53 Billion more for railway projects

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Just-Thinking-51

Very bored and cranky pundit
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Per the Washinghton Post (The Adminstration plans on spending 53 billion over the next 6 years for high speed and intercity rail projects.)

Problem was this quote ("Amtrak's Soviet-style train system is not the way to provide modern and efficient passenger rail service," Mica added.)

Nice...

Edit for big finger issue
 
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I wonder what Rep. Mica thinks about our Soviet-style highway system? Or our Soviet-style airport and traffic control system.
 
I would love to ask Rep. Mica what exactly he means by that, but I suspect that (much like calling people a "Socialist!") it has little basis in actual reality.
I seem to recall Rep. Mica referring to Amtrak as a "Soviet-style" railroad in years past as well.
 
I didn't see a WP link but you can read the story here...

$53 billion might sound absolutely massive at first glance, but it's actually tiny compared to the $450 - $600 billion China will be spending over the next four years.

Like clockwork the GOP is already out with a nearly instantaneous condemnation of the proposal.

House Transportation Committee Chairman John L. Mica (R-Fla.) and Railroads Subcommittee Chairman Bill Shuster (R-Pa.) both expressed skepticism about the plan. "This is like giving Bernie Madoff another chance at handling your investment portfolio," Mica said in a statement.
"With the first $10.5 billion in administration rail grants, we found that...

1) the Federal Railroad Administration is neither a capable grant agency, nor should it be involved in the selection of projects,

2) what the administration touted as high-speed rail ended up as embarrassing snail-speed trains to nowhere, and

3) Amtrak hijacked 76 of the 78 projects, most of them costly and some already rejected by state agencies.

Amtrak's Soviet-style train system is not the way to provide modern and efficient passenger rail service," Mica added.
 
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I didn't see a WP link but you can read the story here...

$53 billion might sound absolutely massive at first glance, but it's actually tiny compared to the $450 - $600 billion China will be spending over the next four years.

Like clockwork the GOP is already out with a nearly instantaneous condemnation of the proposal.

House Transportation Committee Chairman John L. Mica (R-Fla.) and Railroads Subcommittee Chairman Bill Shuster (R-Pa.) both expressed skepticism about the plan. "This is like giving Bernie Madoff another chance at handling your investment portfolio," Mica said in a statement.
This is really funny considering that the Republicans are being given another chance to run the House :)
 
Hmmmmmph, no money for the Northeast, I note. I think that if this had been a directed plan (NEC, California, Florida, Texas), there would have been no complaints from Mica. Instead, we have a propsal that spreads the money thin, to a lot of non-HSR train lines. California alone needs 20 more billion from the Feds. The NEC gets almost nothing. So, in a way, I can't blame Mica for complaining. Read the SNCF report on USA HSR to see where the money really should go. A 120 billion $ proposal which SNCF will pay half.
 
I also note that the Administration can propose whatever they please, but it is the Congress that writes the final draft of a Federal Budget. There is considerable outcry among some parties that we must reduce spending, even in the cases of defense, and Ag / Dairy subsidies. Those who wish this effort to come to fruition must be able to reach out and make common cause with other transit advocates, and advocates of other causes, if we wish to garner support for improved rail service. Living in Wisconsin, believe me when I say that the long knives are out & drawn, and targeting any projects that might be perceived as Obama legacies. Improved passenger rail service is one of those projects targeted for elimination.
 
I will believe it when I see it. <_< This system has become too politicized.
 
Living in Wisconsin, believe me when I say that the long knives are out & drawn, and targeting any projects that might be perceived as Obama legacies. Improved passenger rail service is one of those projects targeted for elimination.
Yeah, the irony of the last couple years is that by attempting to help Amtrak, Obama has inadvertently given government funded passenger rail the kiss of death in the eyes of the GOP. My guess is that the GOP wants Amtrak defunded more than Obama wants to save it, but time will tell.
 
Hmmmmmph, no money for the Northeast, I note. I think that if this had been a directed plan (NEC, California, Florida, Texas), there would have been no complaints from Mica. Instead, we have a propsal that spreads the money thin, to a lot of non-HSR train lines. California alone needs 20 more billion from the Feds. The NEC gets almost nothing. So, in a way, I can't blame Mica for complaining. Read the SNCF report on USA HSR to see where the money really should go. A 120 billion $ proposal which SNCF will pay half.
The funding is directed into general categories, not at a corridor. The NEC is the only active corridor that meets the "Core Express" criteria. The only other corridor projects that are anywhere near ready to receive more construction funding for dedicated electrified corridors with speeds of 125 to 250 mph are the California and Florida HSR projects. And the first leg of the Florida system is pretty much fully funded. So the NEC and California are likely to split the HSR funds, if this comes to pass, over the next 2-3 years.

It should be noted the proposed funding is split into 2 accounts: "For the first time, all high speed and intercity passenger rail programs will be consolidated into two new accounts: a $4 billion account for network development, focused on building new infrastructure, stations, and equipment; and a $4 billion account for system preservation and renewal, which will maintain state of good repair on Amtrak and other publicly-owned assets, bring stations into Americans with Disabilities Act compliance, and provide temporary operating support to crucial state corridors while the full system is being built and developed."

The second account looks to be aimed at the NEC and other Amtrak corridors. The first account goes to CA HSR, FL HSR, maybe the Southeast HSR plan and projects where new tracks and stations can be built operating seperately from the freight trains.

Will be very interesting to see how this plays out over the next 7-8 months. The political food fight is just getting started.
 
Living in Wisconsin, believe me when I say that the long knives are out & drawn, and targeting any projects that might be perceived as Obama legacies. Improved passenger rail service is one of those projects targeted for elimination.
Yeah, the irony of the last couple years is that by attempting to help Amtrak, Obama has inadvertently given government funded passenger rail the kiss of death in the eyes of the GOP. My guess is that the GOP wants Amtrak defunded more than Obama wants to save it, but time will tell.

Then I ask how we are to work around this opposition, and make certain that rail is spared while other programs (for example, the Mohair Commission) get cut. All we can do is to make our voices and points of view known, and counter the inaccuracies regarding rail when they inevitably appear.

To get some idea of just how strong the opposition is to improvement of passenger rail, go someplace such as Ace Of Spades HQ blog and see for yourself.
 
I would love to ask Rep. Mica what exactly he means by that, but I suspect that (much like calling people a "Socialist!") it has little basis in actual reality.
I seem to recall Rep. Mica referring to Amtrak as a "Soviet-style" railroad in years past as well.

Was that when he served on a certain committee with THAT Senator from WISCONSIN in the early 1950s? :unsure: :blink: :angry:

The reason I ask such a question is that the way the rhetoric in the new House leadership is going it seems as though Rep. Mica will next claim that he has a list of members of the communist party and memebers of a spy ring that are employed within Amtrak. :blink: :angry2: :wacko:

I begin to wonder if will he will really just settle for implying that only left wing Marxist types ride Federally financially assisted "Soviet-Style" passenger trains? :help:

The news here for me is that I never knew I was a lover of things Soviet! :ph34r: I thought I loved America!!! :wub:

(and for those who don't know the Senator from Wisconsin that I'm talking about, Google McCarthyism)
 
The use of "soviet-style" is interesting because it's extremely clear who that is targeted to, folks 40+ who grew up with the big bad soviet union as the prime example of what was wrong with the world.

But the soviet union has been gone for a pretty long time. And right now, communism = china, and they aren't exactly lined up for bread handouts and riding trains without seats or windows. People look to china and say "why can they do that and we can't".

So I don't know how much the soviet reference matters to voters 30 and younger. Someone born in 1981 was only 10 when the USSR disappeared, and most likely was more concerned with the ninja turtles than with communism.

Anyway, I thought the HSR curtain had come down already? Seems like Fred's limb was the wrong one.
 
Hmmmmmph, no money for the Northeast, I note. I think that if this had been a directed plan (NEC, California, Florida, Texas), there would have been no complaints from Mica. Instead, we have a propsal that spreads the money thin, to a lot of non-HSR train lines. California alone needs 20 more billion from the Feds. The NEC gets almost nothing. So, in a way, I can't blame Mica for complaining. Read the SNCF report on USA HSR to see where the money really should go. A 120 billion $ proposal which SNCF will pay half.
Well should anything ever come of this I would hope for a daily Sunset Limited, a long distance connection between Texas and Colorado, an extension of the HF to Kansas City and some corridor trains in the Texas Triangle(DFW, SAS, HOU) at any speed. 79mph would be a good start. That would be the bare minimum if anyone is really serious about a resurgance of passenger trains in this part of the country.
 
Hmmmmmph, no money for the Northeast, I note. I think that if this had been a directed plan (NEC, California, Florida, Texas), there would have been no complaints from Mica. Instead, we have a propsal that spreads the money thin, to a lot of non-HSR train lines. California alone needs 20 more billion from the Feds. The NEC gets almost nothing. So, in a way, I can't blame Mica for complaining. Read the SNCF report on USA HSR to see where the money really should go. A 120 billion $ proposal which SNCF will pay half.
Well should anything ever come of this I would hope for a daily Sunset Limited, a long distance connection between Texas and Colorado, an extension of the HF to Kansas City and some corridor trains in the Texas Triangle(DFW, SAS, HOU) at any speed. 79mph would be a good start. That would be the bare minimum if anyone is really serious about a resurgance of passenger trains in this part of the country.

Keep dreaming. 79 mph is a good start, (look at the Lychburg train), but politically unacceptable. Because, seriously, 79 mph, with station stops, is nowhere near high speed rail. That's an average speed of probably about 50 mph. That's good transportation, and probably competative with driving in urban areas (though not rural areas, where road congestion isn't really an issue), but it's a mockery of high-speed rail. If $53 billion went to projects like a Texas-Colorado train, that'd be a waste. I mean, you're probably looking at a billion, easy, to start that, and a single train a day, in competition with as much air capacity as that route, is nothing. High-speed rail dollars are an extremely precious resource right now, and any slip-up as to where they're spent might well seal the fate of high-speed rail in the US for decades to come. If the systems in California and Florida don't work (and I have this ominous sense that Florida's won't, not without expansion), not even a lot of Democrats would advocate spending more money on rail. HSR is in a bad position right now. To create a true system, you need to throw a lot of money at it. The Northeast Corridor alone could suck up the entire 53 billion and still need work to reach European/Asian standards. That's why we don't see more of those types of syatems, which have probably the greatest potential. But investing 53 billion in one 500-mile stretch of track is going to make the rest of the country's rail supporters extremely angry, and politically you can't afford that. That's why the first round of HSR grants went to a lot of projects, some not remotely resembling HSR. That doesn't mean it's a bad use of the money, but it means that a lot more marginal routes got funded. I have no doubt that rail to Madison, Wis. would have been successful, but the opponants absolutelyu had a point that spending 810 million for a hundred or so miles of track is perhaps not the best idea. It's ignoring a lot of evidence elsewhere, and there were huge amounts of political spin put on it, but it's the obvious gut reaction, especially since we haven't embarked on huge infrastructure programs like this in the recent past, and have nothing to compare it to. So HSR ends up with two options, neither of them great. You can create a smaller true high-speed system, or you can improve existing service and create new higher-speed service in a wider area, at the cost of being completely honest about it being high-speed. (of course, since when was honesty a requirement for holding a political office?) Both have drawbacks and advantages, and both can be completely fumbled. (an example of the latter option being disastrously handled: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/blogs/fred-frailey/archive/2011/02/06/high-speed-rail-in-need-of-a-break.aspx I'm appalled to see that two, just TWO, projects from the earlier HSR grants (in VERMONT and MAINE, are actually under construction, and that's with projects that were supposed to be shovel ready!!! :help: :help: :help: Honestly, it's bad when two of the states with the lowest population in the country are benefiting from this money). Assuming any of this 53 billion actually gets spent, there's going to have be a long, hard look taken at where it's spent. And I'm afraid, that with politicians in charge, it will be spent badly, and passenger rail in the US will have no fate but a long, slow death, becuase if this goes wrong, no politician who happens to like their job will utter the words "high speed rail" for the next several decades.
 
"Soviet-style train system?"

From my studies in history, I understand that the one good thing Stalin actually did was to make the trains run on time. So I would assume that Rep. Mica likes his trains late?

Someone needs to study some history...
 
So once Congress approves/disapproves/modifies the budget proposal, does it go back to the President for signature, or does it become law?
 
I'm still not happy how much the money is spread around. Give it all to three projects, California, NEC, and Chicago. Maybe get Texas off the ground. This follows the SNCF proposal nicely. And would garner Mica's support too, as it would all go to true HSR.
 
Well should anything ever come of this I would hope for a daily Sunset Limited, a long distance connection between Texas and Colorado, an extension of the HF to Kansas City and some corridor trains in the Texas Triangle(DFW, SAS, HOU) at any speed. 79mph would be a good start. That would be the bare minimum if anyone is really serious about a resurgance of passenger trains in this part of the country.
The HSR and intercity rail proposed funding is aimed at corridor services, not long distance (LD) trains. But a significant revival of corridor services should benefit LD trains. Faster corridor trip times, more stations, and more routes that LD trains can run over without being the only passenger train on the route, larger rail passenger base. But I expect the first few years of any revival will be concentrated in the Northeast and east coast down to NC, FL, the Mid-West states supporting passenger rail, the west coast states. Texas and the core red states are likely to resist the Obama administration push for HSR and passenger rail. Texas may get serious about the T-bone HSR plan, but it could take some years. A daily Sunset Limited, if Amtrak can get cooperation from UP, an extension of the Heartland Flyer, and maybe some limited corridor services are likely all the improvements you may see in Texas, but don't hold your breath for it.
 
Well should anything ever come of this I would hope for a daily Sunset Limited, a long distance connection between Texas and Colorado, an extension of the HF to Kansas City and some corridor trains in the Texas Triangle(DFW, SAS, HOU) at any speed. 79mph would be a good start. That would be the bare minimum if anyone is really serious about a resurgance of passenger trains in this part of the country.
The HSR and intercity rail proposed funding is aimed at corridor services, not long distance (LD) trains. But a significant revival of corridor services should benefit LD trains. Faster corridor trip times, more stations, and more routes that LD trains can run over without being the only passenger train on the route, larger rail passenger base. But I expect the first few years of any revival will be concentrated in the Northeast and east coast down to NC, FL, the Mid-West states supporting passenger rail, the west coast states. Texas and the core red states are likely to resist the Obama administration push for HSR and passenger rail. Texas may get serious about the T-bone HSR plan, but it could take some years. A daily Sunset Limited, if Amtrak can get cooperation from UP, an extension of the Heartland Flyer, and maybe some limited corridor services are likely all the improvements you may see in Texas, but don't hold your breath for it.
While I agree that there are a number of areas where HSR projects are necessary (FL is, IMHO, a good example of where such a project makes sense...enough of the population is in two areas (the East Coast/I-95 corridor and Orlampa) that a project makes sense there), the problem is getting folks to swallow the price tag, which is considerable to massive in different cases. I guess what I think needs to be managed, ultimately, is some sort of split in the definition of HSR: You need to expand the amount of Class 5-7 track in the system, and I consider that to be a higher priority than worrying about gobs and gobs of Class 8-9 track. Yes, you need some fancy "peacock" lines (in the sense that you show them off for the public, with no comment on their usefulness intended by the term), but I'd rather see "normal" trains get an extra 10 MPH on their average speed than see a few more express trains at 150 MPH.

In the long run, a standard 90-110 MPH line with decent CR ratio will be a candidate for upgrading to "real" HSR of 150 MPH, but I do worry that jumping straight to the HSR line invites a disaster if you don't have a good market to tap into (either in the form of an existing rail service or a place where you've got a decent amount of research to back up that one exists). There's always a chance of a misfire, true, but the more of an established market you have, the less likely you are to see a major disaster happen where a line opens up and you're stuck with a bunch of empty trains running after spending $5 billion to get the track.

What is probably important about Obama's plan is that he's spreading the money around so that it's not "just" the NEC and California getting the money. Doing that, notwithstanding public opinion on rail travel, just invites a nice mixture of Red vs. Blue and sectional squabbling. Not that we're likely to be spared that show anyway, but getting Texas and Florida on board would go a long way towards breaking up the straight "red state coalition". Also, as much as I hate to say it, but a Congressman who has only an LD train in his district has no real reason to support rail projects and every reason to complain. And let's face it: You're not going to get Cali HSR on California's votes alone.

FWIW, I think Atlanta-Washington is a valid market for some form of HSR, but you need to have trains making the Washington-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta run first. And yes, I think this could be paired in interesting ways with the Acela and, ultimately, with the Florida project (remember, the Silver Service is going to share Washington-Raleigh and I believe Orlando-Jacksonville with the new upgrades, and that's been one of Amtrak's steadier LD markets). Likewise, upgrades to the lines going east from Chicago will benefit the Capitol Limited and the Lake Shore Limited, at least in terms of running times (even if they don't get to go super fact, they'll get incremental improvements over segments of their routes), and you get that over more of the system if you focus on more lower-level upgrades than getting a new peacock.

JJJJ,

Thanks for reminding me of the irony that the major country in the world with purportedly the most left-wing social objectives in the world also currently has the "hardest" monetary policy of any country I know (albeit alongside Brazil, also ruled by a left-wing government...when did hard money banking policy become a hallmark of the left wing?).
 
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This is why I don't see HSR working in the U.S. Almost by definition, HSR can only work on a regional basis. This is fine in Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, as well as France, Germany, and most other European countries, but less practical in the United States, China or Russia. China still has largely a command economy and political infrastructure, so garnering popular support for HSR is less of an issue than it is in the U.S. (I'm not sure where Russia is going or planning to go with HSR.)

In the U.S., if HSR is to be funded on a federal level, money and political support for it must come from those who will not benefit from it (specifically, those who live in areas that will never see a high-speed train), which is much easier said than done. Outside of the NEC, California, Florida, Texas, and the areas within approximately 200 miles of Chicago are unlikely to ever be candidates for any kind of viable HSR service. But many Americans (and their elected representatives) who live in other parts of the country will also have to come on board and be willing to pony up billions of dollars to support this. I don't see that happening.
 
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