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What's unfortunate is that we should have to choose between a bad project and no project. It's like the NJ ARC tunnel. There are many better options that could have been done first.
 
rrdude said:
It's certainly not the best project, but killing another HSR project is not the answer GML
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The ARC tunnel is a project that not only died, but I personally helped kill. Among its wonderous virtues were: not providing any additional connectivity to anyone but the Bergen lines, adding up to thirty minutes to peoples commute times, providing a genuine safety hazard, not providing useful back up to the aging North River Tunnels, and costing far too much damned money. And increased capacity less than NJ Transit simply converting their Penn Station fleet into MU cars with fast access doors, (ex., MTA M8s) while removing platform obstructions, a project that would have cost perhaps $2 billion.

Had it been built it would have greatly crippled the overall NJ commuter rail system. It would have negatively impacted some commuters in convenience and would have greatly hampered commuters with respect to time, especially those on the Morris & Essex, Montclair-Boonton, and North Jersey Coast Line.

I would never, ever argue with a project that helped seriously improve transportation for large numbers of people, helped seriously improve the general image of mass transit in this country, or provide for improved overall service in our system.

As a project, the ARC tunnel, as it was on the day Christie shot it dead, needed to be killed. Because it represented a multi-billion dollar bullet being shot into the foot of New Jersey's public transportation system.

The Orlando to Tampa HSR couldn't gain as many riders as half the California system if every single person traveling between Tampa and Orlando chose to ride the train. I notice that there hasn't been too much objection to it. I'll tell you why, too. Wendell Cox and others of his ilk probably have wet dreams about this project being built. They couldn't ask for a better marshaling point than this project to derail passenger rail in this country in its entirety.

This project isn't a big step forward, or a regular step forward, or a small step forward, or even a standing in the same place. Its a step backward from an image and PR campaign standpoint. It is being built to fail. It is better for it to fail before it is built.

Edit: I don't know why it took me so long to think of this, but: It is possible somebody might infer my position is consistent with that of the Lackawanna Coalition. It is, to a point (and only to a point) about the ARC Tunnels. It does not share my opinion about the Orlando-Tampa High Speed Rail.

I am talking for myself, not the group for which I am a member.
 
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Being from the Tampa Area (Clearwater) & new to this, It is interesting to hear different views (some more interesting than other's, LOL
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!)
 
Green Maned Lion said:
not providing any additional connectivity to anyone but the Bergen lines, adding up to thirty minutes to peoples commute times, providing a genuine safety hazard,
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Malarkey!

Green Maned Lion said:
The Orlando to Tampa HSR couldn't gain as many riders as half the California system if every single person traveling between Tampa and Orlando chose to ride the train. I notice that there hasn't been too much objection to it. I'll tell you why, too. Wendell Cox and others of his ilk probably have wet dreams about this project being built. They couldn't ask for a better marshaling point than this project to derail passenger rail in this country in its entirety.
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The Tampa-Orlando HSR system isn't designed to carry as many riders as Cali; much less half. It also doesn't cost as much as Cali's will. In fact, it's a little less than $3B; while Cali's is estimated at $35B and it may well go higher.

Oddly, I haven't seen much of anything from Wendell of late. But some of the other's have already been heard from.
 
So what will Florida do? build some more 12 lane roads and put more cars on the road adding to rush hour congestion. Easy for the governors etc they don't drive in it they just fly around in a private yet and get a police escort to get them through the traffic jam. I bet that even if someone who had the money offered the state a check saying they would fund it the state would say get lost were not interested in HSR even if your paying for it.
 
I-4 between Orlando and Tampa is a mess. I think it would be a bigger mess if more lanes were added to the interstate. I hope we get the HSR, but with our new governor and anti-rail legislators, it does not look good.

BTW - Floridians seem to be married to their cars. :lol:
 
The article says that Florida taxpayers might not be on the hook for cost overruns and operations. It doesn't say they won't contribute the state match. That's a decision yet to be made.

However, while HSR will probably ultimately be profitable, I doubt it will be in its first year. Some support will have to be offered somewhere. We are talking an infant industry here.

The hypocrisy is expecting HSR to operate without subsidy when roads fail to do that and airlines need government bailouts. But HSR advocates keep saying that HSR makes profits all over the world, and it may come to bite them in the ass early on.
 
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A comment: It was neither the designers nor the builders, nor even operations part of White Star Lines that claimed that the Titanic was unsikable. It was some publicist / pitchman / salemen / promoter or groups of these people that said it. The ones that had any real relationship with the ship knew better. Anyone that thinks anything build by mankind is either indestructable or perfect is hallucinating.

When it comes to high speed rail: Neither the uninvolved or unrealistic opponents nor the publicists, unrealistic politicians, nor the unrealistic proponents will have it right. (Is unrealistic politicians a redundancy?)

Whether the initial ridership estimates are either higher or lower than than the initial ridership will really make no difference. The anti-rail people will find something wrong with them Yes, it will take time for people to change thier habits. Initial ridership will be quite a bit lower than it will be after 5 or more years.

Whether it is ultimately profitable or not will be as much based on what all gets hung onto it by the politicians than what should really be part of a practical operation.

In its own way, Florida's system has more ridership and profit potential than California. Due to the terrain and climate, it should be much cheaper to build and operate than the California system. No seismic zones, no mountain ranges, so no long tunnels and high bridges, and with their high proportion of retirees and out of state tourists, a ridership that should be greater than the population size and density would suggest to be likely. (Hiow many of these retirees are finding themselves with mobility, eyesight, physical impairment, or other issues that make driving either impractical or impossible and the normal airport hassles both daunting and exhausting? These people find themselves close to a take trains ro stay home situation.)
 
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One potential problem, Disney's free shuttle buses to and from the airport. They are heavily advertised by Disney and offered during the booking process. Last I heard, you check into your room at the airport and your baggage will be delivered to your hotel room. The coach ride is completely free and designed to keep you from renting a car and visiting other Orlando destinations. Mickey Mouse meets your children at the airport for Christ's sake. It's a loss for Disney to operate, but very, very effective. I can see this service, if continued, competing with high speed rail.
 
Unless they cut their nose of to spite their face, Disney will do what it takes to make the train to Disney World trip a good experience also. One of the major reasons the first go round of the Florida HSR died was that it had been thoroughly hijacked by Disney so as to make it inconvinent to go anywhere else in the Orlando area. At this point it lost much of its support and gave ammunition to the opponents. The concept's death at that point became the best achievable solution.
 
George Harris said:
(Hiow many of these retirees are finding themselves with mobility, eyesight, physical impairment, or other issues that make driving either impractical or impossible and the normal airport hassles both daunting and exhausting? These people find themselves close to a take trains ro stay home situation.)
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None of this has actually stopped them from driving, however, as Allstate, Geico, and others can probably tell you sulking into their vodka about it.
 
George Harris said:
Unless they cut their nose of to spite their face, Disney will do what it takes to make the train to Disney World trip a good experience also. One of the major reasons the first go round of the Florida HSR died was that it had been thoroughly hijacked by Disney so as to make it inconvinent to go anywhere else in the Orlando area. At this point it lost much of its support and gave ammunition to the opponents. The concept's death at that point became the best achievable solution.
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I agree with this guy: "quit lying, and quit showing pics of these 200-mph+ trains they use in Japan & Europe ... wanna see hi-speed' rail? run over to Ft Lauderdale to see that 'hi=speed' shuttle that runs up to WPB - anyway, put any rail initiative on the ballot, count results fairly - it'll fail for a 3rd time - and then put it to rest, bury this dinosaur, let it sleep with the fishes."

Florida needs to make up it's mind what it wants. It has HSR, Tri-rail, Metro rail, Sun rail and Amtrak. None of this is being coordinated. Each looks at it's territory as a stand alone entity. Orlando to Tampa is a short distance, less than 100 miles. Amtrak takes two hours to make this run. How much time do you want to save and what is it worth. Higher speed rail would work just as well and cost much less and it would help Amtrak also. My understanding of the HSR proposal is Amtrak would not be using it-what a waste. California went the same route hence the moniker 'train to nowhere'. They had no plans to run the current San Jouquins on the first segment thus speeding up their schedule. They were just going to let the track sit there or run the so called trains to no where as a demo. What are these people thinking? They aren't, that is the answer. It's a real shame because we are going to miss out on opportunities to build a good passenger rail system because of these boongoggles. I have ridden Europe's first class rail system and it works well. There the so called HSR segments are just integral parts of an overall system, not some stand alone prima donna. If we are ever to make any progress in this country then these projects need to be part of an overall system and plan, not some knee jerk project like Florida's. Personally, I have always thought of these groups as just a bunch of partying politicians feeding at the trough and putting out slick paper reports and fancy slide shows to justify their existance and continuing studies funded with taxpayer money. Now that they are faced with getting some real money and having to actually build something that works they are just lost. I hope their Governor kills it.
 
Um, I believe that California will now be running the San Joaquins at increased speed down the hew HSR test track before the HSR actually gets going full time.
 
MattW said:
Um, I believe that California will now be running the San Joaquins at increased speed down the hew HSR test track before the HSR actually gets going full time.
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Only because some people put the pressure on them. That wasn't the original plan. How stupid is that? What kind of a lack of common sense does it take to concoct a plan that doesn't take into account the current service?
 
daxomni said:
Maybe HSR should only be proposed for the dwindling numbers of deep-blue states from here on out?
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Wait for the Tea Party to have full influence. Like all hyper-anything, they will move people the heck back to the left. If the Democrats want to regain the House all they need to do is sponsor a Sarah Palin talk show.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
daxomni said:
Maybe HSR should only be proposed for the dwindling numbers of deep-blue states from here on out?
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Wait for the Tea Party to have full influence. Like all hyper-anything, they will move people the heck back to the left. If the Democrats want to regain the House all they need to do is sponsor a Sarah Palin talk show.
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Your probably right GML. If only we could just get some common sense people in government.
 
henryj said:
Green Maned Lion said:
daxomni said:
Maybe HSR should only be proposed for the dwindling numbers of deep-blue states from here on out?
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Wait for the Tea Party to have full influence. Like all hyper-anything, they will move people the heck back to the left. If the Democrats want to regain the House all they need to do is sponsor a Sarah Palin talk show.
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[You're] probably right GML. If only we could just get some common sense people in government.
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I honestly don't know about the country at large, but in the case of our federal government we've generally been moving to the right for as long as I can remember. ObamaCare of today is barely any more daring than the Republican health care initiatives/deflections of the 1990's, yet it was portrayed as if leftist guerrillas had written every page with the blood of capitalists. We are living in strange times where even self-identified populists are loudly demanding less help and fewer protections even as they and their families fall through larger and larger tears in our quickly eroding safety net. It's almost insane.
 
henryj said:
California went the same route hence the moniker 'train to nowhere'. They had no plans to run the current San Jouquins on the first segment thus speeding up their schedule. They were just going to let the track sit there or run the so called trains to no where as a demo. What are these people thinking? They aren't, that is the answer. It's a real shame because we are going to miss out on opportunities to build a good passenger rail system because of these boongoggles. I have ridden Europe's first class rail system and it works well. There the so called HSR segments are just integral parts of an overall system, not some stand alone prima donna. If we are ever to make any progress in this country then these projects need to be part of an overall system and plan, not some knee jerk project like Florida's.
MattW said:
Um, I believe that California will now be running the San Joaquins at increased speed down the hew HSR test track before the HSR actually gets going full time.
Click to expand...
Only because some people put the pressure on them. That wasn't the original plan. How stupid is that? What kind of a lack of common sense does it take to concoct a plan that doesn't take into account the current service?
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Henry: Five minutes of on line searching would put the lie to what you are saying.

First a quote from the FRA Criteria for selection:

The FRA requires that any rail project using ARRA funds be capable of demonstrating “operational independence”/ “independent utility” upon completion. A project is considered to have operational independence “if, upon being implemented, it will provide tangible and measurable benefits, even if no additional investments in the same service are made.” Examples of these benefits include “operational reliability improvements, travel‐time reductions, and additional service frequencies resulting in increased ridership.” In practice, this requirement means that the improvements can be used for existing or new intercity rail passenger operations, including Amtrak and other intercity service Importantly, such service is clearly specified as being “intercity service” as opposed to enhanced commuter rail service.
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The above is what lead to the selection of a segment in the Central Valley. The specific section was further refined in the following:

Board%20Meeting%20Agenda%20Item%203%20-%20Presentation%20on%20Selection%20of%20First%20Section%20-%20Appendix%20A[1].pdf

It would be very useful if you could put some knowledge behind your opinion.
 
George Harris said:
henryj said:
California went the same route hence the moniker 'train to nowhere'. They had no plans to run the current San Jouquins on the first segment thus speeding up their schedule. They were just going to let the track sit there or run the so called trains to no where as a demo. What are these people thinking? They aren't, that is the answer. It's a real shame because we are going to miss out on opportunities to build a good passenger rail system because of these boongoggles. I have ridden Europe's first class rail system and it works well. There the so called HSR segments are just integral parts of an overall system, not some stand alone prima donna. If we are ever to make any progress in this country then these projects need to be part of an overall system and plan, not some knee jerk project like Florida's.
MattW said:
Um, I believe that California will now be running the San Joaquins at increased speed down the hew HSR test track before the HSR actually gets going full time.
Click to expand...
Only because some people put the pressure on them. That wasn't the original plan. How stupid is that? What kind of a lack of common sense does it take to concoct a plan that doesn't take into account the current service?
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Henry: Five minutes of on line searching would put the lie to what you are saying.

First a quote from the FRA Criteria for selection:

The FRA requires that any rail project using ARRA funds be capable of demonstrating “operational independence”/ “independent utility” upon completion. A project is considered to have operational independence “if, upon being implemented, it will provide tangible and measurable benefits, even if no additional investments in the same service are made.” Examples of these benefits include “operational reliability improvements, travel‐time reductions, and additional service frequencies resulting in increased ridership.” In practice, this requirement means that the improvements can be used for existing or new intercity rail passenger operations, including Amtrak and other intercity service Importantly, such service is clearly specified as being “intercity service” as opposed to enhanced commuter rail service.
Click to expand...
The above is what lead to the selection of a segment in the Central Valley. The specific section was further refined in the following:

Board%20Meeting%20Agenda%20Item%203%20-%20Presentation%20on%20Selection%20of%20First%20Section%20-%20Appendix%20A[1].pdf

It would be very useful if you could put some knowledge behind your opinion.
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Well George, thank you for the lecture, but that is what I read on other sites and saw in the media. I really don't have the time to peruse every detail of the law as you apparently do. Obviously many thought otherwise as it got the nickname 'train to nowhere'. So I stand by what I said. When the interestate highways were built they were part of a grand plan. So even though they were built piece meal everyone knew what the plan was and acepted it. As each section was completed it was hooked into the existing highway system so you could actually drive on it and experience it even though the complete route was not finished. There is no such plan for high speed rail or passenger rail in general. There are web sites with pretty color maps but there is no overall plan as such. Maybe eventually there will be. Lets hope so.
 
henryj said:
Well George, thank you for the lecture, but that is what I read on other sites and saw in the media. I really don't have the time to peruse every detail of the law as you apparently do. Obviously many thought otherwise as it got the nickname 'train to nowhere'. So I stand by what I said. When the interestate highways were built they were part of a grand plan. So even though they were built piece meal everyone knew what the plan was and acepted it. As each section was completed it was hooked into the existing highway system so you could actually drive on it and experience it even though the complete route was not finished. There is no such plan for high speed rail or passenger rail in general. There are web sites with pretty color maps but there is no overall plan as such. Maybe eventually there will be. Lets hope so.
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Henry, George and I are generally on diametric opposite ends when it comes to politics, so it is probably interesting to look at the few places we generally do agree.

Newspapers aren't in the business of reporting news. They are in the business of selling newspapers. Train to nowhere? Sounds so damned cool, doesn't it? Its an HSR train going nowhere! EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT! AND THE ADS IN THE PAPER!

The paper can even claim, "Authorities have not commented on whether or not the new HSR track will be used by other trains in the meantime." If you don't ask, they don't tell. So its true, but extremely misleading.

You are getting information on California HSR from two sources: the media, biased towards newspaper sales and other things... and George Harris, a railroad engineer working on the project!

Who do you believe... the notoriously inaccurate media or somebody with firsthand knowledge?
 
Green Maned Lion said:
You are getting information on California HSR from two sources: the media, biased towards newspaper sales and other things... and George Harris, a railroad engineer working on the project!

Who do you believe... the notoriously inaccurate media or somebody with firsthand knowledge?
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Obviously GML I would defer to George. However, if the plan all along was to reroute the San Joaquins(I can never spell that) to the new alignment as it was completed to enhance the current service, then they did a **** poor job of communicating that didn't they.

And the Florida HSR thingy(the original topic) was turning into a giant boondoggle so on that I have to agree with you and others on here that oppose it in it's current form.

As I stated above, there seems to be no coherent plan for passenger rail, just a bunch of disjointed splinter groups, each with their own agenda. Whats needed is a national policy like the interstate highway project of the 1950's and 60's to really get the trains running. Not likely in today's political environment.
 

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