National Opt Out of the Airport Scanners Day
- Thread starter PetalumaLoco
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The Mods/Admins have discussed this one and the other similar thread.
I will open this back up, but as soon as the discussion starts getting off base, it will be shut down, again.
Likewise for the other one.
We all have opinions about these things, but, some of the things being said aren't needed.
Please, lets keep it civil if you add to this thread or the other one related to it.
Thanks!!
I will open this back up, but as soon as the discussion starts getting off base, it will be shut down, again.
Likewise for the other one.
We all have opinions about these things, but, some of the things being said aren't needed.
Please, lets keep it civil if you add to this thread or the other one related to it.
Thanks!!
PetalumaLoco
Conductor
Thank sir, fair enough.
Devil's Advocate
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How calm and reserved do you expect people to be about government-approved groping? Before you answer just think about that for a minute. I realize the staff here may be lucky enough to rarely fly but some of us have to fly regularly as part of our job or due to other time constraints placed on us. We are now being forced to choose between irradiation and vigorous groping with no other options available to us. It may mean little or nothing to you to live in a country that is happily shredding its founding documents, but for some of us this is a very serious issue worthy of frank and open discussions, not hyper-sensitive censorship.
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While I've been fortunate that I've not needed to fly in several years and have no desire to do so, Anthony is a semi-regular flyer, as are both Eric & Tom. In fact, both Anthony and Eric arrived at the recent Gathering by plane. Tom drove, while I took Amtrak.
Regarding censorship, we're talking more about heated arugments and posts that get too graphic, after all we do have minors as members and some folks are also just uncomfortable about such things.
Finally, it should be noted that this forum's reason for being is Amtrak. The fact that we're even allowing such a discussion is already saying a lot. We could have said just head to an airline forum to talk about this.
Now, mod hat off, here's my thoughts on this.
What a major mistake!
While I do understand the concept of a protest, and I do understand that many are upset with the new procedures and the machines, here's what I say this is a major mistake.
This is the busiest travel day of the year. If enough people participate in this protest, then there is going to be a whole lot of people who will miss having Thanksgiving dinner with their families. The TSA isn't going to suspend the rules for the day. Airlines not only cannot, but the will not, hold flights for people who cannot get through screening in time to catch their flight. With flights generally sold out, that means anyone missing their flight is probably not going to be able to get where they wanted to go, or they're going to arrive after the holiday is over on Friday.
The only way to avoid this is going to be to get to the airport 4 or 5 hours early, instead of the normal 2 or 3 that would be needed on such a busy day.
So the only people really getting hurt by this protest are the passengers. The TSA isn't going to care! The airlines aren't going care either and I rather doubt that they'll be issuing any refunds either.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't protest the new rules if they don't like them. After all free speech is one of our rights. I am saying however that I for one don't think that this is the right day to pick for the protest. I see lots of unhappy people missing their holiday with their friends & family if too many people do decide to protest.
Just my 2 cents.
What a major mistake!
While I do understand the concept of a protest, and I do understand that many are upset with the new procedures and the machines, here's what I say this is a major mistake.
This is the busiest travel day of the year. If enough people participate in this protest, then there is going to be a whole lot of people who will miss having Thanksgiving dinner with their families. The TSA isn't going to suspend the rules for the day. Airlines not only cannot, but the will not, hold flights for people who cannot get through screening in time to catch their flight. With flights generally sold out, that means anyone missing their flight is probably not going to be able to get where they wanted to go, or they're going to arrive after the holiday is over on Friday.
The only way to avoid this is going to be to get to the airport 4 or 5 hours early, instead of the normal 2 or 3 that would be needed on such a busy day.
So the only people really getting hurt by this protest are the passengers. The TSA isn't going to care! The airlines aren't going care either and I rather doubt that they'll be issuing any refunds either.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't protest the new rules if they don't like them. After all free speech is one of our rights. I am saying however that I for one don't think that this is the right day to pick for the protest. I see lots of unhappy people missing their holiday with their friends & family if too many people do decide to protest.
Just my 2 cents.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
That could be why they're doing it. On one of the busiest days of the year they can hold up the lines and create awareness of there cause. What better way then to shut down an entire airport filled with thousand of people.Like that guy who slipped by the TSA shutting down the entire airport including the planes.
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You are quite correct! That is absolutely why they are trying to do it that day.
I'm just not sure that having thousands of people who decide to join that protest and then miss having Thanksgiving with their families is the right choice. And I'm afraid that far too many people won't realize just what the consequences of their actions will be until it is too late.
Devil's Advocate
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If you don't think this lunacy will eventually be coming to Amtrak some day you're just fooling yourself. Unfortunately, by the time it gets to Amtrak it will probably be far too late to do much of anything about it. If I understand your concern correctly you're worried about people who have no specific problem with the continuous erosion of our Constitution so long as they don't have read about it on a train forum. We can address this by simply keeping the groping/irradiating topic in it's own thread. That allows folks who have a hard time living in the real world to simply avoid hearing anything about what's going on around them. As for kids, if they're really too young to read about this they're probably too young to understand what groping entails or why we're so concerned about it. I suppose we can continue to shield them from reality but chances are they'll eventually have to go through an airport at some point. If anything I'm more upset about what these rules may mean for American kids than for myself. I'm an adult. You can test the effects of irradiation on adults and get an idea of what the short term effects are. However, you can not test the effects of irradiation on kids -- by law. Unfortunately you can force kids to go through these currently untested machines in the name of our fake security theatrics. If we were a logical society you might think parents would be the people most concerned about irradiation vs. groping out of anyone. :excl:
Long Train Runnin'
Engineer
while i didn't see what happened in the original thread I was 16 when I joined the board, and appreciate what the mods have done. Even though now I am a legal adult I don't come here to read about people getting grouped.
I personally have never been through a full body scanner although my father who flies usually once a week hasn't seemed to mind the shift to body scanners, or at least hasn't mentioned going through them to me. The last time I flew I had a nice "S" printed on my ticket indicating I needed extra screening. Sadly this is not the first time I've been "randomly" selected for extra security. My previous TSA pat downs haven't been anything out of hand. In fact I've been more carefully frisked entering concert venues in my area.
I guess my question becomes where does TSA go from here? What happens when there is some kind of incident even after you go through a full body scanner, or receive your enhanced pat down?
I don't think Amtrak will ever have security quite like this. Where is the TSA going to set up there gear in places like Provo, UT or Beamount, Tx?
Ryan
Court Jester
The radiation from one scan is equivalent to the radiation that you get from cruising at altitude for 2 minutes. Utterly insignificant.
I'm more concerned about the people that don't care/don't know about this getting screwed over by people trying to make a point.
[citation needed]
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Devil's Advocate
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Then what are you doing here in this thread?
If you had bothered to read about this before posting you might have noticed that the groping directive has changed to be far more vigorous and intimate. Also, my job doesn't require me to visit a concert so I can easily avoid that eardrum blowing nonsense, unlike flying.
The only studies I've seen on these machines were funded by the very companies who sell them. Not surprisingly I don't consider them to be an objective analysis. Nor is there any law against funding a dozen closed studies and then only releasing the positive outcome of the one outlier that shows no ill effects.
If you don't like citizens challenging the erosion of their civil rights you're always free to go live in a dictatorship.
Where's yours? Maybe you should practice what you preach Ryan.
Ryan
Court Jester
Where did I say that I didn't like citizens challenging the erosion of their civil rights?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're perfectly aware of my source, since you attacked it. If you've got contradicting evidence, I can't wait to see it.
You'd do better to attack the substance of people's arguments rather then the person making the argument.
(on a train related note, I'm posting this while doing 125 MPH in Acela First Class - awesome!)
Devil's Advocate
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You said those who were taking a stand were screwing over the helpless comatose sheep among us. What exactly would you consider an acceptable major policy-confronting reaction by those of us who are fed up with the TSA? I'm just glad to see Americans finally taking a stand on something other than the "three G's." It's a rare event, far too rare if you ask me, and it's heartening to see people finally turning their words into action.
I have absolutely no idea what your source is because you have refused to give it.
What substance? Even when I asked for a citation you refused to provide one.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, but yes, we're all very happy that America has finally caught up with the cutting edge speeds of 1964.
No, you don't understand my concern at all. While I do agree that there are things in the past 10 years or so that have led to some erosion of our Constitution, this isn't one of them. No place in the Constitution are you granted the right to fly on an airplane, much less do so without passing through some form of security.
And the Constitutional rights regarding search and seizure do not apply here. You are not being forced to get on that plane. No one is barging into your house to conduct a search. You purchased a ticket to do something and through that act gave your consent. You had the right not to buy that ticket if you didn't want to submit. And most importantly, you are not on your private property, like you are in your car or your home.
Finally for the record, as I believe both Bill(PRR60) & Jishnu have publicly stated more than once around here, I too agree with them that much of what is being done in the name of security is useless. There are plenty of other far better things that could be done and aren't being done. I do think that we've gone over the top here with things and I don't agree with a lot of what is being done, but that doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with any Constitutional rights.
Devil's Advocate
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If you don't have a dog in this fight then feel free to sit this one out and stop suggesting that the rest of us shouldn't care either. You're still free to be irradiated as groped as much as you like. And I'll take my constitutional advice from people who don't have a history of blindly following the whims of authority figures while challenging anyone who speaks up.
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the_traveler
Engineer
Maybe at some stations like NYP, PHL, WAS or CHI where you have to go thru a gate to get to the train, but I doubt at KIN, where I go thru an open gate to get to the platform! And I really doubt that TSA is going to set them up and man them at an unstaffed station (such as Elko, NV) where the train stops at 1-2 AM!
Devil's Advocate
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I never said they'll be installed at every Amtrak station, in fact I'm sure they won't. But that's exactly what makes this whole thing all the more ludicrous.
First, you should really try reading what people write and stop seeing what you think they wrote. I never said or suggested that people shouldn't try to protest the new rules or that they shouldn't care. So stop putting words in my mouth! :angry2:
I did say that I felt that picking the Wednesday before Thanksgiving was a bad day to do any protest. And my reasons for that are simple; any substantial protest is going to mean that a whole lot of people are going to miss having Thanksgiving dinner with their friends & families. That IMHO is a very big price to ask people to pay. Perhaps 90% of America will disagree with me, but I don't think so.
So again, I think that the organizers should find a different day to do this protest. Especially since it's unlikely to change anything anyhow and will only hurt many people.
Second, you don't have to take Constitutional advice from me. If there were any Constitutional grounds, groups like the NAACP and so on would have already gone to court over these rules. They aren't because the best Constitutional lawyers have informed them that they have no case to bring. And again, the main reason that there is no case is because you are buying a ticket. Anyone can attach any terms that they want to a ticket. You have the choice not to buy that ticket and agree to their terms.
Only if the Fed said "from now on, any trip over 100 miles must be taken on a plane, would things potentially be changed." The Fed isn't saying that.
Finally, you have no idea about my history of anything beyond what I say here. However, topics like my criticism of SDS quite clearly prove that I'm more than willing to challenge the whims of authority figures.
Additionally this is exactly the type of discussion that you were warned about back at the beginning of this thread. In fact, had your post been directed at any other member of this forum, it would already be gone. Insulting members is one of the few, hard & fast rules we have around here.
Now if you actually want to discuss things, please feel free to do so. But any more insults from you will find their way into the trash can and may well lead to the closure of this topic.
Devil's Advocate
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And I happen to think perpetual groping and irradiation is a bigger price to pay than being late to the caloric orgy Thanksgiving has become. I also think civil disobedience should be undertaken on the day it will have the most impact instead of on a day when few will notice or care. But maybe that's just me. If you expect the constitution to spell out precisely how much tyranny is allowed or not allowed in America you won't find it written anywhere in that document. However, that doesn't mean American citizens should just immediately accept defeat every time their privacy is ignored by an ever more belligerent government. I believe the spirit of the constitution is just as relevant and worthy of protection as the application of legal enforcement. And the spirit of that document is definitely under attack from what I can see. We may not be able to actively defend every attack on the constitution in court, and even when we can it costs a lot of money that's hard to come by in poor economic times like this. However, that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to defend it by those means which are still available to us. This isn't a one-way street, people who strongly disagree with the event are still free to promote an anti-action campaign asking everyone to stay home or drive. After all, as you've made abundantly clear none of us are actually being forced to fly anywhere, so what's the big deal?
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Ryan
Court Jester
Are you so blind that you're complete unable to see any middle ground between screwing over thousands of Americans and a willingness to live under the kind of totalitarian regime that you're imagining?
That didn't stop you from ranting and raving about how it was invalid.
Nothing at all, I just thought that since we're on a board talking about Amtrak that it would be of interest.
Here's a citation for you - if you have an issue with it, take it up with Reuters or the FAA.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60553920100106
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Devil's Advocate
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In the English language rant generally refers to negative comments while rave generally refers to positive comments, so you might want to pick one or the other next time, but not both.
All I see there is that the "two minutes of flying" soundbite actually comes from the TSA itself and that no study details or methodology are included in the article. In other words, easily repeatable sound bites with no actual substance behind them.
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No argument that many will stuff their faces on that Thursday. But it is about more than just that. This is one of the few times of the year that families get together. Brother & sisters, parents & grandparents, people who may not see each other for months on end due to the distances involved and the rigors of daily life.
As someone who just 8 months ago carried his father to his final rest, I can assure you that those moments are important and precious. In fact, one of the bigger problems that I believe faces our country and society in general is the lack of family for so many. Granted big weekends like this aren't going to solve that problem all on its own, but it is a start and it is a reminder to try and do better.
I'm not expecting the Constitution to spell anything out for me, although I do have a very good understanding of it.
I'm basing my statements upon the fact that there are any number of civil rights lawyers that would love to sink their teeth into any Constitutional issues and get their names in the paper if they could. The fact that none are stepping up to the plate to do so tells me that they know that this is not a Constitutional issue. It would get tossed out of court long before it ever got near the Supreme Court.
It would probably be thrown out of the first court to see the case, and it's doubtful that any appeals court would even hear an appeal much less force the court to have a trial. There is no Constitutional issue to attack in this case.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Are we talking here of the mm radiation devices or the backscatter X-Ray devices? My understanding is that there are some doubts about the X-Ray devices, or so said a biophysicist professor whose opinion I trust more on such matters than AFAIK anyone on this forum. However, since I am no expert I won't argue the point. I'd just want to see an impartial study that does not involve the manufacturer of the devices or the TSA as funding source. If I can find such a study then I'd take it to him and ask him about what he thinks of it. I hasten to add that none of you have to believe or not any of this because I say so.
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