfway thru my trips before and still arrived in WFH on time), but the delays now being experienced go above and beyond the normal travel delays experienced in the past. I travel on the EB again next week and will see how things go then.
 
Ah, if this was just for a month or so none of us would be having this discussion. EB #8 is over 9 hours late this AM BTW. We shall see how long this continues.
But it is just a month, actually not even yet. Amtrak restored service on July 17th eastbound and July 18th westbound. And that was after massive amounts of damage were done to the tracks too. Entire sections of track were totally washed away and had to be replaced by BNSF. When that happens it takes a while, I'm not sure just what the rules are, but I'm betting that you have to have slow orders for at least 2 or 3 weeks if not longer.

Even now one still cannot book a ticket to Minot because of the damage, although that is more to the station & platforms than the tracks.

But the point remains is that there was huge amounts of damage done to the infrastructure along the line and BNSF is only just now starting to recover from that. Hampering their efforts is the fact that they're also having to deal with flooding along the Missouri River too. So crews that could have been sent north to help are busy further south raising tracks & repairing things.
 
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