Florida HSR Funds Sought

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The press release from US DOT on the new round of submitting applications for the $2.4 billion can be found at http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2011/dot2911.html

The Notice of Funding Availability and other documents can be found at http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/477.shtml

There is a total of $2.43 billion available, split from 2 pots: $1.63 billion of stimulus money which does not require state matching and $800 million of FY2010 money which requires at least 20% state matching. The applications are not to directed toward either account, the FRA will make the decision how the two funds are to be allocated. So states do not have to provide matching funds, but state matching will be a factor in the evaluation of the applications.

So states now have to hurry up, update and in some cases, probably restructure their applications, and get them in by April 4. By opening the process to a new round of applications, the NEC may benefit from being able to submit projects that were not eligible when the stimulus applications were submitted in 2009. Will be interesting to see who submits applications, for which projects and for how much.
 
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I hope Virginia sticks in an application, either for the planned improvements to train service to Hampton Roads (I've looked through the EIS on it...though they picked what might well be the worst option of the considered alternatives [not to mention an alternative that would probably have been better, if more expensive on the capital investment side, being discarded outright], it's a decent use of the money.

Of course, I really hope they upgrade to CTC on the WAS-NYP corridor with this slug.
 
Of course, I really hope they upgrade to CTC on the WAS-NYP corridor with this slug.
Huh? :unsure:

NEC has had CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) known as CETC, for at least 20 years now except in a few short segments, the only remaining one being Doc, around Newark, which is being transferred to CETC as we speak, schedule to be completed by this summer. And getting ACSES on the southerns half is more or less fully funded through Amtrak and earlier grants already I believe.

OTOH, if you mean Constant Tension Catenary, I suspect there will be no application for that in this round.

I suspect there may be an application for funding the Portal replacement based on the original NJ State application in a previous round.

Moderator's Note: The URLs provided by afigg above don't work please replace the two URL's by the following respectively:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/roa/press_releases/fp_DOT%2029-11.shtml

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/477.shtml

And when done, please remove this part of this post.

Thanks.
 
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Sigh, I wish Texas would apply for this to be the first leg of our own HSR system SAS-AUS being the first leg with dedicated, electrified track.

Sadly I doubt we could get the money even if we wanted it, which is not the case. :(

In that case split it between CA and the NEC

Americans need to see what European/Japanese style HSR can look like in the country... Then maybe the rest will finally demand the same.
 
I know for a fact that NY State is applying for several projects on the Empire Corridor and I know that NJ is applying for Portal Bridge replacement in collaboration with Amtrak, positioned as an enabler (and a part of) for the Gateway Proposal. Fortunately there is a design ready and EIS already done for the Portal bridge replacement by NJT, and they can just polish up their previous application for the same and submit it again. Of course, just for fun LaHood could give a grant from the 80/20 part of the pot and watch Christie sweat it for the 20 to get the 80. As I said just for laughs. :)
 
jls,

I meant Constant Tension Catenary. And...that's a shame, given that it really is low-hanging fruit in terms of trip time improvement.
 
jls,

I meant Constant Tension Catenary. And...that's a shame, given that it really is low-hanging fruit in terms of trip time improvement.
Low hanging fruit if you consider a several billion dollar upgrade low hanging. Conversion of the old PRR catenary to constant tension would not be cheap or, considering it has to be done accommodating traffic, fast.
 
jls,

I meant Constant Tension Catenary. And...that's a shame, given that it really is low-hanging fruit in terms of trip time improvement.
Low hanging fruit if you consider a several billion dollar upgrade low hanging. Conversion of the old PRR catenary to constant tension would not be cheap or, considering it has to be done accommodating traffic, fast.
I thought it was only $500 million for each NYP-PHL and PHL-WAS or somewhere in that ballpark according to the master plan (or somesuch documentation)?
 
Sure. And it only woulda cost $6 billion to build the Deep Cavern Terminal in New York. You know, the one where it was cancelled because there were fears that the price might exceed 14.6 billion or some such like that.
 
Well, I've got to ask: If the master plan numbers are too low, where are the better numbers to be found?
The real numbers can be estimated by any engineer who has ever worked with catenary and has ever worked with Amtrak. Estimates in the "Master Plan" are for political consumption. $1 billion to completely rebuild the NYP-WAS catenary might not even pay for the copper wires. There will be structure replacements (some structures are pushing 100 years old, the youngest are 75 years old, and many are not suitable for constant tension no matter what condition). Each replacement structure is about $200k and there are potentially over 5000 of them. Every insulator and every piece of catenary hardware will have to be replaced, and a lot of that stuff is custom work. And. last but not least, the work will have to be staged to maintain rail traffic for both Amtrak and the commuter tenants. Many work windows will be late night, short, and inefficient (with the added pleasure of having promised work windows cancelled at the last minute leaving expensive work crews with nothing to do for the night). My somewhat educated guess: the $2.4 billion rejected by Florida would just about do the trick for constant tension catenary, plus it would take at least five years to complete (probably more like ten years, but call me an optimist).

Here's an example of a political estimate verses the real cost: the New Haven to Boston electrification project was originally estimated and sold at a cost of $300 million. The final cost was $800 million. As Amtrak people repeatedly told me, "we don't do anything cheap." That's a fact they and I know all too well.
 
Here's an example of a political estimate verses the real cost: the New Haven to Boston electrification project was originally estimated and sold at a cost of $300 million. The final cost was $800 million. As Amtrak people repeatedly told me, "we don't do anything cheap." That's a fact they and I know all too well.
Heh... the darned thing appears to be more over-engineered than the LGV electrification for 220mph! :lol:

Well they are finally completing the third track electrification through the Boston trench.

Just curious, were those two numbers stated in same year dollars or different year dollars, and in either case, which year?
 
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I thought it was only $500 million for each NYP-PHL and PHL-WAS or somewhere in that ballpark according to the master plan (or somesuch documentation)?
The NEC Infrastructure Master plan documents lists in the New York-Washington Program of Improvements table (pg 38) "Constant Tension Catenary (High-Speed Territory)" as costing $1,000 million or 1 billion. The question is how many miles of the NYP-WAS route are considered to be in the "High Speed" territory? Doesn't say. Were they just referencing the short 130 mph section in MD-DE and the straight 135 mph sections in NJ or would this include additional high speed sections after other improvements, maybe to much of the Baltimore-Wilmington segment? But, obviously $1 billion is not for putting up constant tension catenary over the entire NYP-WAS route.

As pointed out, the biggest challenge is replacing the catenary on a busy corridor. Goes double for the 2 or 3 track sections that already considered to be bottlenecks.

BTW, the biggest ticket item in the NYP-WAS Trip-time improvements list is $2 billion for the northern Maryland bridge replacements and track capacity upgrade which includes replacing the Susquehanna, Bush, and Gunpowder river bridges. The $2 billion is likely nothing more than a placeholder number.
 
News reports are starting to come in on what projects and how much the states will be applying for the Florida HSR reallocations.

The California HSR Authority will ask for $1.2 billion to make the first phase of the HSR corridor extend from Merced to Fresno to Bakersfield. See http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2011/03/28/1828719/high-speed-rail-first-phase-could.html.

Massachusetts will be asking for $110 million to replace the Merrimack River bridge in Haverhill which the Downeaster and MBTA use. Interesting choice. See http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/03/27/mass_vies_for_rail_funds_spurned_by_fla_governor/.
 
Sure. And it only woulda cost $6 billion to build the Deep Cavern Terminal in New York. You know, the one where it was cancelled because there were fears that the price might exceed 14.6 billion or some such like that.
This thing was the rail equivalent of the Boston "Big Dig" I would be surprised if the $14.6B would have even been enough by the time evarybody got their cut and all the changes and additions were plugged in.
 
Al Engel mentioned the other day that Amtrak and NJDOT/NJTransit are applying for funds to replace the Portal Swing Bridge across Hackensack River on the NEC, with a high level (50' high) fixed three span Network Tied Arch bridge as per design completed by NJTransit last year.
 
Here's an example of a political estimate verses the real cost: the New Haven to Boston electrification project was originally estimated and sold at a cost of $300 million. The final cost was $800 million. As Amtrak people repeatedly told me, "we don't do anything cheap." That's a fact they and I know all too well.
There are some interesting issues with these numbers. The NHV - BOS electrification numbers actually include some considerable amounts that have precious little to do with electrification, but are ornaments that are typically hung on the Christmas tree. From all reports I have seen, the actual electrification cost was something like $3 million (2010 USD) (around $2.4 million 2000) per route mile of double track + additional deltas for triple and 4th track, with Boston South Station eating up a huge chunk. They actually managed to not even complete the entire project while they were at it. A good ballpark figure for US is about $3 million per route mile for double track, and that is green field electrification.

Now for NEC South, apparently they are not planning to do wholesale conversion to Constant Tension. They will do only the high speed tracks, which I think means any track with MAS of greater than 110mph. In addition they will do some cheaper modification for tracks with more than 80mph speed limits having to do with using some special cables with lower coefficient of expansion or some such. That is all I have been able to dig out so far. They already have a design in hand for the Constant Tension conversion, which I am told can be done with minimal disruption a track at a time in short segments. And yes, they are also not contemplating conversion to 60Hz any time soon.

Next time I get to see Amtrak NEC HSR guys is on April 8th at TransAction, and I will try to probe some more.
 
Al Engel mentioned the other day that Amtrak and NJDOT/NJTransit are applying for funds to replace the Portal Swing Bridge across Hackensack River on the NEC, with a high level (50' high) fixed three span Network Tied Arch bridge as per design completed by NJTransit last year.
I get confused with what is the story with the funding status for the north Portal bridge replacement project. The whole ARC project would not work without the Portal Bridge replacements, so was it funded or not? I've seen something that Amtrak was going to put up $250 million over the construction period from it's own capital budget, but that might have been assuming Amtrak got such and such capital funding amounts each year. Since this is as much a transit project as intercity rail, because NJT Transit needs a new high level bridge there just as much as Amtrak, whether LaHood could award some funding from the $3 billion of FTA money that was to go to the ARC project.

More info is coming in on other applications for the Florida HSR funds:

Wisconsin - Gov. Walker with a unexpected twist - will be applying for $150 million for upgrades and to buy 2 new trainsets for the Hiawatha service.

Missouri - in a rather bold move, will be applying for $363 million for the Kansas City to St. Louis River Runner service and $600 million to plan, design, and acquire land for a new Kansas City to St. Louis HSR line. Very long odds on getting anything more than some initial planning money for the HSR proposal. The River Runner route might get more money, but not $363 million.

Maryland - this was from several weeks ago, but MD will be applying for about $250 million to replace the BWI airport station and add 9 miles of a 4th track going through the station; and $200 million for planning and engineering to replace the Bush, Gunpowder and Susquehanna river bridges. The BWI airport 4th track which would go east of the eastern platform is identified as a near term NEC improvement project in the NEC Master Plan and one that would reduce NYP-WAS trip times by up to 2 minutes. See http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-03-15/news/bs-md-rail-funds-20110315_1_high-speed-rail-bwi-station-rick-scott.
 
Missouri - in a rather bold move, will be applying for $363 million for the Kansas City to St. Louis River Runner service and $600 million to plan, design, and acquire land for a new Kansas City to St. Louis HSR line. Very long odds on getting anything more than some initial planning money for the HSR proposal. The River Runner route might get more money, but not $363 million.
That's right. 220-MPH electric service to connect with the proposed STL-SPI-CHM-CHI 220-MPH service! It may be a pipe dream, but it's a really sweet pipe dream.

Personally, though, I think instead of getting faster speeds, we need to add new service in our state, and to do so we need to start working out plans with our neighbours. I'm glad we've got such a good partnership with Illinois, but we need more. With Oklahoma's cooperation we can build a St. Louis-Rolla-Springfield-Joplin-Tulsa-Oklahoma City line. With Iowa and Minnesota we can build Kansas City-St. Joseph-Omaha and Kansas City-Des Moines-Ames-Albert Lea-Minneapolis-Duluth/Superior. With Illinois and Indiana we can build St. Louis-Effingham-Terre Haute-Indianapolis. All of these are possible with existing freight lines which currently run at 55-65 MPH, and which (except for the Ozarks line) with minimal improvements can hit 79 MPH. The Ozarks alignment will require quite a few upgrades due to the geography, but it does have population on its side. The third-, fifth-, and sixth- largest metro areas in Missouri (Springfield, Joplin, and Rolla, respectively) are located along the route (the MORR already serves #1, St. Louis; #2, Kansas City; and #4, Columbia/Jefferson City). In addition, the second- and third-largest universities in the state are along that route (Missouri State, in Springfield; and Missouri Science & Technology, in Rolla; respectively). So the greater cost would be justified by the much higher potential for ridership.

To be clear, I'm not complaining in the least. I'm glad to see the River Runner doing so well, and I will welcome greater speed and frequency. My poin is that the success of the River Runner proves that the time has come for us to connect all of Missouri's major cities by rail.
 
Now we know what Amtrak is asking for from the Florida HSR funds - $1.3 billion total for the NEC.

Amtrak has posted a press release at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249224538367&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_ATK-11-040_AmtrakSeeks.pdf.

"AMTRAK SEEKS $1.3 BILLION FOR GATEWAY PROJECT AND NEXT-GENERATION HIGH-SPEED RAIL ON NEC"

"Portal Bridge, Hudson River Tunnels, NY Penn Station among projects"

The projects are:

$570 million for the Portal Bridge North replacement for Amtrak, NJ kicking in up to $150 million for $720 million total

$188 million for PE and EIS for Gateway project for 2 new tunnels under Hudson river with related infrastructure improvements

$50 million for PE and EIS for Penn Station south facility

$450 million for upgrades between Philly and NYP for "Power, Signal, and Catenary and Track Improvements" for speed increase to 160 mph. Obviously constant tension catenary on the high speed sections in NJ

$15 million for PE and EIS for Pelham Bay Bridge replacement and evaluate track upgrades for a 5 mile stretch south of the bride for higher speeds
 
Found some more state application info for the Florida HSR fund do-over:

CT: reportedly $100 million for New Haven to Springfield corridor. CT only got $120 million of the $220 million applied for in their FY2010 application so this would complete their previous request amount.

New York: $517 million total for 8 projects

$294.7 million for 2 mile bypass route at Harold interlocking to avoid conflicts with LIRR and reduce delays on NEC trains going to/from Boston.

$49.8 million for phase 2 design of Moynihan station

$112 million for new signal system from Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie

$18.6 million for replacing 48 miles of Hudson signal system from Poughkeepsie and Albany

$35.4 for final phase 4th track construction at Rensselaer station

$4.1 million for track and platform upgrades at Schenectady station

$1.4 million for PE for Rochester intermodal station

$1.75 million for Niagara Falls high-speed rail and maintenance facility.

The bypass at Harold interlocking in Queens is interesting because I don't think I have seen it mentioned before. Is there a engineering study on this? The $112 million for the new signal system from Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie sounds like it should be a Metro-North application for transit funds, not HSIPR.

News summary at Transportation Nation: http://transportationnation.org/2011/04/04/ny-governor-andrew-cuomo-applying-for-high-speed-rail/ titled "Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced he is seeking approximately $517 million in federal funding for eight projects that advance New York’s high-speed rail plans."

RI: $31 million total

$25 million for 3rd track at Kingston station for Acela and Amtrak bypass traffic

$6 million for studies including TF Green Airport station

WA: $120 million for Cascades corridor projects

Vermont: $80 million for western corridor track upgrades for Ethan Allan re-route.
 
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